USAT bah humbug
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
TKD_Stops_Tilt
Yellow Belt
The problem is that the coaching staff making the choices regarding which athletes make the team have a financial stake in the decision. The national team coaches each run training facilities and develop athletes. If they are responsible for choosing the members of the team, who do you think they are going to choose...the up-and-coming unknown athlete or one of their athletes? If an independent selection team was established, then you are right in saying that no one should be shut out or affected in any way. Other organizations that use a team selection camp process also have an independent and unbiased selection team to choose the athletes. Unfortunately, that is not current political landscape at USAT.
In turn, this affects the organization because it presents the appearance of impropriety, whether that impropriety exists or not. That turns people off from becoming members because the organization seems to favor select groups within the general membership. Why do coaches and parents want their players to compete at USAT? To compete against the best and possibly make a team some day. That dream doesn't exist if there isn't a level playing field to select teams. Why should coaches and parents waste their time and resouces on an organization that favors a select few? It could be their player that one day gets shut out of the process.
goingd
Purple Belt
I'm gonna go with this one.
OP
OP
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
MANY US sports have the coaches picking the team, soccer for one. Don't blame the USAT, blame US sports. Like I said before, if you are at the top then we will talk until then train harder than your competition, beat top fighters, prove yourself at camps and you WILL have a chance to make the team. The USAT is not doing anything to you that most Olympic sports donÂ’t do; try and make the US soccer team.
p.s. What about the U24 program? ANY up and coming fighter should be there.
p.s. What about the U24 program? ANY up and coming fighter should be there.
OP
OP
Master Southwick let me just add a few things here OK, Jaun Mareno has his Peak performance people and Jean Lopez has his people, therepipeline has been full for years. Now here is the problem the two that make the call already have there fighters, what do you think is going to happen, like Marginal said Nia even though she was a eturning Medalist from the previous Olympic got robbed so Diana and her brother Mark andSteven along with Jean would all be at the Olympics. Now if Nia got robbed what chance does the up and coming fighters have with the deck stacked against them? I kow you and you are a upstanding person but we o have some that are not in the world. Atleast at a fight off the up and coming always have that chance just to knock somebody out to have a shot at the team, what kowif they even piss the two off, well you get the picture and as far as the U24 program that is even a bigger joke. Zachary was supposeto be able to go to Jamaca back in late March that never materialized, hell we was even going to cover the cost. I can take Zachary on my own and since my wife is from Puerto Rico we have the option for him to try and make the Puerto Rico team, so I guess the USAT has there little games to play and some of us have ours.
One last thing if the USAT was not so hush hush about it and brought i to the members and so forth maybe just maybe alot of people would not be so upset. They are trying t do things that look underhanded just like the old USTU was doing, so are we even better? I know you stand by them and so should everybody else, but I know this when it smells funy something is wrong with te fish.
I hope I am not offending you in anyway and I know it is hard for you to see some of the peoples point here and I hope that you can appreciate some people views and still be able to sit down and talk and take notice and help those of us that have these strong feelings toward what is going on.
Sincerly
Terry Stoker
One last thing if the USAT was not so hush hush about it and brought i to the members and so forth maybe just maybe alot of people would not be so upset. They are trying t do things that look underhanded just like the old USTU was doing, so are we even better? I know you stand by them and so should everybody else, but I know this when it smells funy something is wrong with te fish.
I hope I am not offending you in anyway and I know it is hard for you to see some of the peoples point here and I hope that you can appreciate some people views and still be able to sit down and talk and take notice and help those of us that have these strong feelings toward what is going on.
Sincerly
Terry Stoker
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Sorry but this excuse doesn't fly. First off just because others do it does not make it any more right. I honetly don't care what other sports do for their process. If we are going to compare sports then I would rather compare TKD to Boxing which does use a process where the individuals have to fight to get on the team and are not hand selected because they attend the coach's camp. How does Judo select their team?
Why must our fighters prove themselves at a camp? Either you are beating the best or you are not. It is just that simple. Are you telling me if someone who is not a camper is winning matches over the campers will not make it because he doesn't shell out $$$ to be at the camp?
Lastly how is this new process going to net us a better TKD team than the old one? What studies and data do they have to show that this is the best route to go?
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
I think you better look into the boxing selection process, lol; it is not so different than what is being proposed by our NGB. Judo uses the Senior Classification and Point System, which team members have an advantage because international experience gives them more points; more points = chance to go to a trial.
It is not a matter of being wrong; it is the paradigm of US sports management and team selection. Picking someone who wins one big event to represent the US at Worlds or the Olympic games is foolish which is why most sports do not do it.
An NGB’s job is to select the best possible members to represent the US in international competition. Being a good fighter is a given but may not be good enough to win at the world level. I cannot think of a fighter in US Taekwondo who is “beating the best” and not in the selection process. If you know one now is the time to offer that up.
How should we select a team? We need depth in our program and I think this might be the way to achieve this.
The U24 program is a great training ground that will give ANYONE a shot at some real international experience.
U24
Phase #1 represents the entire process for making the 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team.
The 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team Trial is an OPEN tournament. All black belts who meet
the eligibility criteria in section A of this document are eligible to compete.
Eligible athletes can only enter one weight division. Athletes have until the late registration
deadline, to declare in which weight category he or she will compete.
The winner,
per gender, in the eight (8) weight divisions, earns a spot on the 2009 U-24 U.S. National
Team.
Competition Format – Single Elimination
The 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team Trial is single elimination format. In single elimination format, the loser of each match is immediately eliminated from the competition bracket.
Seeding Criteria:
There will be no seeding criteria. All athletes will be seeded randomly.
Training camps give athletes a taste of how hard it really is to be world class at anything. Most people won’t have the desire to put in the time and effort and the ones that do, will shine and only get better from the experience.
Politics, well that will always be there. You cannot find ANY organization that does not have them and any one claiming to “not be about politics” is lying. What we should do is get involved, not from behind your keyboard, become top athletes or coaches or referees and change it from within. I don’t know about you but that is what I am doing.
“The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend.”
Abraham Lincoln
It is not a matter of being wrong; it is the paradigm of US sports management and team selection. Picking someone who wins one big event to represent the US at Worlds or the Olympic games is foolish which is why most sports do not do it.
An NGB’s job is to select the best possible members to represent the US in international competition. Being a good fighter is a given but may not be good enough to win at the world level. I cannot think of a fighter in US Taekwondo who is “beating the best” and not in the selection process. If you know one now is the time to offer that up.
How should we select a team? We need depth in our program and I think this might be the way to achieve this.
The U24 program is a great training ground that will give ANYONE a shot at some real international experience.
U24
Phase #1 represents the entire process for making the 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team.
The 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team Trial is an OPEN tournament. All black belts who meet
the eligibility criteria in section A of this document are eligible to compete.
Eligible athletes can only enter one weight division. Athletes have until the late registration
deadline, to declare in which weight category he or she will compete.
The winner,
per gender, in the eight (8) weight divisions, earns a spot on the 2009 U-24 U.S. National
Team.
Competition Format – Single Elimination
The 2009 U-24 U.S. National Team Trial is single elimination format. In single elimination format, the loser of each match is immediately eliminated from the competition bracket.
Seeding Criteria:
There will be no seeding criteria. All athletes will be seeded randomly.
Training camps give athletes a taste of how hard it really is to be world class at anything. Most people won’t have the desire to put in the time and effort and the ones that do, will shine and only get better from the experience.
Politics, well that will always be there. You cannot find ANY organization that does not have them and any one claiming to “not be about politics” is lying. What we should do is get involved, not from behind your keyboard, become top athletes or coaches or referees and change it from within. I don’t know about you but that is what I am doing.
“The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend.”
Abraham Lincoln
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miguksaram
Master of Arts
It is my understanding that you have to make US National Team by winning at the US Natioan boxing tournament. Once you win your slot there you get a chance to compete in the World's for Olympic slots and if you don't get in there you can still qualify through continental tournaments. So it seems to be a matter of fighting for your spot.
I would gander that if you fought your weigh through State qualifiers...oh wait USAT did away with that...Ok well let's say you go to one tournament to fight for a spot on the US team, are you saying that they only have to fight once and win? It would think you would have multiple fights and you would be fighting the best of the best to get that spot. Is this a wrong assumption?
How are the training camps giving athletes world class training? Are they fighting others from around the world? It is not a matter of putting in the time and effort to train. People don't feel like putting time effort and money into the back pockets of the coaches who are holding these camps to select their players. BTW...how are the coaches selected?
It seems it is being established, at least here, that the Lopez are no greater a coach than any other coaches who train their athletes to become top fighters in US.
I would gander that if you fought your weigh through State qualifiers...oh wait USAT did away with that...Ok well let's say you go to one tournament to fight for a spot on the US team, are you saying that they only have to fight once and win? It would think you would have multiple fights and you would be fighting the best of the best to get that spot. Is this a wrong assumption?
How are the training camps giving athletes world class training? Are they fighting others from around the world? It is not a matter of putting in the time and effort to train. People don't feel like putting time effort and money into the back pockets of the coaches who are holding these camps to select their players. BTW...how are the coaches selected?
It seems it is being established, at least here, that the Lopez are no greater a coach than any other coaches who train their athletes to become top fighters in US.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
Just because other sports do it one way dosnt make it a right way. What you want is a FAIR way. Fight offs with double elimination seems to me to be the best way possible.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Ok..my mistake. I thought one of the qualifiers were done away with.
So with that said, doesn't the athlete now have to fight through state to get to the nationals? So in essence it isn't just one fight that determines if a guy gets to be on the olympic team. Most likely it is someone who has fought amongst the best to be where he/she is. So again why is the new system better?
ATC
Senior Master
The way it is now nationals mean nothing. Even if you win they do not have to take you. So what everyone is up in arms about is why even compete if winning may not even get you anything. Before if you won you at least had to chance to go to team trials and maybe win a spot if you won. Now that is done away with. To me this is a conflict of interest, making the selection process tainted for this sport.
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
I am not debating whether it is better; it is a chosen methodology used by NGB’s to help select the best teams and athletes to represent the US. Why do most US sports use a similar method? I would hope because it is working. My point is: how does this even affect non-elite athletes complaining about it? They could still go to states or a qualifier, attend the national championships and have fun. They might even become national champions, an amazing feat in itself. To become a US Team member is very different. The next level is about more than being a good fighter or taekwondo practitioner. It is about a drive and work ethic that quite frankly most people do not have. You cannot become an Olympic or World Champion working out for 1.5 hrs at night M-W-Fr.
I think it is wonderful to have camps available to athletes who are willing to push themselves to the next level. They can prepare you for international competition and are taught by people who have been there; it raises the bar for our athletes. You also need knowledge of proper training methods, nutrition and modern taekwondo rules and tactics; what a great place to learn. These camps can also identify the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete and help them to benchmark themselves to other players. The selection teams can also evaluate the mental/emotional stability of the athlete; very important due to the stress levels of practice/travel/competition. One of the greatest advantages of this method and the U24 idea is to create depth in our athletes. It gives those who are national level but not quite world class yet the chance for a better class of competition experience. These experiences will give USA taekwondo athletes a better chance to perform well at tougher competitions. The benefits of mandatory training camps far outweigh the cons, IMHO.
All this bashing the NGB is counterproductive and misleading; could’a -would’a-should’a does not cut it. If you have a specific example of how YOU are hurt by this process then make your thoughts known. Many of us actually in the game would probably come to your aid. Speculation about what might happen is for soothsayers not athletes. If you are not willing to work within the rules of the NGB, don’t play.
Sport competition in taekwondo is different than taekwondo in the dojang and hopefully always will be. The USAT is there to develop athletes; we are here to develop martial artists and potential athletes. Neither is against the other and both rely on each other; remember not all martial artists want to be athletes and not all athletes need to be martial artists. Some of us can be both and in that the conflict disappears.
I think it is wonderful to have camps available to athletes who are willing to push themselves to the next level. They can prepare you for international competition and are taught by people who have been there; it raises the bar for our athletes. You also need knowledge of proper training methods, nutrition and modern taekwondo rules and tactics; what a great place to learn. These camps can also identify the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete and help them to benchmark themselves to other players. The selection teams can also evaluate the mental/emotional stability of the athlete; very important due to the stress levels of practice/travel/competition. One of the greatest advantages of this method and the U24 idea is to create depth in our athletes. It gives those who are national level but not quite world class yet the chance for a better class of competition experience. These experiences will give USA taekwondo athletes a better chance to perform well at tougher competitions. The benefits of mandatory training camps far outweigh the cons, IMHO.
All this bashing the NGB is counterproductive and misleading; could’a -would’a-should’a does not cut it. If you have a specific example of how YOU are hurt by this process then make your thoughts known. Many of us actually in the game would probably come to your aid. Speculation about what might happen is for soothsayers not athletes. If you are not willing to work within the rules of the NGB, don’t play.
Sport competition in taekwondo is different than taekwondo in the dojang and hopefully always will be. The USAT is there to develop athletes; we are here to develop martial artists and potential athletes. Neither is against the other and both rely on each other; remember not all martial artists want to be athletes and not all athletes need to be martial artists. Some of us can be both and in that the conflict disappears.
TKD_Stops_Tilt
Yellow Belt
You are still avoiding the issue that most people have a problem with. Having coaches pick a national team where they have their own fighters in the mix creates a conflict of interest on the part of the coaches. It seems as if you are denying this situation exists, because you want specific examples of athletes that have been affected. The perception of impropriety is often just as destructive as the existence of actual impropriety. USAT should be avoiding this at all costs as an organization. Please address these issues directly in future responses.
My response to your post is the following. Regardless of whether it afffects them or not, people (i.e. athletes, coaches and parents) typically want to be part of an organization they can be proud of and willing to support. That support will fade if the majority of the membership in the organization feels that events like Nationals, Qualifiers, etc. are just a means to funnel money to a "select" subset of the organization. Without those events, and steady growth in the membership base, there won't be funds to support sport TKD and the organization as a whole. That will be bad for everyone, from full-time elite athletes all the way down to part-time amateurs.
OP
OP
OK Master Southwick right now it has hurt nobody you are right and it may not hurt anybody. But the process may hurt future hopeful in the manner that Jean and Juan may only want players they know. Yes I can see that happening with them.They are about money and that is OK but not everybody believes these two are our best hope as coaches, you yourself should know this. Coaches that have trained and live there life for the Art and sport should have a fair player field for there lite athletes. Maybe we need better communication with the USAT instead of closing us out, take the time to explain what is going on to the general public but no they cannot do that why because everything is about who is washing each other hands right now. If that is offensive than so be it, I know and have been in TKD longer than both of these two but yet they are the best we have, what about Jimmy KIm, Greeg Tubbs, Jason Poos just to name a few off the top of my head. When will the process be fair across the horizen never I know. Too bad we have come so far to let it go backwards once again.
I got to side with Master Southwick on this, I really donÂ’t think itÂ’s going to have a major effect on who makes it to the Olympic team and it may even improve the team we send. As far as the coaches being part of the selection process their the ones who will be coaching the competitors and they were selected for a reason, they have been there and done that. If anyone knows what it takes to be an Olympic caliber athlete it should be these two guys.
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
I actually understand your points and I am not avoiding anything, my point again is anyone can say that the coaches will pick their own fighters just as easily as one could say they wonÂ’t; ALL speculation. If it were such an unethical thing then why does this seem to be where US team selections are moving? I do not know the answer and am not really sure if I like the idea but after doing some research and talking to high level sport administrators in Olympic sports, this trend is what they believe will increase wins at the World level. This is not my area of expertise so I can just look and listen and try to support the plan. Why? Because I want to be a top athlete and know this is this only way to that dream. As an athlete I donÂ’t have time to cry about what might happen to me; my job is to convince the coaches, judges and even the CEO that I am the best possible candidate to represent my country.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
But that is one of my points, why change something if it isn't for the betterment of team? Is this method going to provide US TKD a better team at the olympics or tend to provide favoritism to certain athletes and extra cash to coaches? It seems that allowing coaches to pick teams based on their preference and not by process of elimination leaves the doors open for possible corruption. Not saying it will happen, just saying the possibility is there.
How does one go from non-elite to elite? Just because I am currently not an elite athlete I have no right to complain about this process? When do I have a right to complain, after I have spent time and money, blood sweat and tears to reach the "elite" status only to find out I didn't do a camp so I'm not going to have a chance to be picked?
That type of work ethic should be there from the get go and way before you get to US Team Trial.
I definitely can't agree with you more.
I'm not arguing the point that camps are a good thing. Far from it. I'm just wondering why it has to be THEIR camp. What if I attended a camp taught by Sang Lee or Arlene Limas? Both who have been there done that and raised good fighters as well. Would that count?
Will this team visit major training camps or just the couple of camps where the coaches are involved in teaching?
ATC
Senior Master
It is not the process; it is who runs the process. You cannot have the people running the process also be the ones with the so called top fighters in the process. Let the athletes perform and may the best ones raise to the top.
Also you keep asking for examples, well they will come I assure you, but since this has just been started there won't be any examples until later. But we can all see the inherent flaws already as the process is built on a conflict of interest policy. I cannot see how you do not see this, unless you have some stake in the process and don't want to see it.
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Also you keep asking for examples, well they will come I assure you, but since this has just been started there won't be any examples until later. But we can all see the inherent flaws already as the process is built on a conflict of interest policy. I cannot see how you do not see this, unless you have some stake in the process and don't want to see it.
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