More information, including links to other sites with the Wikileaks release can be found here: http://owni.fr/2010/11/27/wikileaks-statelogs-diplomatic-assange-application-insurance/
US warns Ottawa of pending WikiLeaks release
- Thread starter Scott T
- Start date
WC_lun
Senior Master
I think most of our allies are mature enough to handle the written down pique of some of our ambassor corp. The communications seem to show human behaviour, good and bad, of every country we deal with.
As far as other countries hating on us, that isn't my experience. I have friends from around the world. While they don't always agree with our policies or the we're-America-so-we-can-do-what-we-want attitude of some of our citizens, I find that the attitude toward my country is very good. Heck, sometimes my over seas friends know more about my country than my in country friends. The only time I see my frinds from over seas get irritated with an American is when that American starts getting arrogant. You could insert any other country into that sentence and it would be the same. I really don't feel like we are the poor picked on USA.
As far as other countries hating on us, that isn't my experience. I have friends from around the world. While they don't always agree with our policies or the we're-America-so-we-can-do-what-we-want attitude of some of our citizens, I find that the attitude toward my country is very good. Heck, sometimes my over seas friends know more about my country than my in country friends. The only time I see my frinds from over seas get irritated with an American is when that American starts getting arrogant. You could insert any other country into that sentence and it would be the same. I really don't feel like we are the poor picked on USA.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
I found this bit interesting:
"Such disclosures put at risk our diplomats, intelligence professionals, and people around the world who come to the US for assistance in promoting democracy and open government. By releasing stolen and classified documents, WikiLeaks has put at risk not only the cause of human rights but also the lives and work of these individuals."
How about: if you don't want to be caught with your pants down, don't put your pants down.
As an administrator of a large forum, my primary tool for resolving conflict is diplomacy. When I talk with people about problems they have or are causing, I always assume that my PMs will be forwarded or shared. By using the correct words, I can always say what I want to / have to say without having to fear the results of those words being read by others. Privacy does not exist. For anyone. Being arrogant would only make my life more difficult.
Blade96
Senior Master
Careful what you wish for, young lady.:lol:
Hehehe :lol:
Nomad
Master Black Belt
As a Canadian who has chosen to live and work in the US, and raise my family here, I'd like to contribute a bit to this discussion.
IMO, the US does a lot of good things around the world, from it's humanitarian work and disaster relief to peacekeeping efforts in war-torn regions. It also makes mistakes in judgement and action that tend to come back and haunt it for many years (see Iran, Iraq, etc.). Installing and toppling foreign regimes is definitely one of the areas that hasn't had a lot of success over the years, but has caused a great deal of resentment and distrust, and in many ways has helped lead to the current situation in the middle east (among other places).
I do not indulge in (much) US bashing, although many things about the US concern me and many I completely disagree with. The US does tend to treat Canada as a little brother, sometimes condescending and other times bullying it into shape, with little regard for the fact that we are each others' largest trading partners.
In turn, Canadians are often baffled by many aspects of american culture, including the intense religious fundamentalism, the possibly related militaristic and nationalistic stance the country takes in almost all of it's dealings with others around the world, the extreme political partisanship that makes the word "compromise" a foreign concept to both parties, and the fiasco they have made and continue to make of the fairly simple concept of universal health care.
Of course, most Americans fail to see the splendor that is Curling, or understand the sublime wonder of Tim Horton's coffee and donuts, or how good poutine is (there may even be some other cultural differences too).
This tends to result in taking some pot shots south of the border, especially if there's a cross-border Olympic gold hockey game taking place (sorry, couldn't resist that one).
The reality is that when the chips fall, both countries have backed each other up through crises, natural disasters, and multiple wars from WWI through Afghanistan. There are many, many stories of Canadians just getting in their cars (or in one case, their ambulance) and driving to New York to help after 9/11, for instance... not even including the official government support that came afterwards.
Disagreeing with a policy or refusing to enter a war without just cause does not make us enemies, any more than making disparaging comments about each others' ambassadors (while not exactly a smart move in itself) would do.
Both countries have a lot of strengths and more than a few weaknesses, but are overall great places to live compared to much of the rest of the world. If I feel that has changed, due to further political polarization or untenable policies in the US, I will take my family back home... but I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.
IMO, the US does a lot of good things around the world, from it's humanitarian work and disaster relief to peacekeeping efforts in war-torn regions. It also makes mistakes in judgement and action that tend to come back and haunt it for many years (see Iran, Iraq, etc.). Installing and toppling foreign regimes is definitely one of the areas that hasn't had a lot of success over the years, but has caused a great deal of resentment and distrust, and in many ways has helped lead to the current situation in the middle east (among other places).
I do not indulge in (much) US bashing, although many things about the US concern me and many I completely disagree with. The US does tend to treat Canada as a little brother, sometimes condescending and other times bullying it into shape, with little regard for the fact that we are each others' largest trading partners.
In turn, Canadians are often baffled by many aspects of american culture, including the intense religious fundamentalism, the possibly related militaristic and nationalistic stance the country takes in almost all of it's dealings with others around the world, the extreme political partisanship that makes the word "compromise" a foreign concept to both parties, and the fiasco they have made and continue to make of the fairly simple concept of universal health care.
Of course, most Americans fail to see the splendor that is Curling, or understand the sublime wonder of Tim Horton's coffee and donuts, or how good poutine is (there may even be some other cultural differences too).
This tends to result in taking some pot shots south of the border, especially if there's a cross-border Olympic gold hockey game taking place (sorry, couldn't resist that one).
The reality is that when the chips fall, both countries have backed each other up through crises, natural disasters, and multiple wars from WWI through Afghanistan. There are many, many stories of Canadians just getting in their cars (or in one case, their ambulance) and driving to New York to help after 9/11, for instance... not even including the official government support that came afterwards.
Disagreeing with a policy or refusing to enter a war without just cause does not make us enemies, any more than making disparaging comments about each others' ambassadors (while not exactly a smart move in itself) would do.
Both countries have a lot of strengths and more than a few weaknesses, but are overall great places to live compared to much of the rest of the world. If I feel that has changed, due to further political polarization or untenable policies in the US, I will take my family back home... but I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.
The criticism of British troops by Americans is hurtful and from the Afghans is just hateful but as one of our commanders said...
"Col Stuart Tootal, former commander of 3 Para, the first battle group sent to Helmand province, said the documents were not particularly relevant.
He said: "They reflected individual views, within an alliance, which were also about a period where there were challenges due to a lack of resources.
"We've now moved on significantly, we've now got 10,000 British troops, 30,000 Nato troops, and Nato has turned the corner.
"But I think you'll also find these are views of people who aren't actually fighting in Helmand themselves, and don't necessarily realise the challenges they face."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11906147
I find the idea of the American government/military officials cosying up with the Afghan president to criticise us distasteful to say the least, it's somewhat hateful. Our soldiers are dying and being maimed for this disgusting Afghan president and all he can do is criticise, after his troops have actually turned on and killed British soldiers, he's having a laugh that one. This analysis is correct for those of us who have lost friends and loved ones it really does sting, though recent commendations from the American military are appreciated.
Jonathan Beale Defence correspondent, BBC News
This time the private, unvarnished reports from US diplomats have the potential to offend America's strongest ally in Afghanistan.
They reinforce a criticism made before of British forces that they have not been aggressive enough or present in sufficient numbers.
This should not come as a huge surprise. President Karzai has been critical of British military efforts in the past. British commanders have long acknowledged that, until the recent US reinforcements, they did not have sufficient forces to stabilise the major population centres within Helmand.
The blunt private comments are also contradicted by more recent public praise from US military commanders.
US Marine Maj Gen Richard Mills said the UK's efforts in Sangin had been "simply nothing short of remarkable".
And they need to be tempered by the realities on the ground. The US Marines who have now taken over Sangin have found it to be just as dangerous and deadly as the British.
Yet these words could still cause hurt and offence - not least for the families of those 345 British service personnel who have lost their lives in Afghanistan
345 soldiers killed may not sound much to those countries who have huge armies to call on of military, we don't, we have just over 113,000 soldiers in our entire army.
Our brigade is back now, the figures are 50 dead, 30 triple amputees and 800 others injured as a result of enemy action. There were 9,300 troops sent from here.
maybe we aren't 'mature' enough to cope with criticism from those we are trying to help but frankly foxtrot oscar is what we feel like saying at the moment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/02/wikileaks-cables-afghan-british-military
"Col Stuart Tootal, former commander of 3 Para, the first battle group sent to Helmand province, said the documents were not particularly relevant.
He said: "They reflected individual views, within an alliance, which were also about a period where there were challenges due to a lack of resources.
"We've now moved on significantly, we've now got 10,000 British troops, 30,000 Nato troops, and Nato has turned the corner.
"But I think you'll also find these are views of people who aren't actually fighting in Helmand themselves, and don't necessarily realise the challenges they face."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11906147
I find the idea of the American government/military officials cosying up with the Afghan president to criticise us distasteful to say the least, it's somewhat hateful. Our soldiers are dying and being maimed for this disgusting Afghan president and all he can do is criticise, after his troops have actually turned on and killed British soldiers, he's having a laugh that one. This analysis is correct for those of us who have lost friends and loved ones it really does sting, though recent commendations from the American military are appreciated.
Jonathan Beale Defence correspondent, BBC News
This time the private, unvarnished reports from US diplomats have the potential to offend America's strongest ally in Afghanistan.
They reinforce a criticism made before of British forces that they have not been aggressive enough or present in sufficient numbers.
This should not come as a huge surprise. President Karzai has been critical of British military efforts in the past. British commanders have long acknowledged that, until the recent US reinforcements, they did not have sufficient forces to stabilise the major population centres within Helmand.
The blunt private comments are also contradicted by more recent public praise from US military commanders.
US Marine Maj Gen Richard Mills said the UK's efforts in Sangin had been "simply nothing short of remarkable".
And they need to be tempered by the realities on the ground. The US Marines who have now taken over Sangin have found it to be just as dangerous and deadly as the British.
Yet these words could still cause hurt and offence - not least for the families of those 345 British service personnel who have lost their lives in Afghanistan
345 soldiers killed may not sound much to those countries who have huge armies to call on of military, we don't, we have just over 113,000 soldiers in our entire army.
Our brigade is back now, the figures are 50 dead, 30 triple amputees and 800 others injured as a result of enemy action. There were 9,300 troops sent from here.
maybe we aren't 'mature' enough to cope with criticism from those we are trying to help but frankly foxtrot oscar is what we feel like saying at the moment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/02/wikileaks-cables-afghan-british-military
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granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
I have not followed the issue. But from what I have heard, it seems to be about par for the course, nothing that was not somehow reflected in the media, too. I feel it is somewhere along the line that you know your mother-in-law hates your guts, but now you actually have proof of what she says behind your back.
But I am not sure if the US troops aren't stung by that as well. The forgotten few send into the mountains after the real target, while the bulk was send to look for the car keys under the street light.
I think Germany caught some critisism (man I can't spell) for not sending more troops instead of being grateful they send something, after all, it's in the constitution that they can't just send armed men around the world....
I find Americans in general ignorant of the outside world. I mean really, even about the two countries they share borders with, little is know. And those are the people they draw from for sensitive positions.
I don't think I am making myself very clear though.
I don't think it's done mean spirited - the core sentiment of putting people down in those notes - it's more the lack of self control or the need to be witty.
I know I am too soft at times when people need to get slapped for behaving badly....
Then again some of what I heard that is in the files, you only had to read the papers to see that they were not alone with their opinion. Like the Italian Prime minister.... :lol:
But I am not sure if the US troops aren't stung by that as well. The forgotten few send into the mountains after the real target, while the bulk was send to look for the car keys under the street light.
I think Germany caught some critisism (man I can't spell) for not sending more troops instead of being grateful they send something, after all, it's in the constitution that they can't just send armed men around the world....
I find Americans in general ignorant of the outside world. I mean really, even about the two countries they share borders with, little is know. And those are the people they draw from for sensitive positions.
I don't think I am making myself very clear though.
I don't think it's done mean spirited - the core sentiment of putting people down in those notes - it's more the lack of self control or the need to be witty.
I know I am too soft at times when people need to get slapped for behaving badly....
Then again some of what I heard that is in the files, you only had to read the papers to see that they were not alone with their opinion. Like the Italian Prime minister.... :lol:
Criticising politicians is fair game, they set themselves up for it. The leaks have said Brown was a lousy Prime Minister which he was so I have no problem with that. Even if he had been any good it's still not a problem criticising him as he is a public figure who put himself there, you have to take the rough with the smooth in that case.
However criticising British troops saying they won't go outside the camps is unfair and also a blatent lie. It's accusing them of cowardice which is outrageous even more so if you know the troops. They are brave to the point of almost being stupid about it. You can blame the government for their orders or even senior military leaders but to blame the soldiers is dispicable.
However criticising British troops saying they won't go outside the camps is unfair and also a blatent lie. It's accusing them of cowardice which is outrageous even more so if you know the troops. They are brave to the point of almost being stupid about it. You can blame the government for their orders or even senior military leaders but to blame the soldiers is dispicable.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
I think they - openly - critizised German troops for staying in the 'safer' areas...
I can't really put it into thoughts...Hubby is ex-army, I got a soft spot for the guys in uniform...
I think the theme is to lay blame at the bottom end of the chain.
I personally don't put much weight in any of that what was said, openly or not, because it was such a quagmire time.
I mean, the tenor was 'if you are not with us you are against us' so what if the direction given was off a deep end...heaven forbid that an elected official actually acts in his/her country's best interest....
We just had the Congressional Medal of Honor awarded to a live soldier this past November. It has not happened in a long time. Usually the recipients did not survive their act of bravery. The young man earned it in the same hell hole those papers accuse your guys of cowardice in. The stories are pretty sobering.
I do believe some apologies are in order, but I doubt they are forthcoming.
But I am with you. I don't think a desk jockey has grounds to speak about those with the bullets zipping over their heads...
Archangel M
Senior Master
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Maybe all these thin-skinned people should have taken up a different career than soldiering. Something safer, like knitting or feltching. Because if they are all bent out of shape because someone in a rival service or branch is calling them names, them maybe they need to go home and cry to their mommies.
As to the diplomats, diplomacy is the art of school yard gossiping and back dealing, on a bigger stage, with more at risk should someone get their hair pulled.
Piss on em all.
Why can't Wikileaks release something more interesting, like Bill Clintons Intern DVD?
As to the diplomats, diplomacy is the art of school yard gossiping and back dealing, on a bigger stage, with more at risk should someone get their hair pulled.
Piss on em all.
Why can't Wikileaks release something more interesting, like Bill Clintons Intern DVD?
Canadian man killed and his daughter escapes.
US helps get daughter to Belize.
http://beta.ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-man-dead-daughter-safe-central-america-family.html
"U.S. helicopters transported Egrmajer to Belize, where she had been communicating with Canadian authorities, said Melvin Duarte, a spokesman for the Honduras prosecutors office."
No idea who these people are, but thanks to the US for helping.
US helps get daughter to Belize.
http://beta.ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-man-dead-daughter-safe-central-america-family.html
"U.S. helicopters transported Egrmajer to Belize, where she had been communicating with Canadian authorities, said Melvin Duarte, a spokesman for the Honduras prosecutors office."
No idea who these people are, but thanks to the US for helping.
I think you missed the bit about the Afghan president whinging that the British troops were useless, this is the guy that we are keeping in power, who is making a fortune in bribes and for whom our soldiers are dying. The soldiers actually have said NOTHING about this so why you are singling them out I don't know. It's not a rival branch of the armed service, it's the head of a country we are busy trying to defend from people who want to kill him, and who are trying to make his peoples lives better.
The troops have said nothing but it's hurtful for families who has lost people or who are caring for the wounded to have these things said in public. Try a little empathy instead of waspishness.
Personally, I say pull all our troops out, all the support staff, all the supplies, aid, etc, and let them have their country. When they cry about it being a cluster, tell them to grow a pair and do it themselves.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
Sadly we have had our collective fingers in the pie for over 30 years....
can't really show up uninvited to a party, rear down the house and leave the home owner with the clean up...
I'm ok with it.
Here's my plan:
Cut foreign aid to 0. Invest that money in the US.
Pull all US troops out. Close all foreign bases, etc. Deploy to fortify the US.
Focus all efforts currently being spent overseas into improving our own nation.
I never will understand why we continue to play nice with nations who hate us, to do favors for governments who stab us in the back, or stick our necks into where they aren't wanted. Put that effort into eradicating crime, poverty, hunger in the US instead.
Becuse the good often outweights the bad.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
No offense Bob, you know I am not a US hater, but politically speaking, the US does those things because it gains from them one way or another. Not out of philantropical reasons. Do you think that Europe wants the US bases? The US has those bases for operational and strategic reasons. Not because we are asking for it. My own country has a joint US - Belgian base just for storing 30 odd nukes. The existance of those nukes has to be the worst kept secret in military history, and has been confirmed by accidental slips of the tongue, and (interestingly) the leaked cables. Those nukes are here not for our benefit, but to give the US the opportunity to take off with fighter jet deployed drop nukes at a moments notice.
If the US were to do what you suggest, they lose all strategical advantage they have, as well as cause a mass unemployment because all those soldiers can't be stationed in the US. You'd kill the US economy. And to make matters worse, you'd kill nearly the entire military industry and their enablers. If you thought the current recession was bad, then that would cause a national depression. The US needs a large military to
a) maintain strategic (and thus economic) advantage
b) keep those people out of the job pool
c) support the military industry.
I don't say this can't change. It can. But if you want to avoid the negative economic impact, then it has to be done really slowly. And that won't happen because the US doesn't want to give up their strategic advantages.
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