United Martial Artists for Christ

[Buka]

I never considered bowing anything other than protocol, a protocol showing respect. (One that I like) Never considered it religious.

Pictured above - And they are..........?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think that is the problem; the mind of that student. If he was not told, or could not accept, that bowing to the instructor was a sign of respect like a handshake or salute, or to the dojo was a sign of respect to the art, he did right to say and believe what he did. The same with meditation.

I would wonder how he accepted the bowing that was common in Europe to royalty and nobility, or to certain religious hierarchy? Again, if he felt that was close to idolatry, he did right in saying so.

It wasn't just common there, but it was considered the etiquette of being a gentleman. Actors still bow after plays. I found this from a site that talk about Etiquette from the 1800's
"To turn to our every-day forms of salutation. We take off our hats on visiting an acquaintance. We bow on being introduced to strangers. " Source

Sometimes when I shake hands with a stranger I can see a small bow upon the hand shake.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I never considered bowing anything other than protocol, a protocol showing respect. (One that I like) Never considered it religious.

Pictured above - And they are..........?

Muslim moose bowing towards Mecca! We need to build a wall along the Canadian border to keep out untrustworthy ungulates! Not to worry, Donald Trump will make the Canadians pay for the whole thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Muslim moose bowing towards Mecca! We need to build a wall along the Canadian border to keep out untrustworthy ungulates! Not to worry, Donald Trump will make the Canadians pay for the whole thing.

Too late, there are already Moose in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and New York...not to mention a few in the Northwest too....darn lax moose immigration laws

 

[JowGaWolf]

Muslim moose bowing towards Mecca! We need to build a wall along the Canadian border to keep out untrustworthy ungulates! Not to worry, Donald Trump will make the Canadians pay for the whole thing.

pretty much. The U.S. can't stop U.S. citizens from killing each other in every day murder so maybe this plan will work.

 

[Buka]

Muslim moose bowing towards Mecca! We need to build a wall along the Canadian border to keep out untrustworthy ungulates! Not to worry, Donald Trump will make the Canadians pay for the whole thing.

They're Mooselims.

 

[Jenna]

Does anyone here have experience with this organization? If so, will you share? Thank you.
Karate, Martial Arts, Christian Karate - Christian Martial Arts - For Youth and Families

I read through this T, I wonder have you had your question answered? Jx

 

[Tames D]

I read through this T, I wonder have you had your question answered? Jx

Hi Jenna - No, not really I was hoping to hear from someone that had first hand knowledge of this particular org.
However, I like the direction the thread had taken. Some humor, and good opinions on spirituality. Great information. I'm currently trying to find myself spiritually, so some of this stuff is over my head, ha ha. But love reading it.

Jenna, I'm sending you a PM, so keep a look out for it.

 

[Buka]

As I've written before, had a Christian school that used to come down and sparr with us. Great bunch of folks, really good fighters. We never really spoke of religion. I got no problem with anything.

What I'm wondering about the particular school mentioned in the OP....say you lived near there and it was the only place realistically you could get to. If you weren't a Christian, would you mention it? Do they ask? Should they?

No reasons other than straight curiosity.

 

[Juany118]

Interesting in that we are in today, not WWII. So is there validity in condemning whose pilots? Or is that what you meant by not being a fan of those kind of arguments? As an aside, I understand the scrutiny given fire bombing (I understand those who question it, as I do those who knew it would shorten the war), but have no problem with use of the atomic bomb. Go figure, eh?

That is largely my point. It was acceptable at the time, heck not acceptable it was his wars were fought. To make moral or legal judgments of the people of a time decades, centuries or millennia later is inappropriate. The point of history, imo, is to look at these things in order to avoid the pitfalls based on contemporary rules, not to judge those who obeyed their rules.

To the Priest's point, he was saying one should somehow overcome sin. That is impossible for flawed humanity. What it is about is this. Often the things that cause pain is the guilt or direct offense of sinful actions. He believed that in meditating on our sins we accept that we are sinful rather than hide from it. In confronting, and accepting, our sinful nature we first relieve the pressures created by avoidance and finally it helps us to avoid making similar mistakes.

On Confucius the issue you note really comes out of its application after the Han Dynasty made it State Doctrine. One of the core precepts is submission to authority (our superiors) as the purpose of authority is to benefit those beneath you. It was then expanded upon by Neo-Confucian scholars. Now being a Philosopher Confucius didn't think of the potential application of this in the broadest sense (think Nietzsche in modern times) when those in power did not live up to the ideals that were also part, heck required, for the "rules" to function. This complication gets expanded when it comes to women because of the fact that China, especially after the advent of Neo-Confucianism became a VERY Patriarchal society.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna - No, not really I was hoping to hear from someone that had first hand knowledge of this particular org.
However, I like the direction the thread had taken. Some humor, and good opinions on spirituality. Great information. I'm currently trying to find myself spiritually, so some of this stuff is over my head, ha ha. But love reading it.

Jenna, I'm sending you a PM, so keep a look out for it.

If people tell you things over your head then they are not the best teacher for you Like in mastery of your MA, any movement to wards the true Divine is a path of steps. And perhaps there are people who concern their selves with the steps stretching in front and behind - like people who argue over lineages, or they watch all the other individuals on all of the other steps, and to do that is to avoid the question: I am on this step right here and right now for a reason, what is that reason? what am I to learn here on this step that moves me closer to the Divine? That is the only important thing to ask. It is trivial concern systems of beliefs and orthodoxies. These are intentional distractions that can and often do span ones entire existence here. I mail you directly, wishes, Jx

 

[oftheherd1]

That is largely my point. It was acceptable at the time, heck not acceptable it was his wars were fought. To make moral or legal judgments of the people of a time decades, centuries or millennia later is inappropriate. The point of history, imo, is to look at these things in order to avoid the pitfalls based on contemporary rules, not to judge those who obeyed their rules.

To the Priest's point, he was saying one should somehow overcome sin. That is impossible for flawed humanity. What it is about is this. Often the things that cause pain is the guilt or direct offense of sinful actions. He believed that in meditating on our sins we accept that we are sinful rather than hide from it. In confronting, and accepting, our sinful nature we first relieve the pressures created by avoidance and finally it helps us to avoid making similar mistakes.

On Confucius the issue you note really comes out of its application after the Han Dynasty made it State Doctrine. One of the core precepts is submission to authority (our superiors) as the purpose of authority is to benefit those beneath you. It was then expanded upon by Neo-Confucian scholars. Now being a Philosopher Confucius didn't think of the potential application of this in the broadest sense (think Nietzsche in modern times) when those in power did not live up to the ideals that were also part, heck required, for the "rules" to function. This complication gets expanded when it comes to women because of the fact that China, especially after the advent of Neo-Confucianism became a VERY Patriarchal society.

I sort of agree. However, even during WWII, there were protocols that were followed even if not codified in US law. But bombing cities, even fire bombing, was hoped to force the civilian populace to petition their government to stop the war. The problem for Germany was that the civilian populace had no idea that the bombing was taking place [/Snideness Off]. Actually, I don't know that even if the German populace realized the reason for the bombing of the cities, there was any part of the german dictatorship that was approachable or would have listened. And there was a problem in the US that people were starting to get tired of the war, its loss of Americans lives, and the privations of rationing. Anything that would bring the war to a quicker close was worth considering, especially for those countries that had suffered more than we did in the USA. Fire bombing cities wasn't a desire of the USA alone.

As to your priest friend, as I mentioned, I am not a catholic. But from my perspective, the Catholic Church has an incorrect view of how to overcome sin, placing too much emphasis on how to overcome sin by works, which in my belief, will do nothing to mitigate our sins. My belief is that our sins have been paid for by Jesus' shed blood on the cross. I or anyone else only need to claim it. Works do not produce salvation, and the Bible even tells us that. That is my belief, which I believe is from what the Bible tells us. Anyone is of course, free to disagree, and no one need believe it only because I say so.

In Korea, it was the Yi Dynasty that adopted Confucianism as the state religion. Other religions were disdained or actively put down. However, they were not eradicated, as there were always some people who did not wish to give up their former religions, even though they adopted many of Confucianism's principles. Even animism is still practiced by many of the Korean people, actively or as any situation seems to demand.

 

[Juany118]

I sort of agree. However, even during WWII, there were protocols that were followed even if not codified in US law. But bombing cities, even fire bombing, was hoped to force the civilian populace to petition their government to stop the war. The problem for Germany was that the civilian populace had no idea that the bombing was taking place [/Snideness Off]. Actually, I don't know that even if the German populace realized the reason for the bombing of the cities, there was any part of the german dictatorship that was approachable or would have listened. And there was a problem in the US that people were starting to get tired of the war, its loss of Americans lives, and the privations of rationing. Anything that would bring the war to a quicker close was worth considering, especially for those countries that had suffered more than we did in the USA. Fire bombing cities wasn't a desire of the USA alone.

As to your priest friend, as I mentioned, I am not a catholic. But from my perspective, the Catholic Church has an incorrect view of how to overcome sin, placing too much emphasis on how to overcome sin by works, which in my belief, will do nothing to mitigate our sins. My belief is that our sins have been paid for by Jesus' shed blood on the cross. I or anyone else only need to claim it. Works do not produce salvation, and the Bible even tells us that. That is my belief, which I believe is from what the Bible tells us. Anyone is of course, free to disagree, and no one need believe it only because I say so.

In Korea, it was the Yi Dynasty that adopted Confucianism as the state religion. Other religions were disdained or actively put down. However, they were not eradicated, as there were always some people who did not wish to give up their former religions, even though they adopted many of Confucianism's principles. Even animism is still practiced by many of the Korean people, actively or as any situation seems to demand.

Sorry I must be explaining it wrong. You can't overcome sin, you can only overcome the negative effects that avoidance has (psychological, kinda like going to therapy for trauma) and, hopefully learn from mistakes. The sin is not "absolved" via the meditation .

Oh and I know the last bit about Korea, the point I was trying to make was that a philosophy that was based on EVERYONE acting in the idealized fashion ran into cultural norms that were incompatible with it (corrupt beauracrats, the usual issues you get with Emperor's, patriarchy etc.)

 

[oftheherd1]

Sorry I must be explaining it wrong. You can't overcome sin, you can only overcome the negative effects that avoidance has (psychological, kinda like going to therapy for trauma) and, hopefully learn from mistakes. The sin is not "absolved" via the meditation .

Oh and I know the last bit about Korea, the point I was trying to make was that a philosophy that was based on EVERYONE acting in the idealized fashion ran into cultural norms that were incompatible with it (corrupt beauracrats, the usual issues you get with Emperor's, patriarchy etc.)

I think we were both sort of saying the same thing on sin, but looking at it from our own perspective. As to Korea, you are correct and that has happened in other counties as well. And as an aside, people's practice of a religion may be influenced by previous beliefs. From my experience, protestant religions in Korea tend to emphasize the Holy Spirit more than in the US. I have always believed that came from Animism. Not that Korean churches 'mix' the two religions, but rather that animism made the acceptance of a focus on the Holy Ghost easier. I have no proof of that, but it just seemed to make sense from my observations.

 

[WaterGal]

Apparently you can nod your head or something though and that is ok. Trained tkd with some Muslims at one point and the bow was a big issue.

Huh. I've trained with a few Muslims, too, and bowing was never an issue. What was an issue with one person was shaking hands with a training partner, because it could mean touching hands with members of the opposite sex.

The only person I've run into who refused to bow to the flag/teacher for religious reasons was, I think, a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Im thinking more of bowing to the picture of the founder, like the bowing to kano jigoro that they did at the judo club I went to. Bowing to each other would just be respect. I always thought of it as tradition and honoring the ancestor type thing, but could definitely see it appearing as idol worship.

Only if there's actual worship going on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never considered bowing anything other than protocol, a protocol showing respect. (One that I like) Never considered it religious.

Pictured above - And they are..........?

Clearly worshipping the asphalt.

 

[Flying Crane]

Clearly worshipping the asphalt.

Well it's a lot easier to get around than trudging through the snow clogged forest. Smart moose. They know a good thing when they see one.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Only if there's actual worship going on.

There can not be worship going on, but people still being uncomfortable because it feels too close to worship to them. Not saying I'm agreeing that it is, I can just understand the discomfort there.

 

[oftheherd1]

There can not be worship going on, but people still being uncomfortable because it feels too close to worship to them. Not saying I'm agreeing that it is, I can just understand the discomfort there.

I agree. I considered studying Aikido, but was worried about the bowing I saw on some TV documentaries, which I thought approached religious reverence. I probably should have actually visited some schools and watched, and asked questions. I might have found no reason to worry. Or confirmed my earlier observations from my religious viewpoint.