Understanding the firearm encounter.

[jetboatdeath]

Going a bit off topic here but alot of people do alot of work trying to fight the anti-gun people and it pisses me off to see topics start off with "A firearm is a tool for killing plain and simple. "

It is not that plain and simple, yes it is a tool that COULD be used for killing, but then again so is a hammer.

Trust me anti's check out forums like this all the time and use this stuff to their advantage.

Sorry for the break in the topic just thought I needed to state that....
Thanks.

 

[BLACK LION]

Going a bit off topic here but alot of people do alot of work trying to fight the anti-gun people and it pisses me off to see topics start off with "A firearm is a tool for killing plain and simple. "

It is not that plain and simple, yes it is a tool that COULD be used for killing, but then again so is a hammer.

Trust me anti's check out forums like this all the time and use this stuff to their advantage.

Sorry for the break in the topic just thought I needed to state that....
Thanks.

Firearms were designed with one thing in mind... killing...you cant build a home with one or plant trees or fix a gcar of anything of the such... they were created to cause injury or great harm from a distance without any certain skill or physical prowess.... put a gun in a mans handds with no physical abilities or anything and they can kill just the same...

hammers have many other uses and were not designed with only one...


and your sig says "crime is my desert"...





to each his own

 

[jetboatdeath]

Black Lion i understand what you are saying but that is not what every firearm is designed for. I have a single shot .22 short can you tell me that a .22 short was made to kill?

 

[thardey]

Black Lion i understand what you are saying but that is not what every firearm is designed for. I have a single shot .22 short can you tell me that a .22 short was made to kill?

I know this is probably not the direction you indended to go, but a firearm isn't good for much more that violently putting holes in things.

I've never, when the battery on my drill died, considered using a gun to replace the drill.

Yes, they both holes in things, but guns are specifically designed to do it violently. Larger calibers are for killing larger things, smaller calibers are for either killing smaller things, or to simulate through practice the killing of things, even if those things are pieces of paper or tin cans.

Target shooting is a game of skill, and doesn't require the desire to cause death, pain, or physical harm, but at the root of it, the guns used for it are copies of guns designed to kill. The game imitates life.

It's like sparring: you can certainly spar for sporting's sake, but you have to admit that the design of sparring was for training in situations where you would be trying to protect yourself.

Same thing: firearms were designed for killing. If you modify and use them for different purposes, the original design is still the same.

Swords and Bows are in the same boat, they're designed to kill.

Knifes are starting to cross over -- they are designed to cut meat and flesh and vegetable, but for most uses that is limited to preparing food. They are also useful for cutting the "meat" of an attacker.

This is why debates about firearm rights are more hotly contested than the right drive cars, which are much more dangerous. Cars were designed to transport us, with a side effect of being dangerous. Guns were designed to kill animals, (two, or four legged ones) with the side effect of being a downright fun sport! (Target shooting, I mean.)

 

[zDom]

they were created to cause injury or great harm from a distance without any certain skill or physical prowess....

I would beg to differ. They take some skill and the required skill increases with distance.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Blah Blah Blah. Fantasy Warrior nonsense from someone who mishmashes his training, and won't ID talking out his *** at those who will. WhoppidyDoDo-do. I read lots of talk, but where's the video's BL? Where's the creds to back it all up? Ex Military? last unit & duty station. I like to know if I'm mistasking someone with a clue, or a tired wannabe desk jockey who's swallowed too much fake SF crap from the back of crapbelt rag.

 

[BLACK LION]

Blah Blah Blah. Fantasy Warrior nonsense from someone who mishmashes his training, and won't ID talking out his *** at those who will. WhoppidyDoDo-do. I read lots of talk, but where's the video's BL? Where's the creds to back it all up? Ex Military? last unit & duty station. I like to know if I'm mistasking someone with a clue, or a tired wannabe desk jockey who's swallowed too much fake SF crap from the back of crapbelt rag.

I appreciate your candid disrespect my good man.
And you feel so entitled becuase??? It took a comp and a keyboard for you to type post after post and gain those adornments on your profile so whos jockeying a desk???
Call it what you will. Call me what you want. It changes nothing nor does it favor your position. Talking s--- becuase you disagree with typing says nothing of your character.Likewise, me obliging your frothing at the mouth says nothing of mine.
It seems your issues are elsewhere and not with me.

I find these posts amusing becuase a little training and one can clearly see where the focus should be when facing an armed threat. I dont care to spoon feed anyone.... consider it as an option or dont... you dont pay my bills or feed and protect my family so ultimately what does all the slack jawed gabber amount to... zero.
Thank you for another great post that was so full of relative info to the topic.... maybe next time you can post contrary knowledge and experience or something regarding the topic.

I cordially welcome you to train here in San Diego on any of the days we are out there. You can make your determination in the flesh.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Adornments? What adornments? You keep mentioning those, and I have no idea what kinda a weed you might be smoking to see them. Oh, wait.
You mean

? That costs me $10 a month, lets the bald guy running the joint pay the server rent.
You mean

? I got that one because I know what button to push.

Learn the software and contribute to the cause little man. You too can have shiney badges, unless you don't need no stinking badges, just like you don't need to show any actual credentials to post your dangerous and vacuous processed cow feed. Stop in and train with you? Right. Tell me who you are, and why you matter and I might care mate. Because the anonymous "Special Forces Wanker WannaBe" pap you toss around here looks like any article that slips through the non existant quality control at the martial art soap rags.

As to me posting content, I've seen little from you to merit an exchange. I prefer to do so with equals, not pretenders and liars and wannabes. So, which one are you again? Never mind. It's obvious. Oh look, I trod in a Black Lion, got to find a stick and scrape it off. Tally Ho.

Now to go see if someone has stopped grinning inanely or if they got butt hurt again.

Oh yeah, Ride that Nut GracieFan! Whee!

 

[MJS]

I apologize in advance for not being able to focus on every one of your points so let me just generalize my point here and hope it suffices...

I am not advocating complete ignorance of the tool or firearm in this case... there are some instances in which deflecting or capturing or controlling or stripping or disarming the gun is in order but not without Injuring them as the focus and the goal... If you just jump and grab the gun the threat could easily just pull by sitting or laying down and you get dumped into... focus on disarming the gun and not injuring the operator is a bad recipe. It may require some sort of fein or feint or kansas city shuffle or whatever... the focus and goal should be injury... how you get there is not the concern... its getting the injury first that changes the odds in your favor... if someone puts a gun to my head and asks for something he missed his chance to kill me... what I do at that moment to get to the injury is up to that time and place... what I dont want to focus on is which way can I wrestle the gun away from him while forsaking myself the luxury of injuries... if he puts a gun to my head the last thing I want to do is grab the gun and dance over it without injuring him...

Injuries give you everything... wether its a break or a dump or a throw or a disarm or what have you... you have to break down the man behind the tool and not the tool behind the man...

I am not against de-tooling the threat or controlling the tool becuase there are times that warrant it like attacks from behind but there are times that dont... injuries must be primary focus and the priority becuase that is what will give me true control... I cant just jump up and grap the gun hoping hell let me turn it against his finger joint and break his finger while stripping it away to shoot him with it... try that with a 105lb female against a 250 lb man... who do you think will have true control... while she is working to crank the gun away he is free to backhand her into next teusday... now if she were to shove a thumb through his eyeball while grabbing a fistfull of jewels and twisting... her odds of controling or disarming just increased favorably...

Some good FOF with airsoft clears up many misconceptions

Well, hopefully we can get back to some good debate. As for this post....IMO, the control of the weapon while at the same time striking the BG, would be the best option. Initially, I'm not looking for a disarm of the weapon, but again, a simultaneous control and counter strikes.

Granted, the gun is only going to harm us when its pointed at us, however, I don't want the BG to dictate where its pointed, I want to.

As for where to strike....the options are unlimited. Punches to the face, strikes to the eyes, the nose, the throat, the groin, whatever.

 

[BLACK LION]

Adornments? What adornments? You keep mentioning those, and I have no idea what kinda a weed you might be smoking to see them. Oh, wait.
You mean

? That costs me $10 a month, lets the bald guy running the joint pay the server rent.
You mean

? I got that one because I know what button to push.

Learn the software and contribute to the cause little man. You too can have shiney badges, unless you don't need no stinking badges, just like you don't need to show any actual credentials to post your dangerous and vacuous processed cow feed. Stop in and train with you? Right. Tell me who you are, and why you matter and I might care mate. Because the anonymous "Special Forces Wanker WannaBe" pap you toss around here looks like any article that slips through the non existant quality control at the martial art soap rags.

As to me posting content, I've seen little from you to merit an exchange. I prefer to do so with equals, not pretenders and liars and wannabes. So, which one are you again? Never mind. It's obvious. Oh look, I trod in a Black Lion, got to find a stick and scrape it off. Tally Ho.

Now to go see if someone has stopped grinning inanely or if they got butt hurt again.

Oh yeah, Ride that Nut GracieFan! Whee!

That sure was a mouthful wasnt it... dont sacrifice your blood pressure for this wannabe...
What credit do I need with a bumbling windbag especially if I am one if not all of the things you stated above.

All this superiority and expertise you exude is oozing from my monitor...
if it were only air between us you my friend would not have disrespect and dcontempt as an option. I dont know...maybe where you are from thats how people talk to each other... not here....

I wish you the best in all your exchanges with those who are worthy to exchange with you.

I will now politely use the ignore feature for the first time ever as a means of damage control becuase I could easily get myself banned right here and now.

Tootles big man....

 

[lklawson]

I find these posts amusing becuase a little training and one can clearly see where the focus should be when facing an armed threat.

Sorry, but this doesn't seem to be true at all. Many of the people taking exception with your strategy have more than "a little training" and yet disagree with you on certain fundamentals of your strategy here.

Further, it seems that your specific strategy for dealing with a firearms encounter mirrors your specific strategy for dealing with a knife encounter as you already elucidated in a nearly identical thread on the knife sub-forum which you titled "Understanding the knife encounter." There again, many people with more than "a little training" disagreed with key elements of your specific strategy.

QED, the statement "a little training and one can clearly see where the focus should be when facing an armed threat" is false.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Oh yeah, Ride that Nut GracieFan! Whee!

Huh? Never once in either this thread or his similar knife thread has he advocated Gracie grappling, BJJ/GJJ, or implied any such method. His stated strategy in both cases has been, essentially, close past the weapon then ignore it in favor of doing as much "damage" as possible.

I'm not sure where you are seeing Gracie promotion, or is this a reference to some other argument you had with someone else?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[The Last Legionary]

It's a reference to one of the other threads where mr. make believe here touted his unverifiable, uncredible and dangerous expertise. Seems whenever one asks him his credentials he clams up, changes the subject, or tries to twist it as an attack. Hence he seems just another internet "expert" who got his ideas from whoever bought themselves some ad space, err, I mean "article" space in one of the martial arts soap rags. But as I don't want to cross the fraud busting line here, I'll shut up.

 

[sgtmac_46]

SGT... I know in my heart you can break a mans neck with your bare hands... I know you can break a knee or spine or trachea with a well ececuted stomp... I know you can send a rib into the liver with a well executed elbow.... the list goes on... with the right principles in place its easier to injure a threat in the field than it is to not injure your partner in training.... its the mental focus and the work to get in there torso to torso thats not so easy.

I box.......and when I throw a punch at a guys head (and i'm a powerful guy) I punch THROUGH the target......and though i've knocked folks unconscious on occasion.......most of the time I don't knock people out with one or several punches, and i've never broken anyone's neck.

While those things CAN happen, the idea that they are going to happen while i'm struggling to keep his gun from coming in line with my soft pink body sounds more like imaginative theory than practical tactics.......again, if someone can point to REAL WORLD examples where this has happened, i'm willing to listen.......but it's only likely you're going to crush your opponents trachea if you have a very great physical advantage over him.....NOT if he's (as is likely) bigger and stronger.

 

[sgtmac_46]

here is one of the specifics we disagree on:

You can't count on it being "either/or" — chances are both are happening: You are (if doing things right) causing injury but are also very likely to be receiving injuries simulataneously.

Trading injuries you do with empty hands for injuries done to you with a weapon is not a good trade!

How you be sure you are giving while not receiving injuries? You can't. All you can do is increase your odds and mitigate the injuries you receive through diligent training of worthwhile techniques.

If you or anyone out there is so good that they can always overwhelm any attacker with determination and skill, they should definitely take up professional fighting — i'd love to see it. I would tune in regularly to watch mr. Or mrs. Undefeatable defy all the odds on a regular basis.

exactly!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I apologize in advance for not being able to focus on every one of your points so let me just generalize my point here and hope it suffices...

I am not advocating complete ignorance of the tool or firearm in this case... there are some instances in which deflecting or capturing or controlling or stripping or disarming the gun is in order but not without Injuring them as the focus and the goal... If you just jump and grab the gun the threat could easily just pull by sitting or laying down and you get dumped into... focus on disarming the gun and not injuring the operator is a bad recipe. It may require some sort of fein or feint or kansas city shuffle or whatever... the focus and goal should be injury... how you get there is not the concern... its getting the injury first that changes the odds in your favor... if someone puts a gun to my head and asks for something he missed his chance to kill me... what I do at that moment to get to the injury is up to that time and place... what I dont want to focus on is which way can I wrestle the gun away from him while forsaking myself the luxury of injuries... if he puts a gun to my head the last thing I want to do is grab the gun and dance over it without injuring him...

Injuries give you everything... wether its a break or a dump or a throw or a disarm or what have you... you have to break down the man behind the tool and not the tool behind the man...

I am not against de-tooling the threat or controlling the tool becuase there are times that warrant it like attacks from behind but there are times that dont... injuries must be primary focus and the priority becuase that is what will give me true control... I cant just jump up and grap the gun hoping hell let me turn it against his finger joint and break his finger while stripping it away to shoot him with it... try that with a 105lb female against a 250 lb man... who do you think will have true control... while she is working to crank the gun away he is free to backhand her into next teusday... now if she were to shove a thumb through his eyeball while grabbing a fistfull of jewels and twisting... her odds of controling or disarming just increased favorably...

Some good FOF with airsoft clears up many misconceptions

All those things are great.......BUT, if I have two hands on my gun, and you grab my jewels.......i'm going to be pain and you're going to dead! It's not an equitable trade........I can take a testicle twist for the period of time it takes to get my barrel back in line.


Here's the problem....it's a problem of objectives......mine is simpler. You're objective is to cause me enough damage to make me unable to fight........my objective is simple to get the barrel of my gun back in line with your body and then pull the trigger until it stops booming. Simpler objective will win out.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Firearms were designed with one thing in mind... killing...you cant build a home with one or plant trees or fix a gcar of anything of the such... they were created to cause injury or great harm from a distance without any certain skill or physical prowess.... put a gun in a mans handds with no physical abilities or anything and they can kill just the same...

hammers have many other uses and were not designed with only one...


and your sig says "crime is my desert"...





to each his own

Guns are inanimate objects.......without a human mind it's weird shaped rock.....that's the point he's trying to make. The designers intention is irrelevant once it leaves his hand.

To illustrate how the design of a thing is irrelevant to it's use, let me remind you that 9/11 was perpetrated with box-cutters and jet airlines, neither of which were designed to commit mass-murder. Likewise a Ryder truck, diesel fuel and fertilizer aren't designed for mass-murder, but they were better suited for it than any gun.

All 'weapons' are merely tools.......the only real weapon is the human mind.