Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[shesulsa]

I have to wonder, with all the defending of Zimmerman's actions, why the hell we as martial artists even worry about self-defense law at all.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have to wonder, with all the defending of Zimmerman's actions, why the hell we as martial artists even worry about self-defense law at all.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

I do not understand what you're saying.

 

[Wo Fat]

Just for the record, I don't know what a race denier is.

And I've never defended Zimmerman.

And I don't know what his actions were, other than those that are not disputed. If they were what he said they were, then I defend his actions as I would anyone in the same situation. If not, then no. But I don't know if he's lying or not. Neither do you.

In any case, I've never said Zimmerman was innocent. I said that it would be very difficult for the state to prove a criminal case. Being found "Not Guilty" is not the same thing as "Innocent." Not being prosecuted for lack of evidence also does not mean "Innocent." Nor does it mean "Guilty." It means what it says.

Race deniers isn't necessarily a coined phrase, and it doesn't necessarily apply to you per se. Rather a consistent percentage of people who deny the existence of race so that they don't have to acknowledge the potential innocence of those affected by it. For the record, I don't know that George Zimmerman is a racial bigot. I only know that he said something racially bigoted. A lot of otherwise ordinary and decent people fall into that category.

I said what I said because Zimmerman's current actions appear consistent with prior behavior (excessive 911 calls often for minor and trivial reasons, an arrest for resistance (predicated on who-knows-what), pursuing Trayvon Martin when asked not to do so, etc.)

The reason that so many presume that a criminal case would not yield a guilty verdict is because of the evidence that should exist, but conveniently doesn't--thanks to the Sanford PD. Had this notorious life-or-death struggle actually happened the way Zimmerman claimed, there should be evidence of it. Think photographs; EMT notes; medical records. But all we have are inconsistent police reports prepared 17 hours after police arrived on scene. Now, if the Sanford PD had evidence to support (a) Zimmerman's claim of life-or-death injuries; and (b) the reports themselves, then a reasonable person would expect that they would have made such evidence public long, long ago. They didn't; they won't; they can't. And all of the glaring and gaping holes in their work are about to be exposed.

And based upon his lawyers withdrawing, and phone calls to the Prosecutor and to Sean Hannity of all people, no one is more desperately aware that reality is closing in ... than George Zimmerman.

 

[ballen0351]

FYI, a citizen can do the same thing. A security guard's detention is essentially citizen's arrest in that he has the same authority as any citizen; no more, no less.

Interesting little factoid North Carolina is the only state that does not allow citizen arrests.
United States

All states other than North Carolina permit citizen arrests if a felony crime is witnessed by the citizen carrying out the arrest, or when a citizen is asked to help apprehend a suspect by the police. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanor crimes, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. Note particularly that American citizens do not have the authoritie or the legal protections of the police, and are strictly liable before both the civil law and criminal law for any violation of the rights of another.[6] In the United States, the police do not have to determine the legality of the citizens arrest and this practice has been greatly criticized

Oh and for you Mass folks:
Massachusetts law, which while permitting a private person to arrest for a felony, permits those acquitted of the felony charge to sue the arresting person for false arrest or false imprisonment. (See Commonwealth v. Harris, 11 Mass. App. 165 (1981))

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Race deniers isn't necessarily a coined phrase, and it doesn't necessarily apply to you per se. Rather a consistent percentage of people who deny the existence of race so that they don't have to acknowledge the potential innocence of those affected by it. For the record, I don't know that George Zimmerman is a racial bigot. I only know that he said something racially bigoted. A lot of otherwise ordinary and decent people fall into that category.

Actually, it appears that is not the case. What you 'know' may not be factual.

I said what I said because Zimmerman's current actions appear consistent with prior behavior (excessive 911 calls often for minor and trivial reasons, an arrest for resistance (predicated on who-knows-what), pursuing Trayvon Martin when asked not to do so, etc.)

You're spinning it the way you want to spin it, of course. Excessive 911 calls? How many are excessive for the neighborhood watch guy in a neighborhood that has had numerous recent burglaries?

Previous arrest for resistance; charges dropped. Why? I think it's hard to draw conclusions unless you know the facts. For what it's worth, as a former LE, I can tell you that 'resisting' is a common add-on for people who do as little as argue when being arrested for an FTA warrant, etc. It can be something or nothing. When it's nothing, it's not unusual for it to be dropped later.

And again, he wasn't asked not to pursue Martin. And even if he was asked not to, he doesn't have to. Race as the reason he'd disobey the dispatcher's request? I don't see how you make that leap.

The reason that so many presume that a criminal case would not yield a guilty verdict is because of the evidence that should exist, but conveniently doesn't--thanks to the Sanford PD.

Wow. You really have it bad for Zimmerman, don't you?

Had this notorious life-or-death struggle actually happened the way Zimmerman claimed, there should be evidence of it. Think photographs; EMT notes; medical records.

How do you know that doesn't exist? The police have stated they have not released all their information to the public, but to the prosecutor. This would be consistent with a criminal investigation. We don't know what we don't know.

But all we have are inconsistent police reports prepared 17 hours after police arrived on scene. Now, if the Sanford PD had evidence to support (a) Zimmerman's claim of life-or-death injuries; and (b) the reports themselves, then a reasonable person would expect that they would have made such evidence public long, long ago. They didn't; they won't; they can't. And all of the glaring and gaping holes in their work are about to be exposed.

Agenda. I don't even know how to respond to such a clearly unbalanced statement. There's not a fact in it that I can discern.

And based upon his lawyers withdrawing, and phone calls to the Prosecutor and to Sean Hannity of all people, no one is more desperately aware that reality is closing in ... than George Zimmerman.

The attorneys stated they were withdrawing because Zimmerman refused to meet with them and failed to take their advice, as well as having called the DA without their knowledge or representation. I don't blame them for withdrawing. As to his bizarre behavior; again, not sure where you're getting 'race' out of that.

I think you see what you want to see. You've ignored repeated corrections to your incorrect assertions, I can only assume because it doesn't fit your worldview. If you want to believe Zimmerman is a racist, fine with me. He might be; I only say there is no evidence for that; there even appears to be character witness statements that he's the opposite of a racist.

For you, this appears to be about race and nothing else. I'm sorry for you, I really am. Even if Zimmerman's actions were predicated on race hatred, there's no way to know that, and precious little real basis to even suspect it. I don't know how we can continue to have a rational discussion about this.

 

[jks9199]

So if they resist do you charge the shopplifter with resisting arrest? Do they have any training to detain people? Sounds like a bad time waiting to happen having seen the caliber of some loss prevention employees Ive delt with.

Most retailers have policies that limit the use of force to achieve a detention, mostly due to liability. They give very little training, for the most part, whether it's a store detective or a licensed security guard. They're essentially making a citizen's arrest, and the codes on resisting arrest in Virginia specify a "law enforcement officer."

Regarding Neighborhood Watch... In my area, most PDs don't maintain a list of members. Set up the Watch, register it with the PD, and document enough patrols, and we'll post the sign. Stop doing the patrols, and the signs come down. (If anyone's paying attention. We've got a road to nowhere with a Neighborhood Watch... I guess it's made up of squirrels.) So, generally, the PD couldn't tell you who is or isn't a member.

With regard to this whole incident... Who knows, at this point? I suspect that there'll be charges made soon; whether it'll be manslaughter, murder, or something else, I couldn't say or guess. Meanwhile, various groups pushing their own agendas without regard to the facts (One might have thought that President Obama would have learned his lesson about jumping in on things before he knows what's up... I don't think a sit down over beer will be enough this time.) have turned the area into a powder keg. I won't be at all surprised to see incidents and riots and worse springing up there soon.

 

[ballen0351]

Race deniers isn't necessarily a coined phrase, and it doesn't necessarily apply to you per se. Rather a consistent percentage of people who deny the existence of race so that they don't have to acknowledge the potential innocence of those affected by it. For the record, I don't know that George Zimmerman is a racial bigot. I only know that he said something racially bigoted. A lot of otherwise ordinary and decent people fall into that category.

So its the opposite of a Race baiter that make up racial problems where there are none.

I said what I said because Zimmerman's current actions appear consistent with prior behavior (excessive 911 calls often for minor and trivial reasons,

So do 1000's of old ladies and other neighborhood watch people looking out their windows everyday

an arrest for resistance (predicated on who-knows-what)

,
Correct we have no idea the situation behind that arrest. I arrested a guy for throwing a bottle at the Westboro baptist church peopel that were protesting his 2 nephews funerial. I didnt want to and I hated it but it was my job and I had to and he has an assault charge on his record.

pursuing Trayvon Martin when asked not to do so, etc.)

Was he? or was he walking back to his truck like he says? Do you know?

The reason that so many presume that a criminal case would not yield a guilty verdict is because of the evidence that should exist, but conveniently doesn't--thanks to the Sanford PD.

Proof? You have none other then what the news has told you which so far has not been very accurate to say the least.

Had this notorious life-or-death struggle actually happened the way Zimmerman claimed, there should be evidence of it. Think photographs; EMT notes; medical records.

So every struggle needs to show evidence? I knocked myself out cold running around a house and ran into a window A/C unit quite embarrassing and am still getting joked about it at work even when it happened over 7 years ago but I had no marks other then a little bit of redness on my forehead. But there I was out cold laying on the ground.

But all we have are inconsistent police reports prepared 17 hours after police arrived on scene.

Why does that matter. Im sure the officer was on scene for a LONG time and then wrote the report the next day it happens all the time. The facts dont change just because I wait until the next day to write a report.

Now, if the Sanford PD had evidence to support (a) Zimmerman's claim of life-or-death injuries; and (b) the reports themselves, then a reasonable person would expect that they would have made such evidence public long, long ago.

Why would they release information on a current and active case? Why would they release information if nobody was charged with a crime?

They didn't; they won't; they can't. And all of the glaring and gaping holes in their work are about to be exposed.

How do you know? have you seen the case file? Have you read the reports? Have you seen the evidence? OR are you just going off what NBC told you?

And based upon his lawyers withdrawing, and phone calls to the Prosecutor and to Sean Hannity of all people, no one is more desperately aware that reality is closing in ... than George Zimmerman.

It may be and once the FACTS are known if he needs to be charged then he will. If he did anything wrong then he should spend a long time in jail. BUT we dont have any facts yet they only person that does is the special prosecutor and in the next few days we will find out what charges she thinks fit or if any at all.

 

[jks9199]

FYI, a citizen can do the same thing. A security guard's detention is essentially citizen's arrest in that he has the same authority as any citizen; no more, no less.

Citizen's arrest laws vary greatly state to state, and I would generally discourage trying to rely on them unless you know what you're doing. For example, in Virginia, citizen's arrest is limited to felonies and misdemeanor breach of the peace.

 

[ballen0351]

Citizen's arrest laws vary greatly state to state, and I would generally discourage trying to rely on them unless you know what you're doing. For example, in Virginia, citizen's arrest is limited to felonies and misdemeanor breach of the peace.

Same in Maryland

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Citizen's arrest laws vary greatly state to state, and I would generally discourage trying to rely on them unless you know what you're doing. For example, in Virginia, citizen's arrest is limited to felonies and misdemeanor breach of the peace.

Agreed. My point was that the average citizen has the same powers (or lack of same) as a private security guard, neighborhood watch member, or Guardian Angel, etc. And in practical terms, when a citizen runs down and tackles a purse-snatcher, no one but the purse-snatcher claims he exceeded his authority because he's not a cop. I agree with other statements made in this thread that civilians are not shielded from lawsuit, nor protected by insurance in most cases where they take the law into their own hands. Good Samaritans proceed at their own risk.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

More craziness...

http://wtvr.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-make-announcement-soon-in-trayvon-martin-case/

Legal experts called the public resignation of Zimmerman’s attorneys stunning.

“Oh, my God. This is just a train wreck of proportions I don’t even know where to begin,” said Mark Geragos, a prominent defense attorney “Who are you to be diagnosing your client’s mental state when you haven’t talked to him? This is inexplicable. I felt like I was watching a ‘Saturday Night Live’ skit. I don’t like to second-guess other lawyers in the eye of the storm. But this is frankly one of the most outrageous things I’ve witnessed.”

Jose Baez, a defense attorney in the high-profile Casey Anthony case, agreed and said Zimmerman’s attorneys could have violated attorney-client privilege provisions.

“It’s unbelievable you’d get on television and talk about your client’s mental state,” said Baez. “The things you learn in the process of representing the client is confidential. Any conversation they had or nonconversations they had with George Zimmerman are completely protected. And the holder of this privilege is George Zimmerman, not the attorneys.”

Sunny Hostin, a former prosecutor and a CNN legal analyst, said Zimmerman’s lawyers’ statements could hurt his case.

“I’ve never seen anything like this,” said Hostin. “As a prosecutor you’re looking at a case, and now I’m worried. Is George Zimmerman a flight risk? Can I get to him if I have to issue an arrest warrant? Maybe now I’m going to bring charges a little more quickly. And so this really harms George Zimmerman in the eyes of a prosecutor.”

 

[MJS]

Engaged how? because he was following a strange person in his neighborhood? Happens 1000's of times a day all over the country. At least he takes pride in his neighborhood and wants to keep it safe.

Engaged how? He put himself into a situation he didn't have to be put in. For example...I could be driving down the road, on my way home, and see 2 people physically fighting on the side of the road. I have options: 1) I could turn a blind eye, mind my own business and keep on driving. I dont know them, so really, if they wanna kill each other, go right ahead. 2) I could call the police and report what is happening. I could give a play by play to the dispatcher. 3) I could pull over, jump out of my vehicle and try to break up the fight.

Option 1 is obviously the no brainer. Its the safe bet. #2 and #3 I'm involving myself, obviously more in one than the other. So thats what I mean. He (Zimmerman) saw something and felt the need to act on it.


[quote I'm wondering too, what Martin was doing that was suspicious? Has the ever been determined? [/quote]

Strange person in the neighborhood. Suspicious to you or I not so much but to others yes. I live in a rual area and know most of the people from here. If I see someone that does not look familiar Id take notice. we have a bunch of day time burglaries here right now and I am home during the day so I may even follow and call in on someone around here if I dont know them.

When I was working at night, I was probably one of a handful of people in my condo complex that was home during the day. Out quite often with my dog, I'd see alot of 'strange' vehicles, yet I didn't follow them or call the cops.

Family I believe lived in the area if I remember.

So I wonder...if Martin had family in the area, was that night the first time he went to visit? I mean really, come on now.

Well according to the witness that saw it and Zimmerman's story he was. BUT thats just what the news has reported so far and we know how great the reporting has been so far on this case.

Again, as I asked before...did the witness see the entire thing or parts of it? As I said, its like coming in at the 1hr mark of a 2hr movie. You can't know exactly what happened. How about all the clowns that use their cell phone cams to tape incidents with the police? Odd how you only get PART of the story, usually the part where the cop is made to look like the bad guy. Funny how the part where the suspect is acting like an *******, somehow never appears on the cam. Hmmm.....

Sure do they are pretty easy to spot

Exactly, vs. someone wearing average clothing.

So every time you walk down the street and someone is behind you in every day clothes walking the same way you feel like your going to get mugged?

Dont put words in my mouth! You know damn well what I'm saying! What time of day did this incident happen? If you were walking alone, and suddenly you saw someone coming up behind you, you're telling me you wouldn't be more alert? No, I dont think that I'm going to be mugged. I'm not a hermit..lol. However, I dont have my head up my *** either, like some other people I see walking around.

Actually Id rather have a bunch of neighbors that actually care about their own neighborhoods then the GA who are a bunch of Wanna Be Cops. They do alot more then report and observe from their own website they claim during the past 33 years and The Guardian Angels were in the trenches, not as mere witnesses, but active modifiers of history.

A neighbor that sees something out of the ordinary, is a good witness, sees the incident from start to finish...sure. A neighbor thats going to be like a Zimmerman...no thanks. I do wonder though....lets replace Zimmerman with 3 GAs who're on patrol. I wonder...would the outcome be different?

I agree with that its a no win situation. I blame the Media for all lies they have put out as facts. ALL the Fancy editing to make better stories like "He's suspicious and black" instead of the truth with the dispatcher asking him what race the person was and Zimmerman answering him, the suggestive messages like "coons" instead of "cold". Playing clips of a "witness" that didnt "witness" anything but sure found time to talk about it to the news.

At this point I have no idea whos telling the truth and prob never will.

And this I agree with!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So I wonder...if Martin had family in the area, was that night the first time he went to visit? I mean really, come on now.

Have you actually been reading anything about the case at all? It seems like you're not up on the details. He lived elsewhere, was suspended from school, and during his suspension, his mom sent him to live with his dad. So apparently, he was a newcomer to the neighborhood, although his father had lived there.

Again, as I asked before...did the witness see the entire thing or parts of it? As I said, its like coming in at the 1hr mark of a 2hr movie. You can't know exactly what happened. How about all the clowns that use their cell phone cams to tape incidents with the police? Odd how you only get PART of the story, usually the part where the cop is made to look like the bad guy. Funny how the part where the suspect is acting like an *******, somehow never appears on the cam. Hmmm.....

The police and prosecuting attorneys can only act one what they can prove. If they can't prove that Martin didn't start the fight, then it doesn't much matter in terms of criminal charges. I honestly don't even see the dots you appear to be wanting to connect.

 

[MJS]

Have you actually been reading anything about the case at all? It seems like you're not up on the details. He lived elsewhere, was suspended from school, and during his suspension, his mom sent him to live with his dad. So apparently, he was a newcomer to the neighborhood, although his father had lived there.

Probably havent been reading up on it as much as I should I suppose. Then again, with new stories popping up every minute, you need a break now and then..lol. Anyways, thanks for the clarification.

The police and prosecuting attorneys can only act one what they can prove. If they can't prove that Martin didn't start the fight, then it doesn't much matter in terms of criminal charges. I honestly don't even see the dots you appear to be wanting to connect.

Yes, I understand that Bill. My point is that some people here, seem to be using 'witness' accounts as gospel. I'm simply saying that we all know that witness testimony, much like the media, is often highly distorted.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Probably havent been reading up on it as much as I should I suppose. Then again, with new stories popping up every minute, you need a break now and then..lol. Anyways, thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I understand that Bill. My point is that some people here, seem to be using 'witness' accounts as gospel. I'm simply saying that we all know that witness testimony, much like the media, is often highly distorted.

Fair enough. But we seem to be getting a lot of that on both sides of the issue. People seem to be able to read minds, the way they claim to know the motivation of Zimmerman. Nobody knows anything except Zimmerman about what happened in the moments before he pulled the trigger, to the best of my knowledge. The rest is just supposition, and people are getting all crazy behind theories that there is zero proof for.

 

[MJS]

Fair enough. But we seem to be getting a lot of that on both sides of the issue. People seem to be able to read minds, the way they claim to know the motivation of Zimmerman. Nobody knows anything except Zimmerman about what happened in the moments before he pulled the trigger, to the best of my knowledge. The rest is just supposition, and people are getting all crazy behind theories that there is zero proof for.

Yup, just like I said in a post on pg. 22. You can't ask Martin, Zimmerman will give you his version, you can't rely 100% on a witness, so correct...the only person the system can rely on, is Zimmerman.

 

[Wo Fat]

I have to wonder, with all the defending of Zimmerman's actions, why the hell we as martial artists even worry about self-defense law at all.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Which begs the question: what kind of martial artist (including instructors of martial arts) would defend, condone, justify or minimize the actions of someone who voluntarily places himself in harm's way, only to have to defend him or herself?

That's a pi$$ poor example of a martial artist.

"We don't need you to do that..."

 

[MJS]

I disagree with your reasoning about 'engagement' from a legal perspective. The law cares about the actual assault and the reasonableness of Zimmerman's actions at that time, not what led up to it. If it were true, any citizen who follows a DUI driver while calling 911 to give the police a description would be guilty if the suspected DUI driver pulled over, got out, and shot them.

Perhaps I'm not following you here and forgive me if thats the case. IMO, everything should come into play. Using your scenario, what if, in an attempt to get away from the person following them, the DUI driver crashed. It could be said that if the person wasn't following, they wouldn't have crashed. I'm sure the same thing has been said about police pursuits. You know, when the dead mans family says, "Well, if the cops weren't chasing him....."

As to what Zimmerman thought Martin was doing that was 'suspicious', I believe that was covered in the transcript of the 911 call. Zimmerman said Martin was 'acting strange' by wandering around the neighborhood in the rain with his hands his pockets, looking at various houses.

And this is akin to walking/standing while black. I love the calls that I take, where the caller complains about 3 black guys standing on the corner. What are they doing? Well, nothing, they're just standing there, but they look suspicious. Sure, they could be drug dealers, they could be just a bunch of guys hanging around.

Martin was on his way back to his father's house from a nearby convenience store. It was raining, he was wearing a hoodie, he had a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, and he was on the phone with his girlfriend.

And this sparked Zimmerman to do something? Perhaps, if he (Martin) was in fact new to the neighborhood, he may've seemed out of place. Then again, I've seen vehicles driving around my complex that I've never seen before. I certainly dont call the cops.

You can certainly question whether or not Martin attacked Zimmerman; but as I've said previously, we have no evidence of any kind (that I'm aware of) that Zimmerman's statement to police isn't true.

Correct. Until we know for sure, I'll take his statement with a grain of salt.

With regard to the injuries allegedly suffered by Zimmerman, that's gone back and forth. The latest is that CNN and other major news outlets have stated that enhanced video of Zimmerman's entrance to the police station does show what appears to be bumps or injury to the back of his head, and a police officer appears to reach up, wipe his head, and then wipe his own hand on his pants leg, indicating he had wiped something on Zimmerman's head with his hand. Martin's family have stopped claiming that the video shows 'no injuries', so apparently that argument is a non-issue now.

Ok.

I understand people having strong feelings about this case. I understand people having opinions. I have no idea how it is that people are coming to conclusions about what happened when nobody but Zimmerman know what really happened. There just isn't any information to prove anything one way or another about Zimmerman's story.

Yup.

 

[billc]

Here is a nice summary of how what we think we initially knew was actually all wrong...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/why-i-called-george-zimmerman-a-murderer-and-why-i-was-wrong/

Why I Called George Zimmerman a Murderer, and Why I Was Wrong

On March 17, I thought I had it all figured out. I wrote a post on my blog in which I pronounced America’s most famous neighborhood watch captain guilty:

How naive that post now seems. The narrative created by the media at that time was one of an innocent life taken for no reason at all, by a much older, heavier, and racist man itching for a confrontation.

That was before we found out there was only one gunshot and no coup de grâce. That was before we found out that George Zimmerman had not deluged the local police with 46 paranoid 911 calls in one year, but 46 calls over a period of eight years, which isn’t unreasonable for a community watch volunteer. The media had either lied about how often he called, or purposefully compressed the timeline.
That was before we learned that Zimmerman didn’t know Martin’s race when he made the call, and that race didn’t play a roll in any of the 911 calls the local police had on file.
That was before we discovered that George Zimmerman wasn’t the 240-plus pound bruiser in the five-year-old picture the media used as much as possible, but was listed at a much smaller 170 pounds by none other than the New York Times. That’s a nominal 20 pounds heavier than a teen that stood four inches over him.
That was before we found out that two eyewitnesses placed Martin on top of Zimmerman as the aggressor, and that at least one of them claims it was Zimmerman crying for help.
That was before ABC News attempted to claim police surveillance video disproved Zimmerman’s claim of being injured in what may have been a purposeful deception. The very same news organization was forced to later admit the presence of two lacerations on the back of George Zimmerman’s skull consistent with his claim of self-defense. In the end, details of the beating Zimmerman suffered at Trayvon Martin’s hands were only given a brief mention in the local news.
That was before NBC News was forced to fire a senior producer for selectively editing audio of Zimmerman’s 911 call in a deliberate effort to make him sound racist.
And of course, almost no one knows that on the night he took Trayvon Martin’s life, George Zimmerman willingly consented to take a voice stress analyzer test, a kind of lie detector test used by the Sanford police. He passed it.
The narrative has changed in the wake of new details, eyewitnesses, and embarrassing retreats. The actual story may in fact have been a textbook example of the proper use of deadly force.

Has anyone else heard about this...

And of course, almost no one knows that on the night he took Trayvon Martin’s life, George Zimmerman willingly consented to take a voice stress analyzer test, a kind of lie detector test used by the Sanford police. He passed it.

 

[Wo Fat]

The law cares about the actual assault and the reasonableness of Zimmerman's actions at that time, not what led up to it. If it were true, any citizen who follows a DUI driver while calling 911 to give the police a description would be guilty if the suspected DUI driver pulled over, got out, and shot them.

The danger about a deaf, dumb and blind adherence to the law is sometimes an affront to public goodwill--not to mention, self-serving. There was once a time when I couldn't vote or be married to my wife. Why? Because "the law" said so. Good and decent people saw these laws for what they were; spoke loudly against them; and the very men who created "the law" were forced stand down while good people went about the work of changing them. It should go without saying that most laws do not fall into that category, but in this case it's a necessary reminder that such laws still get passed from time to time.

That said, a responsible law would have cared about Zimmerman's actions before he supposedly/allegedly found himself in life-or-death danger and subsequently killed an unarmed kid (yes, a 17 year old is still a kid, people's ignorant fears notwithstanding).

I understand people having strong feelings about this case. I understand people having opinions. I have no idea how it is that people are coming to conclusions about what happened when nobody but Zimmerman know what really happened. There just isn't any information to prove anything one way or another about Zimmerman's story.

And if that's the standard, then Zimmerman's days are numbered. American prisons are chock full of guys who pulled the trigger, and who just happened to be the only guy who can "explain" why he did it. These kinds of guys are arrested, tried, convicted and locked up based--in many cases--on nothing but circumstantial evidence. Ironically, the people who are just fine with that system of justice, would be up in arms if the George Zimmermans of society were adjudicated in the same way.

With all that said, I have changed my mind and now have a bad feeling that Zimmerman will walk (on the criminal charges). While there is a Special Prosecutor, I don't have enough faith that she can be "special" enough to take on SYG. These kinds of (pernicious and wreckless) laws have always required men and women of a certain courage to fight them in the courts. By no means do I agree that Zimmerman's actions were appropriate; quite the contrary. I think that he was every bit as pernicious and wreckless as the law. I just don't see this particular lady going into a Southern court and fighting this kind of law.