Use of Force Law

[Juany118]

I.E., goading?

PA law does have a "goading" exception as well. Not sure about Florida, I'll have to research that one.

 

[Transk53]

PA law does have a "goading" exception as well. Not sure about Florida, I'll have to research that one.

I wonder if there is a sliding scale on goading. With you lot the threat level is more significant IMHO

 

[stonewall1350]

The last bit can be a bit questionable. If the only witnesses are the person who used lethal force and the dead person there becomes an issue. Additionally, unless they have amended the law this is an issue that raises a similar question. Drug dealer used 'stand your ground' to avoid charges in two killings

The head aches of the Florida Statute actually informed PA's when it was written so there are exceptions such as (paraphrase) "this law does not apply during the commission of a crime." So if you are a person not to possess or are slinging dope at the time you can't claim "stand your ground."

Florida SYG law removes duty to retreat. That is all it does. Per Section 776.013 (use of force law)

Below is the link to the law removing our Duty to Retreat (aka Stand your ground)

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

2c-d)

(c) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force is engaged in a criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further a criminal activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

I know our law was fumbled a little bit RIGHT when I got my concealed, but has since been updated to be more logical. If you are in the act of committing a crime...the law does not apply.


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[Juany118]

Florida SYG law removes duty to retreat. That is all it does. Per Section 776.013

2c-d)

(c) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force is engaged in a criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further a criminal activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

I know our law was fumbled a little bit RIGHT when I got my concealed, but has since been updated to be more logical. If you are in the act of committing a crime...the law does not apply.


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Oh I didn't know about the amendments made later, my bad. I was simply remembering having DAs going en mass to Harrisburg to lobby for what you noted above in the PA law (which was passed shortly after FLs) pointing to the lack of said provisions in FL as an example of how not to do it. Thanks for the update

 

[stonewall1350]

Duplicate ooops

 

[stonewall1350]

Oh I didn't know about the amendments made later, my bad. I was simply remembering having DAs going en mass to Harrisburg to lobby for what you noted above in the PA law (which was passed shortly after FLs) pointing to the lack of said provisions in FL as an example of how not to do it. Thanks for the update

No problem.

I am pretty up to date because of having my concealed carry. I don't like not knowing legislation. Plus our laws are REALLY easy to read. They have to reference the laws to which they refer and quote them. It is nice.


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[PhotonGuy]

Use Of Deadly Force:
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

Again that depends on how you define deadly force. Supposedly any sort of strike to the head can be defined as deadly force in court.

 

[Tez3]

Again that depends on how you define deadly force. Supposedly any sort of strike to the head can be defined as deadly force in court.

Just no.

 

[jks9199]

Again that depends on how you define deadly force. Supposedly any sort of strike to the head can be defined as deadly force in court.

No. There is a legal definition of deadly force. Deadly force is that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death. Or, in the code you replied to -- "imminent death or great bodily harm." Pretty much synonymous. The definition is consistent across courts and many countries, even. Sometimes there's arguments about what amounts to "serious bodily harm" -- but it pretty typically amounts to injury that will significantly impair or impede normal function in life.

 

[Juany118]

No. There is a legal definition of deadly force. Deadly force is that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death. Or, in the code you replied to -- "imminent death or great bodily harm." Pretty much synonymous. The definition is consistent across courts and many countries, even. Sometimes there's arguments about what amounts to "serious bodily harm" -- but it pretty typically amounts to injury that will significantly impair or impede normal function in life.

Pretty much. I think sometimes people may get a "red zone" via the UoF continuum confused with lethal force.

 

[wingchun100]

Oh my bad...after reading through some of the exchanges, I thought I was on the Wing Chun forum for a moment. How has this not gotten locked down yet? LOL

 

[PhotonGuy]

No. There is a legal definition of deadly force. Deadly force is that which is likely to cause serious bodily harm or death. Or, in the code you replied to -- "imminent death or great bodily harm." Pretty much synonymous. The definition is consistent across courts and many countries, even. Sometimes there's arguments about what amounts to "serious bodily harm" -- but it pretty typically amounts to injury that will significantly impair or impede normal function in life.

Striking to the head has a good chance of knocking out teeth, breaking noses and so forth both of which fall under the category of great bodily harm.

 

[Transk53]

Striking to the head has a good chance of knocking out teeth, breaking noses and so forth both of which fall under the category of great bodily harm.

Yes but not deadly force. The repercussions could be though. Say trauma caused when they hit the deck. Likely would result in being charged with manslaughter.

 

[Tgace]

Striking to the head has a good chance of knocking out teeth, breaking noses and so forth both of which fall under the category of great bodily harm.

Have you ever arrested or charged someone with assault/battery/harassment, or been involved in a prosecution for same? I think some of us have a pretty good grip at what qualifies ad deadly physical force and what doesn't within our particular jurisdictions.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Have you ever arrested or charged someone with assault/battery/harassment, or been involved in a prosecution for same? I think some of us have a pretty good grip at what qualifies ad deadly physical force and what doesn't within our particular jurisdictions.

I've never been involved in any legalities regarding the use of force in a confrontation but I know of people that have.

 

[jks9199]

I've never been involved in any legalities regarding the use of force in a confrontation but I know of people that have.

You know of... or you know? Either way -- you're missing the point. Several of us INSTRUCT this stuff. You're playing semantic games without getting the underlying point. There is a fairly specific definition of what constitutes "lethal force" and "serious bodily injury", and while there is some variation across jurisdictions, or even from one judge or prosecutor to the next -- by and large, they're all in the same wheelhouse. You're trying to suggest that a broken nose or even some missing teeth are on the same level as amputation of a limb, lacerations or incisions that threaten bleeding out, or other injuries that have a major impact on ordinary daily functioning of life. Now, there are indeed times and circumstances that might escalate any blow to the head to lethal force, they're generally pretty rare. And, of course, when you throw the punch, you buy anything that might be seen as springing from it, so if they guy falls and cracks his skull on a rock, you're screwed... Then there are all the trained fighter arguments...

 

[PhotonGuy]

You know of... or you know? Either way -- you're missing the point. Several of us INSTRUCT this stuff. You're playing semantic games without getting the underlying point. There is a fairly specific definition of what constitutes "lethal force" and "serious bodily injury", and while there is some variation across jurisdictions, or even from one judge or prosecutor to the next -- by and large, they're all in the same wheelhouse. You're trying to suggest that a broken nose or even some missing teeth are on the same level as amputation of a limb, lacerations or incisions that threaten bleeding out, or other injuries that have a major impact on ordinary daily functioning of life. Now, there are indeed times and circumstances that might escalate any blow to the head to lethal force, they're generally pretty rare. And, of course, when you throw the punch, you buy anything that might be seen as springing from it, so if they guy falls and cracks his skull on a rock, you're screwed... Then there are all the trained fighter arguments...

I know specific examples of people getting in trouble causing specific levels of injury in confrontations. I know of a martial arts student who was charged and convicted of a felony for knocking a guy's teeth out in a confrontation although the circumstances leading up to the confrontation no doubt played a big role in his conviction. I do not consider knocking out teeth to be at the same level as some of the other injuries that you suggest such as amputation of a limb, lacerations, ect. but its not about what I consider it to be its about what the law considers it to be. In some states broken bones and knocking out teeth fall under the category of "grave bodily harm" and carry that weight in court.

 

[jks9199]

I know specific examples of people getting in trouble causing specific levels of injury in confrontations. I know of a martial arts student who was charged and convicted of a felony for knocking a guy's teeth out in a confrontation although the circumstances leading up to the confrontation no doubt played a big role in his conviction. I do not consider knocking out teeth to be at the same level as some of the other injuries that you suggest such as amputation of a limb, lacerations, ect. but its not about what I consider it to be its about what the law considers it to be. In some states broken bones and knocking out teeth fall under the category of "grave bodily harm" and carry that weight in court.

Yes, charged with a felony for knocking teeth out. Probably malicious wounding or aggravsted assault depending on state code. That doesn't make it lethal force. Find and cite a specific case or code section equating a broken limb, knocked out teeth, even broken ribs with lethal force, rather than serious injury by itself. Knock a guy's tooth out, he falls, and suffers a depressed skull fracture hittibg the curb, and you might well find yourself charged with manslaughter. Notice the added factor?

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[Tgace]

Yes, charged with a felony for knocking teeth out. Probably malicious wounding or aggravsted assault depending on state code. That doesn't make it lethal force. Find and cite a specific case or code section equating a broken limb, knocked out teeth, even broken ribs with lethal force, rather than serious injury by itself. Knock a guy's tooth out, he falls, and suffers a depressed skull fracture hittibg the curb, and you might well find yourself charged with manslaughter. Notice the added factor?

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Exactly. And even then...depending on all the circumstances...you may not get convicted.

 

[Tez3]

Oliver Dearlove: Banker killed with 'single punch' for talking to women - BBC News


This is a current court case going on here, no verdict yet as it's still ongoing. It would be interesting to read how people think it will go and/or what they think he should have been charged with.