Uselessness of kata in the real world!

I didn't post a Kyokushin video because it wasn't the first video that came up when I googled "kata" videos... didn't you read my post? I explained it to you. I'm starting to believe you are arguing with a fictional version of me that has said things I haven't, and not said things I have.

Do you think I have a problem with kata?
I'm sorry, I might be having flashbacks to 20 years ago when everyone who watched UFC was suddenly convinced my training was crap, and was happy to tell me, even though their best skill was choosing clothes to wear to school, and I was learning grapple fu (starting with wrestling forms).

Pedantic? My argument is that it's all semantics. Kata is a veeeeerrrrry broad term that goes back to before the history of Japan, so it should be used with caution alongside absolutes like "useless".
 
Many people may say that the Taiji outside crescent kick can be a foot sweep. But in order to make a foot sweep work, many key requirements are missing in Taiji outside crescent kick.

This is the problem for "abstract" form training. You may think you are training a certain skill, but the truth is you are not.

What will you do if you want to learn hip throw, but your forms don't have it?
There are all kinds of things that my forms do not have. That does not mean my forms donā€™t have huge value. Weā€™ve been over this many times: forms are one tool, of many, in oneā€™s toolbox. Anyone who does nothing but forms is not training optimally. Forms are not meant to be the end-all. I donā€™t really understand why people want to pretend this hasnā€™t been addressed already, many times.

Anyone who does only heavybag work would also be deficient. This is no mystery. Training needs several components. None of this is meant to stand alone.
 
That's exactly what I was trying to say. One should go beyond his forms.

A: In this form, you will learn everything that you need.
B: Where is hip throw, flying knee, flying side kick, spin kook kick, outer leg twisting, ...
Krav Maga is a good example of a style that tries to do this (cover every base) but flies or dies based on how the person actually trains. Dead or alive, you're gonna have a bad day if you don't train right.

That's how you end up with an art with such diversity in terms of fighting skill. Some are silly, others are literal killers.

And if you watch any of the old clips when it was founded, maintaining the forms of older arts was pretty important.
 
I understand.

"aliveness" in the martial arts sense has a very specific meaning, according to certain "modern" schools, and it's not a new concept, obviously sparring has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Roman gladiators sparred, Chinese soldiers sparred, Indian warriors sparred. Whether or not its practiced in a particular school today depends on specifics.

But I think the answer to your question is simple, if you want to keep it specific to Japanese kata. Kata is not for leaning to fight. Never was. It's for learning movements that were developed from older movement sets, a long time ago. Any one of us here who knows a little boxing and a little kata could probably created a 100 move Boxing Kata form containing nothing but functional movements. Without sparring with them, they'd be nothing more than practice, though.

When boxers learn their first movements, they learn dead forms and patterns (kata, in the literal sense), before they ever hit anyone for real. They learn form/pattern and the functional use/skill comes later on. Nobody goes into a boxing gym, gets thrown into the ring, and is told "just go". It just so happens you'll probably be able to do that in a short time, because boxing forms are pretty simple and limited to a small range of attacks and defenses.

As long as something in karate, kung fu, or boxing instills some sort of benefit, it's not "useless". The Shaolin fom you posted teaches balance, grace, and flexibility, and contains specific techniques that can be drilled or sparred with alive. So that video is not representative. The karate kata teaches energetic movement, intention, focus. Also not representative of how kata movements are utilized in full contact competition.

If kata were truly useless, they'd have died out a long time ago. They'd have been left behind for impracticality. Yet millions of people find them helpful, compared to the few critics, and quite a few of their proponents are, and always have been, successful, full contact fighters who train "alive".
I think your logic is a little squirrelly. Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another. A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.

That said, I donā€™t believe kata are useless. I donā€™t think itā€™s all that efficient, but inefficient isnā€™t necessarily a bad thing .

Last thing is, I donā€™t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not. I just donā€™t think every pattern is a kata. If we canā€™t agree that boxers donā€™t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.
 
I'm sorry, I might be having flashbacks to 20 years ago when everyone who watched UFC was suddenly convinced my training was crap, and was happy to tell me, even though their best skill was choosing clothes to wear to school, and I was learning grapple fu (starting with wrestling forms).

Pedantic? My argument is that it's all semantics. Kata is a veeeeerrrrry broad term that goes back to before the history of Japan, so it should be used with caution alongside absolutes like "useless".
So at least we now agree that kata is Japanese. Thatā€™s a start. šŸ˜‚
 
I think your logic is a little squirrelly. Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another. A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.

That said, I donā€™t believe kata are useless. I donā€™t think itā€™s all that efficient, but inefficient isnā€™t necessarily a bad thing .

Last thing is, I donā€™t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not. I just donā€™t think every pattern is a kata. If we canā€™t agree that boxers donā€™t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.
Every pattern is kata. It's just basic Japanese language. The southern Chinese name for it is "jing", "hing". "hying". I could bore you with paragraphs about the 5, 10, 36 Hying Fist.

Or I can agree with you that not everything that boxers do is kata, but it's definitely how they learn boxing. Through patterns.

å½¢​

 
There are all kinds of things that my forms do not have. That does not mean my forms donā€™t have huge value. Weā€™ve been over this many times: forms are one tool, of many, in oneā€™s toolbox. Anyone who does nothing but forms is not training optimally. Forms are not meant to be the end-all. I donā€™t really understand why people want to pretend this hasnā€™t been addressed already, many times.

Anyone who does only heavybag work would also be deficient. This is no mystery. Training needs several components. None of this is meant to stand alone.
Every pattern is kata. It's just basic Japanese language. The southern Chinese name for it is "jing", "hing". "hying".

I can agree with you that not everything that boxers do is kata, but it's definitely how they learn boxing. Through patterns.

å½¢​

Do I need to post those videos again?
 
Do I need to post those videos again?
I'd prefer you post new videos, but that's just me. I just see patterns all the way down.

Let me ask you a new question: how many people who want to learn boxing actually learn it? 10%? Kata has a much higher acceptance rate, doesn't it?
 
I'd prefer you post new videos, but that's just me. I just see patterns all the way down.

I could google some new videos, but if you donā€™t see a difference between the ones I already posted, I donā€™t think it will make a difference.
Let me ask you a new question: how many people who want to learn boxing actually learn it? 10%? Kata has a much higher acceptance rate, doesn't it?
I must not get your point because I think 100% of folks who have boxed have learned to box. And 100% of people who have done kata have learned kata.
 
I could google some new videos, but if you donā€™t see a difference between the ones I already posted, I donā€™t think it will make a difference.

I must not get your point because I think 100% of folks who have boxed have learned to box. And 100% of people who have done kata have learned kata.

That's 100%. I agree.

It's all kata.
 
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On a different/same note, I understand what he says and can agree with it up to a point. Reason I am saying up to a point is that a lot of Krav Maga seems to be using that model to teach and by the end of a curriculum most people end up fighting with relatively weak MMA skills and add a few groin shots/illegal moves to UFC and that is the result. Of course this is a stereotype but

Those angles, the foot work the tactics are still technical details. Timing as well. It is just a different technical detail. And you do learn them if you have a good instructor.

Being able to perform good ring craft with good timing makes your whole Fighting better.

So fighting with relatively weak MMA skills (or better yet good ones) is almost the aim. Because the Timing, the angles and the little details that allow you to succeed in that environment are these more meta skills.
 
I think your logic is a little squirrelly. Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another. A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.

That said, I donā€™t believe kata are useless. I donā€™t think itā€™s all that efficient, but inefficient isnā€™t necessarily a bad thing .

Last thing is, I donā€™t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not. I just donā€™t think every pattern is a kata. If we canā€™t agree that boxers donā€™t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.

If kata was just movement training then it would be pretty reasonable. And the less realistic the better.

Bunkai is where stuff gets weird.
 
I am Chinese. I learn REAL traditional chinese martial arts.

I am shocked & speechless when you guys ****** (non chinese) who are like frogs in the well - pretend to be expert saying something stupid about how uselessness of kata all over the internet !
Do you know Okinawa Karate was evolved from White Crane Fist ? White Crane Fist is a type of traditional chinese martial arts .
The REAL TRADITIONAL Form /Kata IS NOT- shadow boxing, punching air , stupid dancing or whatever you think!

These masters fought to the death in the past ! Do you think they would risk their lives to create unrealistic kata/ forms?
The Kata is the soul. Your fighting skills all come from Kata !
Kata consists of few parts :
A) external body movements - 30%
B) internal neigong system - 30%
C) fighting theory & chinese philosopy ( secret kung fu manual script written by the founder ) -30%
D) hardworking & wisdom -10%

So why you guys ***** complain that kata is uselessness in fighting?
only three reasons:

1 ) You learn incomplete part of kata (part A) !
the kata is just a dance without part b, c and d ! The master only teach part b&c to his favorite children/
students. So in one generation only 2-3 students who can 100% master the secret!

2) You don't understand the language & philosophy
eg: Do yo know the meaning of ä»„ęŸ”å…‹åˆš from martial arts aspectļ¼Ÿ what is qi ( 갔) ?
what is yin yang (阓阳ļ¼‰ļ¼Ÿ

So how can you understand the fighting style if you don't understand the meaning? Everyone mistaken thought that taijiquan ļ¼ˆ å¤Ŗęžę‹³ļ¼‰is wrestling, grappling or yoga . Because you watched some stupid videos from
YOUTUBE ( I laughed so hard! LFMao!!!)


3) You learn from McDojo!
 
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Racist idiots invariably resort to racism when they feel threatened or insecure.

You guys love to 'hijack' other nation's culture and destroy them !

Look what you guys have done to the Pizza? Now I can understand Italian's feeling when you put pineapple on pizza. LOL

Look at the comments / videos posted in this forum , YouTube etc......

If you guys opened a dojo, I feel pity to the students. They spent a lot of money and time ( may be more than a decade) to learn. At the end, the students noticed that it is not working and blamed us Asian traditional martial arts is useless!

I am not racist. I am criticize you guysā€˜ learning attitude!
If you want to learn Asian Traditional Martial Arts, please LEARN the language and culture first!
The Asian teachers are not good in English ! In addition to that, there is no suitable/such English vocabulary
to explain the terms or theory.

You CANNOT learn REAL martial arts from internet !
The information on the internet may not be accurate, you have to use your intelligence to analyses it.
Have you ever seen warren buffett opens a FREE online class to teach you how to win a big money from stock market?
Human are selfishļ¼Think about itļ¼


You understand my meaning? Mr. White?
 
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I am Chinese. I learn REAL traditional chinese martial arts.

I am shocked & speechless when you guys ****** (non chinese) who are like frogs in the well - pretend to be expert saying something stupid about how uselessness of kata all over the internet !
Do you know Okinawa Karate was evolved from White Crane Fist ? White Crane Fist is a type of traditional chinese martial arts .
The REAL TRADITIONAL Form /Kata IS NOT- shadow boxing, punching air , stupid dancing or whatever you think!

These masters fought to the death in the past ! Do you think they would risk their lives to create unrealistic kata/ forms?
The Kata is the soul. Your fighting skills all come from Kata !
Kata consists of few parts :
A) external body movements - 30%
B) internal neigong system - 30%
C) fighting theory & chinese philosopy ( secret kung fu manual script written by the founder ) -30%
D) hardworking & wisdom -10%

So why you guys ***** complain that kata is uselessness in fighting?
only three reasons:

1 ) You learn incomplete part of kata (part A) !
the kata is just a dance without part b, c and d ! The master only teach part b&c to his favorite children/
students. So in one generation only 2-3 students who can 100% master the secret!

2) You don't understand the language & philosophy
eg: Do yo know the meaning of ä»„ęŸ”å…‹åˆš from martial arts aspectļ¼Ÿ what is qi ( 갔) ?
what is yin yang (阓阳ļ¼‰ļ¼Ÿ

So how can you understand the fighting style if you don't understand the meaning? Everyone mistaken thought that taijiquan ļ¼ˆ å¤Ŗęžę‹³ļ¼‰is wrestling, grappling or yoga . Because you watched some stupid videos from
YOUTUBE ( I laughed so hard! LFMao!!!)


3) You learn from McDojo!
The concept of Yin/Yang is not at all exclusive to China, duality and its interactions is deeply rooted in all humanity it is at our core of existence, itā€™s just that most are too distracted to deeply ponder about it, even Chinese folks.

ā€œQiā€ - Also a concept to be found in many cultures outside of China, in the West it was called ā€œAetherā€ and was once part of the periodic table, but was discarded since it was too abstract and unscientific,likewise in the martial arts also many Chinese canā€™t really explain it and those who think they can doesnā€™t make much sense to anything anyway..

The ā€œä»„ęŸ”å…‹åˆšā€ is also not a unique concept to China, it dwell into Yin/Yang - softness vs righty, example - in Christianity concept of meekness trump brutish, of course also here many have difficulty in applying this, chinese as well as people in other cultures .
 
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