Understanding The Weapon

[MJS]

Included in the various arts, there are defenses against weapon attacks. Defenses against a gun, stick or knife are usually the ones that we see. Looking at some of the defenses, at least for myself, I often find myself picking apart the technique, and sometimes thinking that if this defense was actually attempted, the defender would most likely end up getting seriously hurt.

So, my question is this: How important do you feel it is, to really understand the weapon, before teaching its defense? IMHO, I've always been a big believer that its very important to understand the weapon. Now, the best way, I feel, would be to train in a weapon based art. After training for quite a few years in Arnis, I've come to better understand the blade and the stick.

For those that don't cross train, how do you address the weapon defenses that you teach? Do you feel that its possible to understand the weapon, without having to seek out other sources?

Mike

 

[HKphooey]

Good question Mike.

IMO...

I think it is very important to know the anatomy of any weapon you are teaching a defense against. Just like the "what if's" of a strike, there are many "what-if's" for the different types of weapons (and different styles within a weapon category). Ex. Defense against a short or long blade, single or double edged blade, revolver or 9MM, etc.

Without that understanding, i do not think one can adequately teach a solid defense against a specific weapon. Granted, we can go way too far dow the "what-if" road, but the basic variables should be covered.

 

[Grenadier]

Some understanding is required.

When someone properly trains with a particular weapon, he gets a feeling of how it becomes an extension of his own body. He then knows that muscles and joints are required to make it work. Grip, leverage, etc., are all part of this.

With this base level of knowledge in place, learning unarmed defenses against such weapons is no longer a forray into the unknown. At the very least, he can make an "educated" defense against such attacks, versus having to resort to defenses that may or may not have any chances of working.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Not important at all...it is essential. We defend against punches-kicks grabs and holds because we understand how they are used, when they are used, what they do, why they are used, etc. We should have the same knowledge of the weapons we defend against as well.

Examples: we know that a roundhouse losses power after the 180 degree mark. So we move to that part of the arc to prevent being damaged by the kick.

With a knife we need to know in what directions it can cut and where he leverage is coming from to make the cut....

With a gun we need to know what kind of firing mechanism is present so we can prevent an accidental discharge while attempting to defend against it....

With a stick we need to know that the sweet spot is just a little bit away from the very tip of the stick so this is the last part (if any) that we want to get struck by....

....and a whole slew of other things.

With out understanding we can't make intelligent decisions in life or anything else.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think its important to understand the properties of a weapon, if you plan to defend aganst it.

Like...

A knife is cutty and pokey. Often of limited reach, easily concealed. How does it cut? It requires a certain motion to cut... A few knives will cut badly from pressure alone, (with the exception of the point)most require the knife to be pulled or pushed so it will cut.

A stick/bat/club/staff is long and bashy. Hard, mostly inflexible, extends an attackers reach, but only by maybe up to 3-5 feet, does most of its damage from a swing, but can be used as a lever or to Jab... but most of its force is in the tip.

Understanding those sorts of properties and their relationship to human movement is important to a successful defense.

That Baseball bat is of limited use against me if I am 10 feet away, but thats where the gun has its advantage, and I dont want to be 10 feet from it...
​

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Understanding the weapon to be defended against is of vital importance.

I think we've all seen weapon defense taught where the instructor had no clue about how to utilize the weapon thus the "defense" against it was garbage.

I've seen this mostly with handguns, but also a large number of poor knife defensive techniques taught as well.

I remember one instructor in particular who had the idea that even modern revolvers had to have the hammer cocked before firing. Guess he hadn't heard of double action revolvers.

That being said, most instructors do seem more knowledgeable about weapons than they did twenty years ago.

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think its important to understand the properties of a weapon, if you plan to defend aganst it.​

Like...​

A knife is cutty and pokey. Often of limited reach, easily concealed. How does it cut? It requires a certain motion to cut... A few knives will cut badly from pressure alone, (with the exception of the point)most require the knife to be pulled or pushed so it will cut.​

A stick/bat/club/staff is long and bashy. Hard, mostly inflexible, extends an attackers reach, but only by maybe up to 3-5 feet, does most of its damage from a swing, but can be used as a lever or to Jab... but most of its force is in the tip.​

Understanding those sorts of properties and their relationship to human movement is important to a successful defense.​

That Baseball bat is of limited use against me if I am 10 feet away, but thats where the gun has its advantage, and I dont want to be 10 feet from it...​

My instructor uses a series of adjectives to describe the attitude of each weapon as well.
Sean

 

[Bigshadow]

Yes there are differences between weapons, but in their principles of use there are many similarities to unarmed combat. Take for instance a straight punch, a tsuki with a sword, and a bullet fired from a pistol. All three of these have differences, such as speed, shape, and range. However, they all move in a straight line (or close enough). So in dealing with these three, in principle they will be nearly the same. Of course tactics will change slightly because of their speed, shape, and range. Understanding their common principles is the foundation.

I agree that one needs to know something about how the weapon is really used and it's characteristics. But also knowing the principles of it's use is IMO most important to defending against it.

 

[Drac]

I think its important to understand the properties of a weapon, if you plan to defend aganst it.​

Like...​

A knife is cutty and pokey. Often of limited reach, easily concealed. How does it cut? It requires a certain motion to cut... A few knives will cut badly from pressure alone, (with the exception of the point)most require the knife to be pulled or pushed so it will cut.​

A stick/bat/club/staff is long and bashy. Hard, mostly inflexible, extends an attackers reach, but only by maybe up to 3-5 feet, does most of its damage from a swing, but can be used as a lever or to Jab... but most of its force is in the tip.​

Understanding those sorts of properties and their relationship to human movement is important to a successful defense.​

That Baseball bat is of limited use against me if I am 10 feet away, but thats where the gun has its advantage, and I dont want to be 10 feet from it...​

EXCELLENT descriptions...Yes I agree too you MUST understand what the weapon is capable of...

 

[searcher]

I don't have anything to add to what has already been said. I do agree that without some fundemental understanding you are at a great loss. To understand a thing, we must study a thing. It is the same as empty hand. If you don't study it how will you know how to use/defend against it.

 

[MJS]

Thanks for the great replies! I think that some tend to think that the 'standard' ways to attack, ie: Overhead stab and straight thrust, are the most common, therefore, thats what we see the majority of defenses in. However, there are many other methods of attack, that someone who is trained in a weapon based art, may use against us. Will we ever see all of those attacks? Probably not, but IMO, I'd rather be over prepared than under prepared.

Mike

 

[Don Roley]

Well, I learn weapons and I learn to deal with weapons. I think they both go hand in hand.

But I will toss this thread into confusion by pointing out that just because you know a way of using a particular weapon, does not mean that you will be able to deal with a different way of using the weapon.

This is kind of a debate going on in some of the knife groups. A lot of knife fighters deal with knife on knife sitations and what works in those situations works very very well. But the stuff you see in sources like the knife fighting being taught in prisons, it is quite different.

I would rather know how to use a knife and then have to face it than have no experience behind the blade. Of course, I don't want to face a knife at all. But if you get caught in the idea that everything you do will be what everyone else does you might be putting blinders on yourself. There is a saying that the best swordsman does not fear the second best swordsman the most, but the worst swordsman since he does not know what he will do. I think Robert Heinlein said that professionals are easy to predict, but there are all those blasted amatures out there.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I would definitely have to understand the weapon before you could defend against it. It'd be ludicrous for example to try and defend against a dual bladed knife with a block designed to stop the arm.