United Martial Artists for Christ

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a big fan of mixing religion with martial arts. You want to learn to defend yourself, go to the dojang. You want to learn to pray, go to church. I have found over the years that punching beats praying in a self-defense situation every time.

That's my thought, too. In fact, I think there's a significant loss if we combine the two, simply because it limits the viewpoints and thoughts that are likely to enter the discussions and training. At the same time, if the goal isn't self-defense (where more viewpoints often leads to better in-class validation and more challenging questions), then mixing the two may have no ill effects. If someone wants to spend more times with their fellow Hare Krishna, spending that time in a Hapkido class is as good as anywhere else.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

...I have found over the years that punching beats praying in a self-defense situation every time.

I agree but by then, you're too late. I have found over the years that praying ahead of time almost always prevents a self-defense situation from arising.



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[drop bear]

That's my thought, too. In fact, I think there's a significant loss if we combine the two, simply because it limits the viewpoints and thoughts that are likely to enter the discussions and training. At the same time, if the goal isn't self-defense (where more viewpoints often leads to better in-class validation and more challenging questions), then mixing the two may have no ill effects. If someone wants to spend more times with their fellow Hare Krishna, spending that time in a Hapkido class is as good as anywhere else.

Which you can do without having to have dedicated Christian hapkido.

The idea of cultural segregation does not really sit well with me

 

[TSDTexan]

What we need now is a United Protestant Karate Fighters Union and a Jews for Kumite group, Muslims for Muay Thai, the Jehova Jump Kickers, and, of course, the Buddhist Bad Asses. Hell, we can host a tournament, I'll gladly ref.

I hope nobody takes my comment as blasphemous, just funnin' a bit. Let's all pull the trigger for Jesus, shall we?

But what about Messianic Jews?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which you can do without having to have dedicated Christian hapkido.

The idea of cultural segregation does not really sit well with me

It's not my cup of tea, either, but I don't see much harm in someone using their martial arts time to hang out with like-minded folks.

 

[drop bear]

It's not my cup of tea, either, but I don't see much harm in someone using their martial arts time to hang out with like-minded folks.

Your team needs some diversity. It is what makes you interesting.

 

[TSDTexan]

Your team needs some diversity. It is what makes you interesting.

Speaking which


Power Rangers Movie (2017) Official Teaser Trailer - YouTube

 

[John Brewer]

Does anyone here have experience with this organization? If so, will you share? Thank you.
Karate, Martial Arts, Christian Karate - Christian Martial Arts - For Youth and Families

Hi maybe I can help. UMAFC is an organization that uses martial arts demonstrations in an outreach event setting to tell people about God. Mr. Mitchell does have a class and there is also a class at South Bay Calvary but UMAFC is actually the outreach event.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm... Leaving off the whole Christian ideology and other issues, I just wanted to address one aspect of this thread, namely, that of the bowing in Japanese arts.

It is religious. Deal with it.

To be clear, I'm talking specifically about things like the bowing to the founder/kamiza/kamidana/shomen at the beginning and end of class, more than bowing to partners before and after training, although the influence there is something that should always be considered as well. But that initial bow? It's a Shinto ritual. Whether or not your dojo points that out, makes a big deal about it, mentions it at all, or is even in any real way aware of it, it is a Shinto ritual. Hell, the dojo's structure is based (largely) on Shinto shrines or temples... the word "dojo" itself comes from Buddhism... and many martial traditions have their origins centred in Buddhist Temples or Shinto Shrines, with deep historical, geographical, philosophical, and spiritual connections to these religious forms.

Obviously, this is something that has it's origins in older arts... however, the basic ideas, forms, structures, rituals, and more are just as present in modern arts... Judo and Aikido classes begin with a bow towards the front of the dojo, commonly with a picture of Kano or Ueshiba, or perhaps a senior founder of the line you're studying... this is a Shinto bow. It is showing respect for those that have come before you, yeah... but that's pretty much a core aspect of Shinto in the first place. Sometimes you'll see a few claps between two bows... which is designed to both scare off potentially ill-intended spirits, and awaken protective ones... very much Shinto. If there's a small model building at the front of the dojo, that's a kamidana... a house for spirits. The front of the dojo is called the kamiza... where the spirits sit.

What all of this means is that, if you don't attribute any religious aspects to the building, the activities engaged in, the rituals, and so on, you're denying much of why what you're doing is there in the first place... you're, essentially, ignoring large parts of what you do... which leads to you missing many of the lessons and their reasons. Can you do that? Sure... but it's like learning to play tennis by only limiting yourself to forehand lobs, and ignoring where the lines are on the court... sure, you'll have fun hitting a ball around, but are you really playing tennis? Or just hitting a ball with a racquet?

As a result, I'm completely with Paul when he said he told the guy who came along that he'd never make him do anything that went against his religious beliefs as he walked him out the door... I'd do the same thing. From my perspective, and I'd suggest probably Paul's as well, if you're not going to do the thing, don't do the thing. Additionally, if your religion forbids something, then you can't do it... unless you want to go against your religion. And that's a spiritual choice the person needs to make for themselves. But to say "well, we don't think of it as a religious action" is kinda irrelevant... you may class yourself as a vegetarian, but when you're eating steak, not thinking of it as once being a cow doesn't change what it is.

Thing is, from a Japanese religious perspective, there's no conflict having multiple religious influences and beliefs... you can follow Shinto practices, attend a Buddhist temple, embrace Taoism (another influence on the dojo that adds more layers to things), and, from a Japanese perspective, also be a Christian. It's really only the Western religions that turn around and, essentially, say "my way only"... even when the difference is minimalist, only the one form that's being followed by the person in question is the "right" one... so the restriction will come from the Western religious side of things.

Of course, this whole idea of "Christian Karate" or similar strikes me as highly amusing... as the idea is often to have a martial art that is devoid of Eastern religious ideals and concepts... but are universally done by people with such a lack of insight into such concepts that they don't even know what is or is not influenced by, or are outright Eastern religious aspects and concepts there in the first place. The only safe way to not have any Japanese religious aspect is simply... do boxing. If you're doing karate, or anything similar and based in such systems, then the simple fact is, you're engaging in Japanese religious practices... even when you don't know you are.

 

[Steve]

I don't get it. Seriously. Karate without bowing is like tennis without a net and chalk lines? That makes no sense.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I get that you don't get it... that's apparent in your mis-grasp of my comments.

No, I mentioned nothing about what karate is, I was talking about Japanese arts in general (including karate, of course). Secondly, have you ever encountered the phrase "Karate (or Budo, or any activity specified by the context, actually) begins and ends with rei (bowing, etiquette, ritual etc)" (Rei ni hajimari, rei ni owaru - 礼に始まり礼に終わる)? That kinda talks specifically to the concept, you know... as it's not really saying what is commonly thought, that it all begins and ends with respect (to each other), but that each training session begins and ends with an acknowledgement of the previous generations, the particular guardian deities associated with the art and dojo, and so on... in other words, with a ritual based in Shinto beliefs and thoughts.

So, what I was saying was that to participate in a Japanese martial art without acknowledging the reality that much of what you're doing is, indeed, religious in base, intent, and even deed, is to miss so much of the point and reality of what you're doing that it's like thinking tennis is just the hitting of a ball with a racquet. Perhaps it makes more sense to you to say that it's like tennis without the scoring, then? The actions are ostensibly the same, as are the surrounds, but there's really none of the point (of course, by simply keeping the surrounds the same in a martial art, you're now already in a religious building/environment... hence my removal of the lines of the court in the first case).

 

[drop bear]

the advantage of defining yourself as Christian Karate is you can just say what you do is not taoist. Because it is not Karate it is Christian Karate

So imagine it is like playing tennis but on a table with ping pong balls and a paddle

 

[Chris Parker]

No, that's the same as declaring yourself vegetarian when eating a steak. The core of the culture that influenced and shaped the art (karate) gave it a number of religious aspects... whether they're addressed or even acknowledged or not, they're there. Simply denying them doesn't change them, or remove them, which is my point.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not at Chris, I believe he already knows this...but....Just for the record, Karate is Japanese.... Taoism is Chinese..... Japanese art better off using Shinto or Buddhism....just sayin

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah... but not exactly without influence in Japan.... Dave Lowry's "In The Dojo" recounts an encounter he had with a Chado (Tea Ceremony) teacher, who spoke about the large influence Taoism has on Chado... talking about the Tao of the chashitsu (a small hut for the practice of tea). She then asked him if he'd considered the Tao of the dojo... which is quite an interesting concept in itself...

 

[oftheherd1]

Very interesting perspective Chris Parker. What I have seen of Aikido bowing to their founder, does indeed make me think of ancestor worship. I would not want to do that. But as you said, all your comments refer to Japanese arts. I have never studied one. I have only studied TKD and Hapkido. Neither one required me to perform a bow with a religious connotation.

I don't mean to speak for all Korean arts, their founders, their GMs or other teachers. My TKD teacher was a follower of Song Myong Moon. You had to really press him to get him to discuss his religion even in private. My Hapkido GM was a Christian. I don't recall him ever mentioning it in a class. I only know because we became friends over time.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, I get that you don't get it... that's apparent in your mis-grasp of my comments.

It's possible that it's because your analogies kind of suck. Nah. You're right. It couldn't be you. You use so many words and speak with such authority, it would be inconceivable.

No, I mentioned nothing about what karate is, I was talking about Japanese arts in general (including karate, of course).

So then... yeah. You were talking about karate. Other stuff, too. But yeah. Karate.

Secondly, have you ever encountered the phrase "Karate (or Budo, or any activity specified by the context, actually) begins and ends with rei (bowing, etiquette, ritual etc)" (Rei ni hajimari, rei ni owaru - 礼に始まり礼に終わる)? That kinda talks specifically to the concept, you know... as it's not really saying what is commonly thought, that it all begins and ends with respect (to each other), but that each training session begins and ends with an acknowledgement of the previous generations, the particular guardian deities associated with the art and dojo, and so on... in other words, with a ritual based in Shinto beliefs and thoughts.

Okay. So, broad strokes here, are you suggesting that the idea of homage to previous generations is a uniquely Shinto thing, or are you saying that bowing to the picture on the wall before and after each Karate (or whatever) class is uniquely Shinto?

So, what I was saying was that to participate in a Japanese martial art without acknowledging the reality that much of what you're doing is, indeed, religious in base, intent, and even deed, is to miss so much of the point and reality of what you're doing that it's like thinking tennis is just the hitting of a ball with a racquet. Perhaps it makes more sense to you to say that it's like tennis without the scoring, then? The actions are ostensibly the same, as are the surrounds, but there's really none of the point (of course, by simply keeping the surrounds the same in a martial art, you're now already in a religious building/environment... hence my removal of the lines of the court in the first case).

Honestly, it tickles my funny bone that you are using a sport analogy. That, with your history of sport vs street vs self defense, your first turn is to a sport analogy. But, yeah. The sport analogy doesn't work because you are mixing up physical, tangible, demonstrable skill with a strictly spiritual pursuit. A more correct analogy is that karate (or whatever) never applied is like tennis without a racquet. Fighting skills never applied in a fight are like playing Wii tennis. You're going through the motions, but who knows if the skills are transferable?

No, that's the same as declaring yourself vegetarian when eating a steak. The core of the culture that influenced and shaped the art (karate) gave it a number of religious aspects... whether they're addressed or even acknowledged or not, they're there. Simply denying them doesn't change them, or remove them, which is my point.

No, it's really not like this. Your analogy is just.. .terrible, Chris. Come on. It's more like a vegetarian eating a tofurkey burger. It's more akin to the Brazilians taking a uniquely Japanese art, discarding the stuff they didn't need and building on what they did. Is BJJ a Japanese art? I'd say that it is not, but it's important to remember that it is derived from Japan.

In the same way, when a Christian celebrates Easter or Christmas, they are celebrating a Christian holiday even if we know that the timing and some of the rituals are of pagan origin.

 

[John Brewer]

I'm pretty sure this thread was someone asking about our organization not bowing. That being said we bow in class out of respect. Some pretty funny comments in the thread though.

 

[Steve]

Bowing, in and of itself, cannot approach religious reverence. That requires intent, not a simple movement of the body. Given the cultural context (it's just a very formal show of respect), it's only worrisome if you ignore the intent behind it. This approach could also lead someone to see an enthusiastic, 2-handed handshake as a display of domination.

Very much my opinion on the matter. I am a heathen raised in a family of heathens. But my parents thought it was important that we understand at least some of what most everyone around us believed. So, as a kid, I went to a Catholic school for a few years, as well as a Lutheran school. I participated in the rituals and devotions and prayers, and don't think too much about it one way or the other. While I have no doubt that some of the other kids were actively worshipping, others, like myself, were simply, respectfully participating.

One can go to an Aikido school and mimic the motions out of respect, without moving into the category of worship.

But the larger issue, I think, is one that I believe Chris Parker is trying to raise. Or maybe I don't understand him. But I THINK he's suggesting that if you aren't worshipping and are just going through the motions, you aren't REALLY training in that art. I'm a guy who doesn't like the idea of bowing to O Sensei, and won't do it... is it impossible for me to learn aikido? Seems like Chris Parker is saying yes, I might train something, but it wouldn't be Aikido.

Or maybe I have it all wrong.

 

[drop bear]

I'm pretty sure this thread was someone asking about our organization not bowing. That being said we bow in class out of respect. Some pretty funny comments in the thread though.

Fair enough. How do you console that with Christianity?

Say if someone suggests it is the worship of a false idol. Or work on a sabbith or something.