Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's the classic lead foot forward, strong leg back stance used in boxing and grappling. 子午馬 (or 前弓後箭馬)

In arts like Jow Ga, Hung Ga, the stance is practiced for strenght as an elongated static pose, or as a transition with level changes later on. In sparring, it's not done nearly as low, so you stay nice a loose and ready to pounce.

Once the legs are nice and strong, it becomes second nature. Most common defensive stances in MMA stances are Ji Ng Ma (most other common Kung Fu stances like 4 parallel Horse or Goat Riding Horse are not for fighting). The classic Muay Thai stance is a higher Ji Ng Ma/empty leg hybrid that usually favors forward facing hips, compared to the orthodox boxing stance, with the center of mass lower and hips somewhat the the side, compared to the Chinese Sanshou stances, which tend ever lower, but no so much as to lose mobility.

"Gong Gi Bo" means bow and arrow stance, "Ji Ng Ma" is a nod to "12 and 6" or "11 and 5 stance" as in 12/6, 11/5 on the sundial, where the front toe and back heel are generally aligned to produce a stable, rooted posture.

One moment, please...

Hung Ga Tiger version.

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Jow Ga version.

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Yogic version.

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Mantis version.

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Ok bow stance. Got it. My rooster staff stance is strong!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ok bow stance. Got it. My rooster staff stance is strong!

A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.

The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.

Lactic acid...oh my. I forget what that feels like from doing these so much.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Butcher Lam, ever helpful with examples.

Monkey Steals peach, the center line is between your elbow and the opponents elbow. Drunken Immortal fist...puts a whole new perspective on idea of "center line". Sweeps involve moving in both directions on a center line. And Deng Kiu, the rooting bridge...well when I learned that one, I started focusing more on the ground, one of the most impressive of the twelve southern bridges.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.

The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.

Lactic acid...oh my. I forget what that feels like from doing these so much.

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Tong Long Pai has that kneeling stance in one of the forms we have from there the Sam bo Jin

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Butcher Lam, ever helpful with examples.

Monkey Steals peach, the center line is between your elbow and the opponents elbow. Drunken Immortal fist...puts a whole new perspective on idea of "center line". Sweeps involve moving in both directions on a center line. And Deng Kiu, the rooting bridge...well when I learned that one, I started focusing more on the ground, one of the most impressive of the twelve southern bridges.

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Very nice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A novice has trouble sitting in this for a few seconds, somebody with a little training can do it for a few minutes.

The key is to build it up like this, so that at higher levels, it feels like nothing.

Lactic acid...oh my. I forget what that feels like from doing these so much.

View attachment 28231

Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!

Now that's just crazy talk. You can't love those things ha ha ha. Jow Ga students are known for their poor counting skills. By the time we hear "10" we would have already done 20 or more lol. I'm the same with my weight lifting. I'm supposed to do 3 rounds but some how between round 1 and round 2 I forget what round I'm on. So I do another just in case.lol

 

[Oily Dragon]

Thigh burners! I love it! Do it again, now faster!

Isometric exercises help to eliminate the burn of lactic acid.

 

[wckf92]

It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be.

There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.

 

[APL76]

Again, the spear only has 3 techniques. All the other techniques came from the staff technique.

Both WC system and spear fight are very similar. Both emphasizes on the straight-line attack. The spear has small circular moves used for defense, IMO, the WC system should have it too.

"The spear has small circular moves used for defense"

What makes you think wing chun doesn't have it?

 

[Oily Dragon]

There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.

To be honest I've never trained Wing Chun weapon forms specifically, but have all the major southern weapon forms (saber, staff, spear, blah blah), very similar.

I'll have to check out some videos, thanks. But always found it odd not to find it in the empty hand forms, and assumed it was supplemental training somewhere else, so maybe that explains it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is a stance very similar to this in some of the versions of WC pole form. So it is in the WC forms.

Since the WC pole form uses different stances than the open hand form, do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?

In theory, the weapon is the extension of the arm. The weapon technique should be similar to the open hand technique.

 

[wckf92]

do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?

I have heard it did. I have heard that parts of it were extracted from something called 5th Brother Pole (or something like that?)...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Since the WC pole form uses different stances than the open hand form, do you think the WC pole form may come from other CMA system?

In theory, the weapon is the extension of the arm. The weapon technique should be similar to the open hand technique.

Yes, because the staff forms are ancient going back to the Sung Dynasty about a thousand years ago, and were memorializes in many of the Southern styles. Wing Chun is a young art, but its staff form goes back to legendary folklore 900-1200ish AD.

So technically the CMA "system" is actually Yang family military staff training, because of the staffs importance for spear, gwan do, monks spade, and other long weapons.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I have heard it did. I have heard that parts of it were extracted from something called 5th Brother Pole (or something like that?)...

The Fifth Brother's Eight Trigram staff, also the key Five Family staff form. Probably the most famous staff form in all of China, thanks to Gordon Liu's depiction of the folk soldier.

Hung Ga Kyun’s "Eight Trigrams Long Pole" (Ng Long Baat Gwa Gwan) - Practical Hung Kyun

The 4 most famous sets with the “single-ended” long pole (Daan Tau Gwan) are “Six and Half Point Long Pole” (Luk Dim Bun Gwan), “The Flowing Water Long Pole” (Lau Seui Gwan), “Left-Handed Fisherman´s Long Pole (Jo Sau Diu Yu Gwan) and the “Ng Long’s Eight Trigrams Long Pole” (Ng Long Baat Gwa...

practicalhungkyun.com

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So technically the CMA "system" is actually military staff training, because of the staffs importance for spear, gwan do, monks spade, and other long weapons.

I believe the techniques that you hold at the end of the staff came from the spear technique. During the ancient time, spear was illegal weapon. So people took the spear head off and pretend it was just a staff.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I believe the techniques that you hold at the end of the staff came from the spear technique. During the ancient time, spear was illegal weapon. So people took the spear head off and pretend it was just a staff.

Well the age of the forms goes back to Yang Ye's army defending the Northern Han from Liao, so it was used by imperial soldiers. But yeah, the spear forms are practically identical, because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings and translates almost perfectly to adding a point in the end. I have seen waxwood staves that are actually sharpened to a point, rather than a steel tip. Just as deadly.

Compared to other, rarer forms in the south like the Traveler's, Monkey staff and other "eyebrow" short double ended staff forms.

This is the dude who's army created the form according to the source of its legend (the actual 5th brother probably existed, Yang Ye had six sons, but 5th son didn't pull the form out of thin air, it was likely developed collaboratively by weapon masters of the day).

Yang Ye - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Modern scholarly research holds up that practically all empty handed sets are relatively new (less than 500 years), but weapon forms are super old and go back to the BC era.

 

[wckf92]

Well the age of the forms goes back to Yang Ye's army defending the Northern Han from Liao, so it was used by imperial soldiers. But yeah, the spear forms are practically identical, because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings and translates almost perfectly to adding a point in the end. I have seen waxwood staves that are actually sharpened to a point, rather than a steel tip. Just as deadly.

Compared to other, rarer forms in the south like the Traveler's, Monkey staff and other "eyebrow" short double ended staff forms.

This is the dude who's army created the form according to the source of its legend (the actual 5th brother probably existed, but didn't pull the form out of thin air).

Yang Ye - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Modern scholarly research holds up that practically all empty handed sets are relatively new (less than 500 years), but weapon forms are super old and go back to the BC era.

When ya think about it...kinda of makes sense. Long weapon. Easily procured for masses of foot soldiers. And, the length of it would keep relatively "untrained" soldiers at a distance to their opponent where blades would come into play. And also I would imagine the long distances of the pole / spear would be used against horses too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

because 5B8T is specifically a single ended long staff form, lots of circling and poking, not a lot of big swings

There are big difference if we compare the

1. WC single end staff form - more poking. small circling, less big swings.
2. long fist double ends staff form - less poking, large circling, more big swings.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"The spear has small circular moves used for defense"

What makes you think wing chun doesn't have it?

It exists in the WC pole form. But does it exist in the WC open hand form?

Something like this - counter-clock half circle, clockwise half circle.

In open hand, it may look like this.