The law concering self defense and use of force without guns

[Steve]

I did further research, it is only U.S. Gaum, and that is questionable. I was in young teens when I first heard about it, yes, a very long tome ago lol. It seemed it was a fad that started with boxers and that, but it was a false fad. I apologize to everyone for mistakenly remembering something from my much younger years, it sucks getting old lol.

Happens to us all. Thanks.

 

[Steve]

In my much younger years it did, as soon as you become a blackbelt, you needed to register your hands as deadly weapons. I know, sounds stupid, but some states were or still are like that.

This is something we've heard before. But you know, I have an idea. While you don't HAVE to register your hands as a deadly weapon, there is nothing that says you aren't ALLOWED to do so. If you wanted to, you could create a document that certifies your hands are deadly weapons. Make sure it meets the formatting and indexing requirements of your county recorder's office. You could add whatever you like to it, get it notarized and then have it recorded at your county courthouse for a minimal fee.

Would it do anything for you? No. Not a thing. Well, maybe one thing. You could then come to a website like this and say you did it, and then prove it.

 

[Yanli]

This is something we've heard before. But you know, I have an idea. While you don't HAVE to register your hands as a deadly weapon, there is nothing that says you aren't ALLOWED to do so. If you wanted to, you could create a document that certifies your hands are deadly weapons. Make sure it meets the formatting and indexing requirements of your county recorder's office. You could add whatever you like to it, get it notarized and then have it recorded at your county courthouse for a minimal fee.

Would it do anything for you? No. Not a thing. Well, maybe one thing. You could then come to a website like this and say you did it, and then prove it.

Yes, if you want that hype lol, I would rather get the hype that I am a sex god, but at 57 years old, not likely lol.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I did further research, it is only U.S. Gaum, and that is questionable. I was in young teens when I first heard about it, yes, a very long tome ago lol. It seemed it was a fad that started with boxers and that, but it was a false fad. I apologize to everyone for mistakenly remembering something from my much younger years, it sucks getting old lol.

So this is going by my own memory, which can also be faulty, but I think I might know what you misremembered.

I believe the WBA has (or had) a rule that boxers were not allowed to engage in fights with 'civilians', with the penalty being that you'd be kicked out of the organization and lose any rankings/titles/be unable to fight with them anymore. That could pretty easily turn into boxers saying that they're too dangerous to fight on the streets and I think is the start of a lot of those "martial artists hands are deadly weapons" rumors that existed.

@lklawson who already commented in this thread may actually know more about if that was a rule and what happened (or didn't happen) to it.

 

[lklawson]

I did further research, it is only U.S. Gaum, and that is questionable. I was in young teens when I first heard about it, yes, a very long tome ago lol. It seemed it was a fad that started with boxers and that, but it was a false fad. I apologize to everyone for mistakenly remembering something from my much younger years, it sucks getting old lol.

It's true that this was an old wives tale in the Martial Arts community going back to at least the '70s.

That said, there's a kernel of honesty in it, in that "trained fighters" have been held to a higher standard in courts on various occasions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It's true that this was an old wives tale in the Martial Arts community going back to at least the '70s.

That said, there's a kernel of honesty in it, in that "trained fighters" have been held to a higher standard in courts on various occasions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Here are two. If you search you can find more, but this is a quick start.

MMA fighter given six years in jail for using hands as deadly weapons

An MMA fighter in Texas is going to jail for a long time partly because authorities deemed his hands to be "deadly weapons" due to his skills. 27-year-old

www.bloodyelbow.com

Judge rules martial arts fighter's hands and feet are 'deadly weapons' in road rage attack

Judge John Hurley said given the specialised fight training of Fernando Rodrigues (pictured), his hands and feet were as lethal a gun or knife.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Yes, if you want that hype lol, I would rather get the hype that I am a sex god, but at 57 years old, not likely lol.

I think I may have discovered my new side hustle... selling as a service certificates that formally "certify" people for various things. Want to be a certified Dancing Queen? What about a Sex God? Perhaps you'd like to register yourself as a Self Defense Expert? I got you.

Are you a member of the Black Belt Hall of Fame? No? I can fix that, for a nominal fee.

Want to be the grandmaster of your own kombucha of bushido? I can make it official.

Come on down to Steve's Certification Emporium, where I will ensure your certification is "officially" documented with the government. In the spirit of Thorstein Veblen, "Your ceremonial adequacy IS the mission."

 

[Yanli]

It's true that this was an old wives tale in the Martial Arts community going back to at least the '70s.

That said, there's a kernel of honesty in it, in that "trained fighters" have been held to a higher standard in courts on various occasions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It is very true that courts held MA's at a higher standard as well other professional fighters. The courts feel that if you do not inform a possible attacker that you are a professional fighter and that you took the most passive way possible, then the courts will find you liable for any injury. You have to prove to the court that you did not instigate the fight and that you were as passive as you can be. I find this ridiculous to a degree, if your tooo passive, you could end up with the injuries, and you can not always prove your side.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think I may have discovered my new side hustle... selling as a service certificates that formally "certify" people for various things. Want to be a certified Dancing Queen? What about a Sex God? Perhaps you'd like to register yourself as a Self Defense Expert? I got you.

Are you a member of the Black Belt Hall of Fame? No? I can fix that, for a nominal fee.

Want to be the grandmaster of your own kombucha of bushido? I can make it official.

Come on down to Steve's Certification Emporium, where I will ensure your certification is "officially" documented with the government. In the spirit of Thorstein Veblen, "Your ceremonial adequacy IS the mission."

You could probably legitimately get money from that. It'd be more gag gifts than anything, but I could see people buying it.

 

[Yanli]

I think I may have discovered my new side hustle... selling as a service certificates that formally "certify" people for various things. Want to be a certified Dancing Queen? What about a Sex God? Perhaps you'd like to register yourself as a Self Defense Expert? I got you.

Are you a member of the Black Belt Hall of Fame? No? I can fix that, for a nominal fee.

Want to be the grandmaster of your own kombucha of bushido? I can make it official.

Come on down to Steve's Certification Emporium, where I will ensure your certification is "officially" documented with the government. In the spirit of Thorstein Veblen, "Your ceremonial adequacy IS the mission."

I would love a certificate that I am a sex god, but I think woman will still laugh at me, especially my wife lol. I have tried for 37 years to get her to call me lord and master, I can't even get her to call me master, not even my female students lol. OF course telling them to kneel before me and kiss my feet problem didn't help, but hey, an old man has to have his dreams lol.

 

[lklawson]

It is very true that courts held MA's at a higher standard as well other professional fighters. The courts feel that if you do not inform a possible attacker that you are a professional fighter and that you took the most passive way possible, then the courts will find you liable for any injury.

Well, no. That's not how it works.

You have to prove to the court that you did not instigate the fight

That's true for anyone. You can't be what's often legally defined as "The Initial Aggressor."

and that you were as passive as you can be.

Well, no.

I find this ridiculous to a degree, if your tooo passive, you could end up with the injuries, and you can not always prove your side.

No. Courts have sometimes held "trained martial artists" to a higher standard or duty of care. In those cases, they have found that the training should have meant that the martial artist (boxer, whatever) should have been able to mitigate their level of force enough to not kill.

There's a difference between that and "being forced to be as passive as possible."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

You might find this one interesting.

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1353&context=mslj

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Yanli]

Well, no. That's not how it works.


That's true for anyone. You can't be what's often legally defined as "The Initial Aggressor."


Well, no.


No. Courts have sometimes held "trained martial artists" to a higher standard or duty of care. In those cases, they have found that the training should have meant that the martial artist (boxer, whatever) should have been able to mitigate their level of force enough to not kill.

There's a difference between that and "being forced to be as passive as possible."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I was not speaking to the degree of killing, more to the degree of avoiding doing serious injury. The court will look at your skill level and try to determine what degree of force you should of only used, this can often be a very grey line.

 

[J. Pickard]

This is a very great misrepresentation of the Zimmerman case. Among other things, Zimmerman never used "Stand Your Ground" defense.

I openly admit that this was an oversimplification but nothing I stated was false even if it was out of context, however the stand your ground laws were a big part of the Zimmerman case. As stated from this Washington Post article --
As a legal matter, Zimmerman’s attorney did not raise a “stand your ground” defense at the trial. But after the trial a juror acknowledged that jurors had discussed the self-defense law before finding Zimmerman not guilty. The law also changed the standard instructions to jurors in homicide cases, so that the judge said that Zimmerman had no duty to retreat and could stand his ground if he felt threatened. (The law may have also played a role in the initial failure of the local police to prosecute Zimmerman.)

One self defense lawyer that I've read and watched likes to say that in any self defense case, no matter how justified, there is a non-zero chance that you will go to prison for the rest of your life.

This was my main point that I was trying to get across and its something that I personally believe should be addressed more if a school is claiming to teach a self-defense program.

 

[Yanli]

I openly admit that this was an oversimplification but nothing I stated was false even if it was out of context, however the stand your ground laws were a big part of the Zimmerman case. As stated from this Washington Post article --
As a legal matter, Zimmerman’s attorney did not raise a “stand your ground” defense at the trial. But after the trial a juror acknowledged that jurors had discussed the self-defense law before finding Zimmerman not guilty. The law also changed the standard instructions to jurors in homicide cases, so that the judge said that Zimmerman had no duty to retreat and could stand his ground if he felt threatened. (The law may have also played a role in the initial failure of the local police to prosecute Zimmerman.)

This was my main point that I was trying to get across and its something that I personally believe should be addressed more if a school is claiming to teach a self-defense program.

I do not know how most of today's schools teach, but I teach as I was taught, there are three forms of fighting "passive, passive aggressive, and aggressive", and we need to recognize which form is needed. I see so many skilled MA forget everything that they have learned, and revert back to street fighting.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I luckily have not had an issue with the law for defending myself, but a story that I heard many years ago from another MA instructor. A instructor encountered a fight at a bar, he tried to break it up, and in that attempt a strike was thrown at him. The instructor out of reflects blocked the punch and countered with a punch, and he broke the guys jaw. The instructor got arrested and sued because he did not show his card indicating his hands are deadly. The court said he should of shown his card before trying to break up the fight, the court and the lawmakers do not seem to realize what would happen in that attempt.

Baloney.

 

[jks9199]

I luckily have not had an issue with the law for defending myself, but a story that I heard many years ago from another MA instructor. A instructor encountered a fight at a bar, he tried to break it up, and in that attempt a strike was thrown at him. The instructor out of reflects blocked the punch and countered with a punch, and he broke the guys jaw. The instructor got arrested and sued because he did not show his card indicating his hands are deadly. The court said he should of shown his card before trying to break up the fight, the court and the lawmakers do not seem to realize what would happen in that attempt.

Tell me where this happened... State and city.

I"ve never heard of any true "hand registration" anywhere. Maybe in some other part of the world -- but not in the USA. I know that if you walk into my station and try to register your hands... Well, if you're lucky, the laughter will be gentle. Being sued or arrested for sticking your nose into a fight? That's quite possible, especially if you cause serious injury when you intervene. You take your victim as you find him, and you'd better know who was in the right if you're going to jump into the battle.

 

[jks9199]

Unless you live in Guam, this is not true at all. Even in Guam, there's no card, you are just supposed to register as a deadly weapon. No card is given out.

What's weird there is you register with the department of revenue and taxation, which seems like an odd place to do it.

Interesting; I'd never heard of that in Guam.

 

[jks9199]

I was not speaking to the degree of killing, more to the degree of avoiding doing serious injury. The court will look at your skill level and try to determine what degree of force you should of only used, this can often be a very grey line.

No -- the court will assess whether the force you used was reasonably appropriate to the situation. A judge or jury MAY hold a martial artist to a higher standard of control or response -- but the ultimate question is simply whether or not the force used was reasonably likely to safely end the situation without doing unnecessary or excessive harm.

 

[J. Pickard]

Tell me where this happened... State and city.

I"ve never heard of any true "hand registration" anywhere. Maybe in some other part of the world -- but not in the USA. I know that if you walk into my station and try to register your hands... Well, if you're lucky, the laughter will be gentle. Being sued or arrested for sticking your nose into a fight? That's quite possible, especially if you cause serious injury when you intervene. You take your victim as you find him, and you'd better know who was in the right if you're going to jump into the battle.

Guam. It's an actual law on the books that has become sort of a gag. I'm pretty sure it started there because of the military base (could be wrong) and was basically used as another source of tax revenue.