US Law now enforcable in Canada?

[modarnis]

>>Exempting U.S. citizens from prosecution in the International Criminal Court does not mean absolution from conduct governed by international treaties such as the Geneva Conventions. This only means no prosecution by the International Criminal Court, as opposed to other forums. U.S. Army Reserve Pvt. Lyndie England, who worked at Iraq's Abu Grahib prison, is one U.S. citizen who deservedly knows this all too well. >>

This is from the signs on San Diego link, just posted. It is often helpful to read carefully what is actually said in articles used to support a position. It speaks only to ICC, not to other jurisdictions prosecuting their offenses. Not particullarly relevant to this discussion

 

[Andrew Green]

It is relevant, as it is the overall attitude that people have the problem with. Exempting the citizens of ONE nation is not the right way to do things, everyone should be held accountable for their own actions. And if that means a non-US court trying US citizens for major crimes then that is the way it shoulc be. No special exceptions just cause its the US.

I have no doubt in my mind that the US government would NOT allow extradition if the situation was reversed. Try the person in the US probably, but not let that person be tried by a foreign court.

 

[Tgace]

If a person in another country used a computer and internet to steal from your bank account, by your logic they get a pass and haven't committed a larceny. In my experiences as a prosecutor often times the criminal isn't at a "crime scene" at the time of the crime (forgery cases, bad check cases, the list goes on), and very often they are not at the crimescene when an arrest is made. Sometimes they need to be extradited from other state's or countries to answer to the charges

Good question...anybody?

 

[Tgace]

I dont agree with an "International court" either. If 2 countries wish to make an agreement like the US and Canada are party to, fine. Otherwise....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The US doesn't have a great record where honoring treaties is concerned.
Just ask the Seneca Nation.

I think it's hypocritical for a nation to expect a foriegn power to pass over their citizens for prosecution, while insisting that it's own citizens be exempt from the same.

 

[Tgace]

Your country is party to this Andrew...how about directing some questions there.

 

[Tgace]

Not all Canadians are that upset over this either.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/8552

Marc Emery: Don’t Let the Door Hit You on the Way Out.
By Brent Colbert (08/03/05)

Some here in Canada have jumped to the defence of Canadian drug dealer Marc Emery who has been arrested by the RCMP under the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act at the request of the American DEA. Mr. Emery runs an on-line drug distribution network that sells among other items, marijuana seeds. Mr. Emery is alleged to have sold and shipped these seeds across the border into the U.S.

Selling viable pot seeds is a punishable offence under the Canadian Criminal Code yet our government picks and chooses which laws they wish to enforce. While 4 RCMP officers were shot and killed while exercising a warrant on an illegal drug facility in Mayerthorpe back in March of this year, Mr. Emery was operating a storefront selling the very seeds that these grow-ops need.

The American government acting on information they collected as part of their drug enforcement policy learned that Mr. Emery the self proclaimed “Prince of Pot” was supplying their citizens with a controlled substance and requested that he be detained pending an extradition order for him to face charges in a U.S. court.

People on the left and the right have suggested that the Canadian government ignore the request and refuse to detain Mr. Emery and to refuse to deport him. It has been suggested that our co-operation is somehow a loss of sovereignty and that we should not be taking orders from the Americans.

Well they are half right. We should not have to rely on the Americans to police our streets and prosecute those that break our laws. Mr. Emery is facing charges for his alleged trafficking of seeds to the U.S. but faces no charges for operating his “business” and trafficking in illegal drugs here in Canada.

According to Police Mr. Emery earns over $3 million a year as a drug dealer yet our government does not see fit to charge him under the criminal code. Our government has given up on protecting our communities from the dangers of illegal drug use and this endorsement of the drug trade has seen grow-ops spring up in virtually every community in Canada.

If we are unwilling to stop the spread of drugs in our country we should not criticize our neighbours that are doing something about the problem. Drug addiction is on the rise among our young people. We can expect to see those numbers rise dramatically if the Liberal government is successful in decriminalizing marijuana. We must begin to take the threats posed by drugs seriously, they are a threat to our safety and destroy the lives of so many of our young people.

Our current government will not prosecute Mr. Emery so I say put him on the next plane south to face justice. Maybe after 10 years or so in a U.S. prison we’ll have a new government here that takes criminal behaviour seriously and then maybe we’ll take a turn hosting him in our of our institutions.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=eff002cb-54d2-44d5-a978-528614656ccb

While we have little sympathy for Emery -- who may or may not have violated U.S. drug laws -- there are some legitimate issues that should be addressed.

The fact our police co-operated with American authorities is not an assault on our sovereignty, but the result of a mutual assistance treaty that has served both countries well.

When we identify suspects who have committed crimes in Canada and fled to the U.S., authorities there help our police with their investigations, just as police in Vancouver and Halifax did in the Emery case.

The issue of extradition is almost as straightforward. Emery and his associates can be extradited to face charges in the U.S. as long as crimes for which they are sought are also offences in Canada.

As we have argued extensively in this space, the laws regarding the sale and possession of marijuana in Canada are desperately in need of a major overhaul. If nothing else, the fact that we have on the books a law that makes the possession and sale of marijuana seeds a criminal offence -- a law that is almost universally ignored by police -- is a good example of just how dysfunctional our laws have become.

All that, however, is an aside in the Emery case. So too is Canadian public opinion on marijuana use. Or our opinion, for that matter, which is that a Canadian purveyor of pot seeds is a pretty pathetic target for the American war on drugs.

The only thing that really matters here is that if Emery chose to violate American law, as he's alleged to have done, the Prince of Pot must now answer for that choice.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good points Tom. :cheers:

 

[modarnis]

I have no doubt in my mind that the US government would NOT allow extradition if the situation was reversed. Try the person in the US probably, but not let that person be tried by a foreign court.

And do you have any specific examples in mind? I have personally been involved in a case where a person was extradited back to Canada to answer charges there. No fuss, only an extra step involving the feds to sign off on their version of what we refer to as a governor's warrant, basically an acknowledgement of "foreign" (refering to outside jurisdiction, not necessarily a different nation) charges.

You can believe what you want, but it happens rather routinely between US and Canada, especially in border states

 

[Andrew Green]

Not all Canadians are that upset over this either.

Have all Americans ever agreed on something?

 

[FearlessFreep]

At first reading the subject heading, I thought it was going to be about an activity commited only in Canada which was not illegal in Canada but was illegal in the US. *That* would be something.

However if the crimes were commited against the US, as seems to apply here, then it seems to be just a simple extridition case. Why the fuss? This stuff happens a lot. Usually the only time it becomes a big deal is if one nation doesn't want to extradite because they have moral objections to the punishment to be faced by the one being extridited. For example, if someone commits a crime in the US for which the death penalty is a possible penalty, and flees to another country, some counties, if they don't have a dealth penly themselvese, are reluctant to extridite someone to the US if they could face that punishment. I think there was a case a fewyears ago of some US citizens in Singapore who broke local law and a lot of people here were upset because the punishment was caning. Other than that or I guess situations where there is fear that the accused is being railroaded, I don't think it really becomes that big an issue

 

[Tgace]

The extradition hearing HASNT EVEN BEEN HELD yet. This is all furor over the fact he was even arrested. Im betting he never gets extradited because of the position it puts the Canadian Gvt. in. (they have to either outright legalize pot or get tough on enforcing existing law).

This is more about Pot than it is about any sovereignty issues IMO.

 

[modarnis]

The US doesn't have a great record where honoring treaties is concerned.
Just ask the Seneca Nation.

I think it's hypocritical for a nation to expect a foriegn power to pass over their citizens for prosecution, while insisting that it's own citizens be exempt from the same.

Since you live up in Buffalo, do you have any examples where U.S. citizens were prevented from being extradited to Canada by the U.S. government? Since you are direct neighbors, extraditions probably happen several times a month and never garners any media attention or government resistance.

I agree with Tom, if this were an assault or a theft, there wouldn't be an issue. Since it is really about Pot, people come out of the woodwork to complain about a usually unnewsworthy, routine event in the day to day of the criminal justice system

 

[sgtmac_46]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_criminal_court

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050714/news_lz1e14sloman.html


Somehow I really doubt the American Government would just say "Ok, he's yours" if the situation was reversed...

If they refuse to let there citizens be tried internationally for Crimes Against humanity, when they had initially agreed to the treaty, why would we expect them to turn over someone mailing drugs across the border?

Treaty or no, if the situation was reversed we wouldn't be getting any American extradited to Canada.

Big difference between allowing another country to try a US criminal (I have no problem with it) and allowing a European court to gain political points by "trying" a US citizen for cooked up war crimes charges. Sorry, no dice. And it seems your point has already been deflated.

And do you have any specific examples in mind? I have personally been involved in a case where a person was extradited back to Canada to answer charges there. No fuss, only an extra step involving the feds to sign off on their version of what we refer to as a governor's warrant, basically an acknowledgement of "foreign" (refering to outside jurisdiction, not necessarily a different nation) charges.

You can believe what you want, but it happens rather routinely between US and Canada, especially in border states

So it seems you are not only wrong, Andrew, but way wrong as this kind of thing happens in reverse on a regular basis.

 

[Bester]

List of Main Crimes Committed and Incidents Concerning the U.S. Military on Okinawa - Excerpts

Since the reversion of Okinawa to Japan in 1972, approximately 4,700 crimes have been committed by U.S. military personnel. The relatively serious crimes and incidents concerning US military, from which Okinawan people have suffered are extracted below.

[Translation from the Okinawa Times, Oct.12,1995]

Before the Reversion

Aug.6,1948 Ammunition exploded while the US Navy was loading the bomb stored during W.W.II into cargo-ship at Kabira New Peer. The explosion killed 106 and wounded 76 passengers leaving a nearby ferryboat.

Aug.2,1950 A refuel tank was dropped on the yard of a private house from the US Army aircraft flying over Yomitan Village and exploded, killing one and injuring three.

Oct.20,1951 A fuel tank was dropped on a private house from a US airforce fighter in Makishi, Naha. It burned the house totally, killing six residents.

Sep.4,1955 A six-year-old girl, living in Ishikawa City was found murdered in Kadena area. A US sergeant was arrested and sentenced to death in December. Rycom Compensation Examining Committee informed the bereaved family of the payment of $2000 compensation, one eighth of the amount claimed. Later, the sentence was reduced to 45 years' heavy labor servitude.

Mar.8, 1956 A 28-year-old man crossing the road in Urasoe Village was run over and killed by a Military Police (MP) car. A US serviceman driving the police car was judged 'not guilty'.

Jun.30, 1959 A US Airforce fighter crashed on the schoolhouse of Miyanomori Elementary School in Ishikawa City, killing seventeen pupils and teachers and injuring over 100.

Oct.28,1959 A 23-year-old woman employee of a club for foreigners was strangled to death in Center Street of Koza City. Two days later, a 24-year-old US serviceman was arrested, and sentenced to three years' imprisonment the next year.

Dec.26,1959 A farmer, fifty-five-year-old woman picking up used bullets, was shot to death by a US sergeant in Camp Hansen of Kin Town. The sergeant testified that he took her for a wild boar. US Army decided to pay $2700 compensation to the bereaved family. The sergeant was judged 'not guilty' by court-martial the next year.

Dec.9,1960 An American hunter shot a 73-year-old man to death in Miwa Village mistaking him for an animal.

Feb.1,1961 A twenty-year-old man was shot to death while he was picking up used bullets in the US Army firing training area of Iye Island. US Military Police judged this case a "self-injuring deed".

Jul.11,1961 An 47-year-old employee was murdered with an edged tool in a bar in Henoko, Kushi Village. Two marines, both 20 years old, confessed their crime and one of them was imprisoned for life.

Sep.19,1961 A US serviceman hit four pupils and escaped in Koza City; nine- and ten-year-old schoolgirls were killed. The court-martial sentenced the accused to one-rank demotion and six months' confinement to barracks.

Dec.7,1961 A car driven by US Army jet fighter crashed on a private house in Kawasaki, Gushikawa Village; six citizens killed or injured. US Army paid $623 compensation to the bereaved family.

Dec.20,1962 A US transport aircraft crashed on a private house in Yara of Kadena Town; seven citizens were killed and eight were seriously or slightly injured.

Feb.28,1963 A 12-year-old junior high school boy on the way home from school was hit and killed by a car driven by a 20-year-old US serviceman on Root 1 in Naha City. This criminal was judged 'not guilty' by court-martial in May, which caused a prefecture-wide protest movements.

Jul.3,1963 A 22-year-old woman employee of a diner, was strangled to death. A 19-year-old US Marine confessed his crime and was sentenced to eighteen years' imprisonment by court-martial.

Jan.21,1964 A taxi driver was attacked by a couple of US Military servicemen on the road of Kin Village and was robbed of his taxi.

Aug.10,1964 A 32-year-old man, gathering sea shells on Kuwae beach, Chatan Town, was hit by a stray bullet, and died three days later. US Army paid $2000 compensation to his family, though the family had claimed $6000.

Jan.24,1965 A 28-year-old woman working at a bar for foreigners was murdered at her house in Kin Village. A US serviceman was examined as a suspect by US Army detective organization.

Jun.11,1965 A small size trailer dropped from a US bomber on Oyashi of Yomitan Village during bombing exercise, killing an eleven-year-old schoolgirl. The US Army announced that it was dropped mistakenly. The compensation paid was slightly more than $4,700.

May 20,1966 A jet fighter failed in taking off Kadena base, hit and killed a 33-year-old man walking on the road outside the base. The family was compensated $14,000,¡¡one fifth of the amount claimed.

May 20,1966 A taxi driver was stabbed to death in Naha City. Okinawa Prefectural Police concluded according to the eyewitnesses that the crime was committed by a US serviceman. The accused was finally kept in custody by US Army.

Jul.22,1966 A 34-year-old woman was found murdered in Shinkaichi, Kin Town. US Army arrested a 19-year-old military deserter as a suspect.

Dec.3,1966 A man trying to arbitrate a quarrel between US servicemen was shot to death in Business Center Street of Koza City.

Jan.5.1967 An Okinawan guard was robbed of a pistol by two US servicemen in the camp of Misato Village. Two US servicemen, after committing burglary and injury in Koza City and in Naha City, were arrested by US Army.

Jan.24,1967 A 32-year-old woman employee was strangled to death in her diner in Shinkaichi, Kin Village. A 19-year-old US Marine was arrested by the US Army and was sentenced to 35 years' heavy labor servitude by court-martial.

Mar.23,1967 A 56-year-old worker was run over and killed by a US Army trailer in Naha naval port. The driver left the dead body alone .

May 4,1967 Rejected oil of US Army was found discharged into four wells in Yara, Kadena Town.

Jul.24,1967 A 31-year-old taxi driver was stabbed to death in Urasoe Village. Futenma Police station arrested a US serviceman and handed him over to US Army.

Aug.2,1967 A 16-year-old high school boy running for his school activity was hit and killed by a US Army vehicle in Enobi, Gushikawa Village. A¡¡21-year-old US serviceman driving it ran away but was arrested later. He was sentenced to one year's imprisonment with hard labor and discharge from his military service.

Nov.8,1967 A four-year-old girl was run over and killed by a crane of US Army in Gushikawa Village.

Jan.30,1968 A 35-five-year-old maid was killed in a barrack of US Army. A joint investigation meeting of military and civilian police was held on April 1.

Jun.20,1968 A 23-year-old woman employee of diner was raped and heavily injured on the beach of Ginoza Village by a MP on duty.

Nov.19,1968 A B-52 bomber crashed on Kadena Air Base, injuring four residents.

Jul.8,1969 A gas leaking accident happened on the base. Twenty-four army staff members disposed were hospitalized. US Army confessed the disposition of poisonous gas weapons.

Mar.12,1970 Sixty-two pistols were stolen in the base of Henoko, Nago City.

May 28,1970 A 21-year-old woman employee of the army was assaulted on the way to work by a US serviceman in the army post of Yafuso, Urasoe Village. The accused was judged 'not guilty' by court-martial due to lack of evidence .

May 30,1970 A 16-year-old high school girl was assaulted and was stabbed with a knife to serious injury in Gushikawa Village. A 22-year-old US serviceman was arrested by Koza Police and US Army. The criminal was sentenced to three years' imprisonment. Villagers criticized it saying, "the punishment is too light".

Dec.7,1970 On the retrial of a 21-year-old US serviceman, who had been on trial by court-martial under the suspicion of hitting a 51-year-old woman and running away in Itoman Town since September of the previous year, was judged not guilty. US Army decided to pay $17,000 compensation.

Dec.20,1970 The traffic accident caused by a US serviceman raised a disturbance among the crowd in Koza City. 73 US Army vehicles were burned.

Jan.13,1971 Due to the transportation of US Army poison gas, five thousand people living along the route evacuated.

April 23,1971 A 23-year-old woman employee of a diner was struck with a stone to death by a US serviceman in Ohyama, Ginowan City. The suspect was arrested by U.S.Army but was judged 'not guilty' due to lack of evidence.

May 1,1971 A 42-year-old woman was stabbed to death at her home of Kin. US-Japan Joint investigation was pursued on the assumption that the crime was committed by US servicemen.

Oct. 2,1971 A 40-year-old taxi driver was found murdered on the farm road in Mihara, Ishikawa City.

Apr.10,1972 A 25-year-old woman employee of a diner near Awase golf course in Kita-Nakagusuku Village.

After the Reversion

Aug.4,1972 A 37-year-old woman employee was strangled to death by an 18-year-old US serviceman¡¡at a bar in Ojana, Ginowan City. In the following year, the serviceman was convicted to be imprisoned for life.

Sep. 20,1972 At Camp Hansen, a 37-year-old Japanese military employee was shot to death with a rifle by a US serviceman. It was the first murder by shooting within the base after the Reversion. The accused denied the intent to murder at the first trial. On April '74, Naha Local Court gave a decision of "not guilty", judging the accused to be non compos. The accused was accordingly sent back to USA and was taken to the Naval Hospital.

Sep.26,1972 It was revealed that a US serviceman who allegedly killed a 50-year-old Japanese man by running over had been sentenced of "no guilty".

Dec.1,1972 A 19-year-old US serviceman strangled a 22-year-old woman in Koza City. The serviceman was sentenced to be imprisoned for life at the court of first instance.

Mar.18,1973 A 43-year-old woman employee of a diner was strangled to death at her apartment in Koza City. The city police office and the US Army jointly concluded that the murder was conducted by a US serviceman.

Apr.12,1973 A 73-year-old woman picking up bullets at Blue Beach, Kin Village was run over by a tank and killed. The US Army notified the Prefectural Office of exercising the primary jurisdiction asserting that the incident occurred in line of duty.

Jul.10,1974 A 20-year-old man mowing in the military firing range at Iye Village w as shot by two US servicemen. He was wounded at his left hand requiring three weeks to heel. The US Army first declared the waiver of jurisdiction regarding it as an incident off duty. But, it reversed the decision later: the US Airforce Commander at Okinawa notified the Naha District Prosecutors Office that "US side will exercise the jurisdiction because it is a crime committed in line of duty."

Oct.23,1974 A 52-year-old woman manager of a Cafe at Henoko, Nago City was, while sleeping at her cafe, hit to death with a cement block by a US serviceman intending robbery.

Dec. 1,1974 At Wakasa, Naha City, a 24-year-old man on his way home was shot by a US serviceman intending robbery and got injured at his right hand.

Apr.19,1975 Two junior high school girls were raped by a 21-year old US serviceman in Kin Village. This incident became an object of public concern, and the accused was handed over to Japan side after he was indicted. He was later sentenced to six years imprisonment.

Apr.23,1975 Sexivalent chromium ( a kind of heavy metal, a powerful oxidizer) was detected to be discharged from Maki-minato US base. Later, a testimony by a Japanese ex-employee revealed that five people had been sacrificed.

Feb.26,1976 A 40-year-old worker at Maki-minato supply base got seriously injured as a suspect case of poisoning by methyl bromide. Two months later a doctor in Mainland Japan announced that the injury was caused by methyl bromide poisoning.

Dec.29,1978 A US servicemen at the exercise in the Henoko Camp, Nago City made wild firing of machine guns toward Kyoda Village. Shot holes were detected at private houses.

Aug.2,1979 Some bullets, suspected to be from US military machine guns, were shot into a water tank of a pigsty at Sukuda, Nago City. The US Commander expressed his regret in May.

Nov.5,1979 A US army signal bomb dropped onto the garden of a private house in Kin Village. The US army announced that it was just a mischief by a US serviceman.

Oct.1,1980 An observation aircraft crashed on the runway of Futenma Marine Base, killing one member of the crew.

Apr.21,1981 A Marine parachute exercising at Yomitan auxiliary airport fell near Furugen Elementary School, causing a turmoil among the pupils at the morning meeting.

Mar.8,1982 A 48-year-old jobless man was found to be killed in the graveyard in Kin Town. Ishikawa Police Office arrested a 20-year old US serviceman in the base with the permission of the US Investigation Headquarters. Naha District Court ordered the accused in March, 1983 to pay forty million yen.

Aug.2,1982 A 33-year-old woman employee of a diner at a house building site in Henoko, Nago City, was strangled to death by a 22-year-old US serviceman.

Aug.19,1982 A US military helicopter crashed in Futenma Base.

Feb.23,1983 A 40-year-old taxi driver was stabbed to death by two US servicemen in Camp Hansen, Kin Town. In November Naha District Court sentenced the two accused to imprisonment for life.

Apr.4, 1983 A 41-year-old village resident walking out of the fence of a US military facility in Yomitan Village got fire warning shots by military police.

May 18,1984 In Kyoda, Nago City, a dump truck was shot at the front part by a machine gun bullet apparently from a US tank.

Jan.16,1985 A 51-year-old junkman was stabbed to death while sleeping by a 20-year-old US serviceman intending theft. The accused was sentenced to imprisonment for life at Naha District Court. In January 1988, the Supreme Court dismissed the final appeal, thus determining the sentence.

July 12, 1985 A US military helicopter crashed on the mountain path near Henoko Dam, Kunigami Village, killing all of the four crew members.

Oct.29,1985 Ishikawa Police Office arrested two US servicemen in the act of raping a woman after abducting her by a car on her way home.

Sep.27,1986 A bullet from US military M16 rifle broke a window of a private house in Igei, Kin Town.

Jul.9,1987 The water pipe from the Shiobaru Reservoir at Yakaku, Kin Town was broken by US military M16 rifle causing suspension of water supply to some houses.

Jun.4,1988 Two men driving prefecture road No.70 at Takae, Higashi Village complained of pain at eyes and throat. It was later attributed to the discharge of tear gas.

Aug.12,1988 In July 1987, a Malaysian cargo ship was shot by a mock bomb off Kume Island. The US army announced that the incident was that the formation chief mistook the ship for an island. The Eleventh Regional Maritime Safety Headquarters sent the papers pertaining to the formation chief to the Public Prosecutors Office.

Oct.15,1988 Several bullets, suspected to be from the US exercise field, were found one after another at a private house in Igei, Kin Town. One of the bullets nearly shot a citizen's abdomen.

Oct.31,1988 A US military helicopter crashed near the training field in Takae, Higashi Village, killing four people.

Dec.24,1988 A tear gas bomb was thrown into a disco in Okinawa City, which caused two hundred people fall down. Two lost consciousness. The US marine announced a suspension of using tear gas for the time being.

Mar.14, 1989 A US military helicopter crashed on the sea near Iye Island, killing three crew members.

Nov.4, 1989 American boys and so on, one after another, shot air guns.

Jun.14, 1991 A 34-year-old jobless man was stabbed to death by a 20-year-old US serviceman. The serviceman was sentenced to nine years' penal servitude.

Oct.15,1991 A US serviceman fired blank shots at a private car on the Town Road passing through Camp Hansen in Kin Town.

Jan.17,1992 Three US servicemen committed robbery at a private house in Okinawa City. Two of them kept in custody by the US army escaped out of the base. One of them was arrested later in the United States.

Oct.20, 1992 A large-size helicopter crashed in Futenma base near Futenma Dai-ni Elementary School.

Apr. 11,1993 A 33-year-old carpenter was clubbed to death by a 18-year-old marine.

Jul.17,1993 A 25-year-old US serviceman under confinement within the base as a suspected case of raping a 19-year-old Japanese woman escaped back to United States by a commercial aircraft. He was arrested in US and was sent back to Okinawa.

Nov.16, 1994 A US military helicopter crashed in Camp Schwab in Henoko, Nago City, killing and injuring five people.

May 10,1995 A 24-year-old insurance saleswoman was hit on the face with a hammer by a 20-year-old US serviceman in front of her apartment house. She died.

Sep.4,1995 Three US servicemen raped a 12-year-old schoolgirl.

[10/12/1995 from The Okinawa Times]

 

[RickRed]

List of Main Crimes Committed and Incidents Concerning the U.S. Military on Okinawa - Excerpts

[10/12/1995 from The Okinawa Times]

This is a strange turn for the thread, after reading through all the posts before it. What does it have to do with anything. Does Japan have the same treaty arrangement as Canada with the US? If not, it has no bearing.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is a strange turn for the thread, after reading through all the posts before it. What does it have to do with anything. Does Japan have the same treaty arrangement as Canada with the US? If not, it has no bearing.

What's furthermore, it's apples and oranges. I have no problem with the US military maintaining jursidiction over military personnell. To do otherwise would be to open US military personnell deployed overseas to harassment prosecution by local governments for political gain.

As far as i'm concerned, if a US soldier commits a grievous crime, such as the murder of a child in Okinawa, the US military should STILL maintain jurisdiction...right up until they hang him while other military personnell and the victims family look on. The military are responsible for everything it's personnell due, and it is responsible for punishing them severly for violating their oath. I don't want military personnell escaping punishment for what they do, I just don't want military personnell subject to political prosecution for political gain.

Besides, with all the whining on the left about how horrible US prisons are, and how much better they treat prisoners in other parts of the world (lol), you should be happy some soldier is sent to Leavenworth KS for 25 years.

This issue is far different, a Canadian citizen has committed a crime in the US by exporting a controlled substance in to the US on repeated occassions, simultaneously violating US and Canadian. What's furthermore, the Canadian government has the option of refusing extradition, but they don't really care. Case closed.

What's furthemore, we've already established that we extradite US citizens TO Canada all the time, so this is a non-issue.

 

[ave_turuta]

In international law, these matters are usually resolved through a principle called universal jurisdiction. Although the information in all the news clippings is a little shady and I cannot make up my mind, it seems to me as if the US is overstepping its jurisdictional boundaries in this particular case, since this particular person is not comitting any crimes on US soil. Jurisdiction is closely related to territoriality, i.e. you cannot commit a crime in a territory where that particular behavior is not penalized as such. Further, when and if you do, you are to be tried according to the laws of the country where the crime was committed (this is a basic principle of international law). Only after you have been tried and sentenced can another nation initiate an extradiction procedure, but certain conditions need to be met. For instance, persons in countries that are signatories to certain conventions cannot be sent to countries where they would be subject to cruel or inhumane punishment, so for instance European countries will ***not***, under any circumstance, extradite one of its citizens to the United States if the person can face the death penalty, which is outlawed in Europe. In this particular case, the Canadian citizen could fight his extradiction to the US arguing, for instance, that he has already served a prison term in Canada and thus no further punishment is needed, or even that the punishment a US court would potentially issue is not according to the punishment guidelines set by Canadian law, thus being excessive. Ultimately, I think it is very unlikely he will be sent to the US: it poses more diplomatic problems and jurisdictional headaches than it solves any problems. They will try him in Canada and perhaps make an example out of him, but that's about it.

Matters of international law are extremely complex and unfortunately in all that i read about this case it is not clear what the basis of the US claim is, but it seems to me that the US is applying a very wide understanding of both the treaty with Canada and universal jurisdiction to act as a sort of "cowboy" in the prosecution of crimes committed on foreign soil. Whether this is also a crime in US soil or even whether the repercussions of the crime affect Americans cannot be a basis for prosecution, unless, as I said, you have a very open understanding of universal jurisdiction. But then again, the US refuses to allow other nations to apply this principle when it comes to "crimes" committed by US persons on foreign soil, so... hmmmmmmm

A.T.

 

[ave_turuta]

This issue is far different, a Canadian citizen has committed a crime in the US by exporting a controlled substance in to the US on repeated occassions, simultaneously violating US and Canadian.

No, he hasn't. None of the clippings said he had committed a crime on US soil. I'll give you another example: imagine you have a friend who is a permanent US resident but is a citizen of, say, Iran, where homosexuality is punishable by death. Now, this person lives in the US and runs a website that people in Iran can read on gay and lesbian rights. Now, imagine Iran being so concerned about this that they decide to try this person for "crimes against nature" and requests the extradition of this person for a "crime" that is only so in Iran and that further, has been committed on US soil, where that particular action is ****not**** a crime. Most naturally, the US would refuse to extradite this person, even if s/he was an Iranian citizen, because of a plethora of reasons. The point is, nations cannot freely claim jurisdiction over actions that are committed on foreign soil without a certain set of conditions being met. The actions of this person affecting US citizens or US territory is not, per se, a sufficient fact to justify extradition to a foreign court of law, unless you are operating under a treaty. but then, the person is a foreign citizen adn has the right to be tried according to the laws of the country where the "crime" has been committed, then fight extradition on the terms set by that same law, regardless of what the treaty says. I am a foreign national living in the United States: one of the first things you learn when you live in a foreign country is that even as a foreign citizen, you are subject to the laws of that territory. Very important rule. The US cannot become a global police and enforce its own laws on foreign citizens of foreign nations; unless, of course, they wish the same thing to happen to them and have US citizens extradited to foreign nations and be tried by foreign courts. It's a very serious matter. Because the US and Canada have signed an extradition treaty, it would seem at first as if the US had an unquestionnable right to extradite this person. However, reading the treaty itself (see below) I do not have such a clear idea any longer, for it seems as if this person cuold actually fight extradition on several grounds.

The US has made the consistent argument, for instance, that Augusto Pinochet cannot be tried in Spain for crimes committed against Spanish citizens in Chile. Why, then, does it claim jurisdiction over a guy who is committing a crime on foreign soil??? Double standards, it seems to me.

peace,

A.T.

 

[ave_turuta]

I have been doing a little bit of research on the extradition treaty between canada and the US. Here are some of the articles I think are of relevance:

Article 3(3): (3) When the offense for which extradition has been requested has been committed outside the territory of the requesting State, the executive or other appropriate authority of the requested State shall have the power to grant the extradition if the laws of the requested State provide for jurisdiction over such an offense committed in similar circumstances.

First point, then, is to determine whether this is applicable or not.

Article 4: (1)Extradition shall not be granted in any of the following circumstances: (i) When the person whose surrender is sought is being proceeded against, or has been tried and discharged or punished in the territory of the requested State for the offense for which his extradition is requested.

(ii) When the prosecution for the offense has become barred by lapse of time according to the laws of the requesting State.

(iii) When the offense in respect of which extradition is requested is of a political character, or the person whose extradition is requested proves that the extradition request has been made for the purpose of trying or punishing him for an offense of the above-mentioned character. If any question arises as to whether a case comes within the provisions of this subparagraph, the authorities of the Government on which the requisition is made shall decide.

If this person is tried and punished in canada, he cannot be extradited, period. Furthermore, even if he wasn't, he could still fight extradition charges arguing that the push behind the exztradition petition has more to do with political reasons than with having comitted a crime, given the very complicated nature of legislative changes occuring in the US when it comes to issues of marihuana consumption and distribution, etc.

Article 8

The determination that extradition should or should not be granted shall be made in accordance with the law of the requested State and the person whose extradition is sought shall have the right to use all remedies and recourses provided by such law.


There are other pertinent articles such as art. 2 which you can study if clicking on the link above.


A.T.