Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[MJS]

Apparently so:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

However, the city neither claims he was a member nor states he wasn't. I can only surmise that if there was no such group, or if he was not a member, they'd have said so. Since they mention it and don't state he wasn't a member, I have to conclude that he is.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

There is also a link on their page to Neighborhood Watch information; which again does not say they have one, but it sure seems as if they would, since they provide the information.


EDIT: Correction, they do have an official Neighborhood Watch program: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/index.html

I'm curious, and if it was there, I may've just missed it, but I'm wondering if there is a policy/rule set that the members of the watch group, have to follow. Following and reporting are one thing, but engaging the person you're following, IMO, takes it to a different level.

Breaking news related to the case?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ot-neighborhood-teen-killed-article-1.1059140



View attachment 16286

What a bunch of *******s! Blocking the entrance to the PD..LOL...I love how the cops just locked the doors, ignored them and used the rear entrance. Shooting up the car....like I said...*******s! This is proving what? I swear, some members of the public really are ****ing stupid!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm curious, and if it was there, I may've just missed it, but I'm wondering if there is a policy/rule set that the members of the watch group, have to follow. Following and reporting are one thing, but engaging the person you're following, IMO, takes it to a different level.

Yes, the rules for Neighborhood watch are to observe and report. They are not to engage suspects at all. There is nothing about members of Neighborhood Watch being armed, either.

However, one also has to consider this - Zimmerman was, according to his statements and that of his family; on the way to the store. Armed legally with a concealed weapon. Neighborhood Watch OK with that? No, but a private citizen with a CCW can do it, which Zimmerman was. In other words, he didn't stop having a CCW because he was a member of Neighborhood Watch. And his choice to engage? Again, Zimmerman claimed he didn't; he said he was engaged when he got out of his truck to see if he could spot Martin when he originally lost sight of him. He claimed he was returning to his truck when Martin came upon him, catching him by surprise and attacking him. So again, according to him, he didn't 'engage' as a member of Neighborhood Watch or as a private citizen.

Consider also the Guardian Angels; they're still around. They also follow people around. Some have legally concealed weapons. They are also supposed to observe and report, not engage. But a citizen doesn't lose his right to self-defense just because he's wearing a red beret that day, you know? If attacked, he can still defend himself.

What a bunch of *******s! Blocking the entrance to the PD..LOL...I love how the cops just locked the doors, ignored them and used the rear entrance. Shooting up the car....like I said...*******s! This is proving what? I swear, some members of the public really are ****ing stupid!

The whole thing is turning into a violent circus. The New Black Panther Party is offering a 'dead or alive' bounty on Zimmerman, a White Supremacist group nobody ever heard of is claiming they are patrolling the neighborhood to make it 'safe for white people', and the whole thing is turning into a powder keg.

 

[Carol]

The whole thing is turning into a violent circus. The New Black Panther Party is offering a 'dead or alive' bounty on Zimmerman, a White Supremacist group nobody ever heard of is claiming they are patrolling the neighborhood to make it 'safe for white people', and the whole thing is turning into a powder keg.

Yikes!!

And the next development, the state has brought in an aggressive prosecutor for the probe to determine whether charges should be filed against Zimmerman.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justi...paign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yikes!!

And the next development, the state has brought in an aggressive prosecutor for the probe to determine whether charges should be filed against Zimmerman.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justi...paign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)

That's fascinating, thank you!

It is interesting to me that in this particular case, the liberals are going to have to suck up to Corey, who would be their natural enemy with regard to the prosecuting the 12-year-old as an adult thing. She appears to be a hardnose 'the law is the law' type, usually anathema to liberals.


EDIT:

Discussing Florida's "stand your ground" law -- which allows people to use deadly force in situations in which they feel a reasonable threat of death or serious injury -- Corey said, "our laws are very clear that it has to be a forcible felony and that a reasonable person would have to believe that deadly force is necessary as opposed to just physical force, fighting back and that sort of thing. I've prosecuted a woman who shot her husband and killed him because he slapped her, and we argued that was not deadly force and she was convicted and sent to state prison."

I would agree with her decision in the wife-slapping incident she discusses. However, if *I* were on the ground, and my head was being pounded into the pavement by a person straddling me, I believe I would be in fear of my life, and I also believe that is a 'reasonable' belief to have. Assuming that Zimmerman was and is telling the truth, that's how it seems to me at this time.
Let's see how it plays out. If she prosecutes, they'll love her; but what about her other controversial stances? If she doesn't, well, she's about the toughest DA they could find, so now what?

 

[ballen0351]

The store devtive is an employee of a private corporation. A private detective has been hired for a specific task. A neighbourhood watch is still a civiian following another civilian on public property.

Store security has no authority either. They cant stop you detain you or touch you. They can ask you to come to the back and call the police thats it. If they touch you then you can charge them with assault. Other states may be different but here at least i dream for the day some security guard grabs me when the cashier forgets to take off the security tag on something i bought.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wow, busy day for Zimmerman:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html

George Zimmerman’s lawyers withdraw from case, lose contact with Trayvon-case shooter
BY FRANCES ROBLES
[email protected]

George Zimmerman's attorneys withdrew from the controversial Trayvon Martin shooting case Tuesday, saying they have lost contact with their client, who began making moves without consulting them.

The lawyers said Zimmerman called special prosecutor Angela Corey on Tuesday, a highly unusual move for the target of an investigation who is being represented by a lawyer.

He made the call despite not having returned calls from his attorneys, Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig, since Sunday, Sonner said.

“He won’t even give me a collect call,” Sonner said.

He added that Zimmerman, who has left the state but not the country, also called Fox News talk show host Sean Hannity without talkibg to the lawyers.

Zimmerman also set up a website linked to a Paypal account that was different than the one the attorneys arranged through Zimmerman’s father, the lawyers said.

Now he's behaving like an idiot.

 

[seasoned]

Wow, busy day for Zimmerman:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html



Now he's behaving like an idiot.

Going off half cocked will not bode well for him. Loose lips sink ships, or something like that.................

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Going off half cocked will not bode well for him. Loose lips sink ships, or something like that.................

Well, innocent or guilty, you don't call the DA on the phone for an unrepresented chat. This guy must be in serious freak-out mode.

 

[shesulsa]

Wow, busy day for Zimmerman:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html



Now he's behaving like an idiot.

COLOR me shocked.

 

[Wo Fat]

Wow, busy day for Zimmerman:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2741248/george-zimmermans-lawyers-withdraw.html



Now he's behaving like an idiot.

Now?? No, he's behaving like the nutjob that he has always appeared to be. Now, the reality has set in and he knows that the wing nut blogosphere and race deniers can no longer defend him or his actions.

 

[jks9199]

Store security has no authority either. They cant stop you detain you or touch you. They can ask you to come to the back and call the police thats it. If they touch you then you can charge them with assault. Other states may be different but here at least i dream for the day some security guard grabs me when the cashier forgets to take off the security tag on something i bought.

Depends very much on state law. In Virginia, they do have the authority to detain someone for a limited time, while they summon the police, IF they have probable cause to suspect shoplifting.

 

[ballen0351]

Depends very much on state law. In Virginia, they do have the authority to detain someone for a limited time, while they summon the police, IF they have probable cause to suspect shoplifting.

So if they resist do you charge the shopplifter with resisting arrest? Do they have any training to detain people? Sounds like a bad time waiting to happen having seen the caliber of some loss prevention employees Ive delt with.

 

[MJS]

Yes, the rules for Neighborhood watch are to observe and report. They are not to engage suspects at all. There is nothing about members of Neighborhood Watch being armed, either.

However, one also has to consider this - Zimmerman was, according to his statements and that of his family; on the way to the store. Armed legally with a concealed weapon. Neighborhood Watch OK with that? No, but a private citizen with a CCW can do it, which Zimmerman was. In other words, he didn't stop having a CCW because he was a member of Neighborhood Watch. And his choice to engage? Again, Zimmerman claimed he didn't; he said he was engaged when he got out of his truck to see if he could spot Martin when he originally lost sight of him. He claimed he was returning to his truck when Martin came upon him, catching him by surprise and attacking him. So again, according to him, he didn't 'engage' as a member of Neighborhood Watch or as a private citizen.

I disagree with what Zimmerman is claiming. He engaged the minute he decided to follow Martin. I'm wondering too, what Martin was doing that was suspicious? Has the ever been determined? Wasnt he visiting friends in the area? And I'm also questioning whether Martin actually attacked him. Seems like theres doubt as to whether or not his head was actually injured.

Consider also the Guardian Angels; they're still around. They also follow people around. Some have legally concealed weapons. They are also supposed to observe and report, not engage. But a citizen doesn't lose his right to self-defense just because he's wearing a red beret that day, you know? If attacked, he can still defend himself.

Absolutely. In fact, I'd expect no less from someone, to defend themselves, were they to come under attack. OTOH, I'm fairly certain the GA's are pretty well known, mainly by the uniform they wear. They certainly stand out, dont you think? What was Zimmerman wearing? Average every day clothes? Were someone following me, that was dressed in the same type of clothing as I, I'd think I was about to be the victim of a mugging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels

Yes, I'd feel 10 times more safe having the GAs patrol my neighborhood, rather than a bunch of Zimmermans! LOL! I mean really, you can't even begin to compare the 2.

The whole thing is turning into a violent circus. The New Black Panther Party is offering a 'dead or alive' bounty on Zimmerman, a White Supremacist group nobody ever heard of is claiming they are patrolling the neighborhood to make it 'safe for white people', and the whole thing is turning into a powder keg.

Yup, its definately a cluster. And whats worse, is no matter the outcome, it'll still be a disaster. Zimmerman gets off..holy ****, there will be riots in the street. It'll be akin to Rodney King. Zimmerman gets sent up the river....yeah, there'll be riots. A no win situation all around, and the circus will be led by a bunch of idiot ringleaders, who think that rioting will somehow solve the problem.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Now?? No, he's behaving like the nutjob that he has always appeared to be. Now, the reality has set in and he knows that the wing nut blogosphere and race deniers can no longer defend him or his actions.

Just for the record, I don't know what a race denier is.

And I've never defended Zimmerman.

And I don't know what his actions were, other than those that are not disputed. If they were what he said they were, then I defend his actions as I would anyone in the same situation. If not, then no. But I don't know if he's lying or not. Neither do you.

In any case, I've never said Zimmerman was innocent. I said that it would be very difficult for the state to prove a criminal case. Being found "Not Guilty" is not the same thing as "Innocent." Not being prosecuted for lack of evidence also does not mean "Innocent." Nor does it mean "Guilty." It means what it says.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Depends very much on state law. In Virginia, they do have the authority to detain someone for a limited time, while they summon the police, IF they have probable cause to suspect shoplifting.

In Colorado, the security guard must personally witness the suspect conceal the item on his or her person. He does not have to wait for the suspect to exit the store, but he must keep the suspect under 100% total observation from the moment he sees the concealment to the moment he stops him. And the stop is generally (most store policies) inside the store or not at all. It requires a bit more than just PC.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So if they resist do you charge the shopplifter with resisting arrest? Do they have any training to detain people? Sounds like a bad time waiting to happen having seen the caliber of some loss prevention employees Ive delt with.

Security in Colorado is allowed to detain. If they assault you, that's assault. Can't charge them with resisting arrest, they're not under arrest; they're being detained for police. It's a distinction without a difference, but there you go. It was the same when I was a Marine MP at Camp Pendleton; I could 'detain' civilians for federal law enforcement, but not arrest them. Same thing; they still wore my hand-irons and got thumped if they resisted 'detention'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So if they resist do you charge the shopplifter with resisting arrest? Do they have any training to detain people? Sounds like a bad time waiting to happen having seen the caliber of some loss prevention employees Ive delt with.

FYI, a citizen can do the same thing. A security guard's detention is essentially citizen's arrest in that he has the same authority as any citizen; no more, no less.

 

[billc]

Do you mean the race deniers who are calling Zimmerman a "white," hispanic, in order to create a "race" problem with this case even if there isn't evidence that race was a factor in the incident. As the "he was a racist," meme falls apart it would be nice if people focused on the non-race aspect of this, even as we go along without knowing exactly what happened. How many more news agencies need to push the "race," agenda in this case, and be proven wrong, before we can get back on track?

 

[ballen0351]

I disagree with what Zimmerman is claiming. He engaged the minute he decided to follow Martin.

Engaged how? because he was following a strange person in his neighborhood? Happens 1000's of times a day all over the country. At least he takes pride in his neighborhood and wants to keep it safe.
[quote I'm wondering too, what Martin was doing that was suspicious? Has the ever been determined? [/quote]

Strange person in the neighborhood. Suspicious to you or I not so much but to others yes. I live in a rual area and know most of the people from here. If I see someone that does not look familiar Id take notice. we have a bunch of day time burglaries here right now and I am home during the day so I may even follow and call in on someone around here if I dont know them.

Wasnt he visiting friends in the area?

Family I believe lived in the area if I remember.

And I'm also questioning whether Martin actually attacked him. Seems like theres doubt as to whether or not his head was actually injured.

Well according to the witness that saw it and Zimmerman's story he was. BUT thats just what the news has reported so far and we know how great the reporting has been so far on this case.

Absolutely. In fact, I'd expect no less from someone, to defend themselves, were they to come under attack. OTOH, I'm fairly certain the GA's are pretty well known, mainly by the uniform they wear. They certainly stand out, dont you think?

Sure do they are pretty easy to spot

What was Zimmerman wearing? Average every day clothes? Were someone following me, that was dressed in the same type of clothing as I, I'd think I was about to be the victim of a mugging.

So every time you walk down the street and someone is behind you in every day clothes walking the same way you feel like your going to get mugged?

Yes, I'd feel 10 times more safe having the GAs patrol my neighborhood, rather than a bunch of Zimmermans! LOL! I mean really, you can't even begin to compare the 2.

Actually Id rather have a bunch of neighbors that actually care about their own neighborhoods then the GA who are a bunch of Wanna Be Cops. They do alot more then report and observe from their own website they claim during the past 33 years and The Guardian Angels were in the trenches, not as mere witnesses, but active modifiers of history.

Yup, its definately a cluster. And whats worse, is no matter the outcome, it'll still be a disaster. Zimmerman gets off..holy ****, there will be riots in the street. It'll be akin to Rodney King. Zimmerman gets sent up the river....yeah, there'll be riots. A no win situation all around, and the circus will be led by a bunch of idiot ringleaders, who think that rioting will somehow solve the problem.

I agree with that its a no win situation. I blame the Media for all lies they have put out as facts. ALL the Fancy editing to make better stories like "He's suspicious and black" instead of the truth with the dispatcher asking him what race the person was and Zimmerman answering him, the suggestive messages like "coons" instead of "cold". Playing clips of a "witness" that didnt "witness" anything but sure found time to talk about it to the news.

At this point I have no idea whos telling the truth and prob never will.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I disagree with what Zimmerman is claiming. He engaged the minute he decided to follow Martin. I'm wondering too, what Martin was doing that was suspicious? Has the ever been determined? Wasnt he visiting friends in the area? And I'm also questioning whether Martin actually attacked him. Seems like theres doubt as to whether or not his head was actually injured.

I disagree with your reasoning about 'engagement' from a legal perspective. The law cares about the actual assault and the reasonableness of Zimmerman's actions at that time, not what led up to it. If it were true, any citizen who follows a DUI driver while calling 911 to give the police a description would be guilty if the suspected DUI driver pulled over, got out, and shot them.

As to what Zimmerman thought Martin was doing that was 'suspicious', I believe that was covered in the transcript of the 911 call. Zimmerman said Martin was 'acting strange' by wandering around the neighborhood in the rain with his hands his pockets, looking at various houses.

Martin was on his way back to his father's house from a nearby convenience store. It was raining, he was wearing a hoodie, he had a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, and he was on the phone with his girlfriend.

You can certainly question whether or not Martin attacked Zimmerman; but as I've said previously, we have no evidence of any kind (that I'm aware of) that Zimmerman's statement to police isn't true.

With regard to the injuries allegedly suffered by Zimmerman, that's gone back and forth. The latest is that CNN and other major news outlets have stated that enhanced video of Zimmerman's entrance to the police station does show what appears to be bumps or injury to the back of his head, and a police officer appears to reach up, wipe his head, and then wipe his own hand on his pants leg, indicating he had wiped something on Zimmerman's head with his hand. Martin's family have stopped claiming that the video shows 'no injuries', so apparently that argument is a non-issue now.

I understand people having strong feelings about this case. I understand people having opinions. I have no idea how it is that people are coming to conclusions about what happened when nobody but Zimmerman know what really happened. There just isn't any information to prove anything one way or another about Zimmerman's story.