Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[WC_lun]

If Zimmerman put hands on Martin first then he is responsible. If someone I do not know puts hands on me, I am going to reacte. That is self-defense. If Martin struck out at Zimmerman because he was just following him, that was not self-defense. While I do not think the use of a firearm in that instance is okay, it would fit within Florida's law.

From what I have been reading, the no retreat law has been taken advantage of, resulting in killings that bring no charges. You shouldn't be able to kill someone because they are defending themselves. I don't know that is the case here. It seems that is what the police need to investigate.

 

[punisher73]

Newest story says that police have witnesses that stated that Zimmerman was attacked first. The report has been turned over to special prosecutor's.

On a weird side note story. Trayvon's mom is trying to trademark his name.

http://now.msn.com/now/0326-trayvon-martin-trademark.aspx

 

[CanuckMA]

If Zimmerman put hands on Martin first then he is responsible. If someone I do not know puts hands on me, I am going to reacte. That is self-defense. If Martin struck out at Zimmerman because he was just following him, that was not self-defense. While I do not think the use of a firearm in that instance is okay, it would fit within Florida's law.

I disagree. Self defense can be claimed if you are in fear for your safety. If I'm walking down the street and someone is following me like that, I'd fear.

 

[ballen0351]

I disagree. Self defense can be claimed if you are in fear for your safety. If I'm walking down the street and someone is following me like that, I'd fear.

Depends on where you are. Maryland has Duty to Retreat Laws. Your required to run away if you can. If the State can prove you had the ability to run then no self defense for you. We also have no self defense laws on the books. Our only self defense comes from past case law. And now after this case I dont see us getting any self defense laws here anytime soon in face I see them taking away any self defense we already had. The State Congressional Black Caucus is asking the Federal Govt to look into Fla's Self Defense laws. I have no clue why the State of Maryland thinks it has any right to question other states laws but apparently they think they do. They all wore hoodies to the state house and then help press conf. demanding action.

 

[ballen0351]

On a weird side note story. Trayvon's mom is trying to trademark his name.

I read that it was strange to me too but Id rather his mom make money then Al Sharpton.

 

[ballen0351]

You do know that that's not Trayvon Martin, dontcha?

Nope the news said it was him and if people can use the news to say an entire Police Department is racist and covered up a murder and it must be true because the news said it was then thats him I dont care about your facts since nobody else seems to care about them with regard to this case. Besides I heard a witness say it was from his uncles facebook page but he was just playing with the camera hes not really a thug it was halloween and he was on his way to church to help feed the homeless. but the Racist cops told the witness he was wrong so he went home.

 

[MJS]

If Zimmerman put hands on Martin first then he is responsible. If someone I do not know puts hands on me, I am going to reacte. That is self-defense. If Martin struck out at Zimmerman because he was just following him, that was not self-defense. While I do not think the use of a firearm in that instance is okay, it would fit within Florida's law.

From what I have been reading, the no retreat law has been taken advantage of, resulting in killings that bring no charges. You shouldn't be able to kill someone because they are defending themselves. I don't know that is the case here. It seems that is what the police need to investigate.

I googled Florida Self Defense Laws. A bunch of stuff popped up, this being something that I thought was interesting:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702685/floridas-controversial-self-defense.html

“If he was attacked, he can stand his ground,” said retired Miami-Dade prosecutor David Waksman, who is not involved in the case. “But if police say back off and we’ll take care of it, he’s not covered by the law.”

And this is what happened. The dispatcher told him not to follow. Supposedly he did anyways, yet in other stories, it said he was walking back to his vehicle when Martin approached from behind. Gee, isn't it amazing how stories change from minute to minute.

Florida’s controversial self-defense law eliminated a citizen’s duty to retreat before using deadly force to confront an attacker. Police and prosecutors statewide have derided the measure, saying the law fosters a shoot-first, ask-questions-later mentality and gives criminal a pass on facing justice.

Yup, this sounds exactly like what happened.

Last month, however, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Milton Hirsch denied the immunity claim of a Florida International University student who fatally stabbed an unarmed football player during a brawl.

The law “does not justify the use of deadly force in response to threats or shows of force of any and ever kind. In ordinary circumstances a push or a slap may be met with a push or a slap, or perhaps a punch — but not with a bullet,” Hirsch said.

Exactly! I'm sorry, but I still can't buy into the fact Zimmerman was in the right to shoot this kid. Even if he punched him, so what. Again, imagine if a dirtbag on the street punched a cop, and the cop pulls his gun and blows the guy away. Holy ****, and if the cop got off, there'd be riots in the street!

​

 

[ballen0351]

And this is what happened. The dispatcher told him not to follow. Supposedly he did anyways, yet in other stories, it said he was walking back to his vehicle when Martin approached from behind. Gee, isn't it amazing how stories change from minute to minute.

Thats why you cant jump to judgment without all the facts which is what everyone that claimed Coverup has done. Reporters dont have all the facts and what they are missing they fill in with speculation. My own personal shooting I was a victim of this but since the person I shot was white it never made national news only local stuff but the stories the news put out were 100% wrong.

Exactly! I'm sorry, but I still can't buy into the fact Zimmerman was in the right to shoot this kid. Even if he punched him, so what. Again, imagine if a dirtbag on the street punched a cop, and the cop pulls his gun and blows the guy away. Holy ****, and if the cop got off, there'd be riots in the street!

​

Again your jumping to conclusions without the full story. If all the kid did was punch him and stop then your right but at least one story so far has him banging Zimmermans head into the ground and I read one story where his gun fell out and Martin was trying to grab the gun. The point is the news does not have the full story the police do. But people want to automatically cry racism and demand justice without letting the police and prosecutors do the investigation first. If Zimmerman broke the law he will be charged once the investigation is finished if he didnt then he wont. I dont care either way I just dont want to see political pressure cause someone that shouldnt be charged end up charged to appease the people that dont even have the facts. We are not tried and convicted in the news in this country your innocent until proven guilty in a court of law not after a 2 min news clip on the 6 oclock news.

 

[Grenadier]

Right now, it's looking like the media could owe a big "mea culpa" after all is said and done, since they were in a feeding frenzy the likes of which reminded me of the Tawana Brawley case and the Duke Lacrosse Team case.

Not coincidentally, in both cases, you had Al Sharpton stoking the flames of racial hatred.

The police stated that Zimmerman's statement is consistent with the evidence in hand:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ns-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087

SANFORD — With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, then climbed on top of him and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before Zimmerman shot the unarmed 17-year-old to death, the Orlando Sentinel reported on Monday.

The Sentinel, citing unidentified authorities, said that is the account Zimmerman gave to police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses.

The department's statement also said the Sentinel's report on Zimmerman's account was "consistent" with evidence turned over to prosecutors, the AP said.

On another, somewhat related note, the hate mongering Black Panther leader who put out the bounty on George Zimmerman's head, just got arrested for unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon:

http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panther-leader-1398575.html

A high-ranking member of the New Black Panther Party remained in the DeKalb County Jail on a weapons charge Tuesday.

Hashim Nzinga, 49, was was arrested for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, the DeKalb County Sheriff’s Office said Monday.

 

[aedrasteia]

The point is the news does not have the full story the police do. But people want to automatically cry racism and demand justice without letting the police and prosecutors do the investigation first.

Ballen

respectfully - there would be no investigation by police and prosecutors without the outcry and demand for justice
that you condemn. I'm wondering how you square that situation.

Neither police/prosecutors went further at the time of the death. There was no investigation
beyond the initial statements by Mr. Zimmerman. My assumption from your comment is that the investigation
currently underway is useful and proper and should be allowed to procede.

But this investigation - which we all hope is effective - would not be taking place at all without the
actions of those who were shocked that it had not been initiated by police/prosecutors
at the time of the death of Mr. Martin. For me that is the central issue which is intolerable, that
there was no thorough, complete investigation initially.

"If Zimmerman broke the law he will be charged once the investigation is finished if he didnt then he wont." your comment.

At the time there was no investigation. Without the demands you condemn, there would be none at all.
Your thoughts?

 

[crushing]

Right now, it's looking like the media could owe a big "mea culpa" after all is said and done, since they were in a feeding frenzy the likes of which reminded me of the Tawana Brawley case and the Duke Lacrosse Team case.

Not coincidentally, in both cases, you had Al Sharpton stoking the flames of racial hatred.

The police stated that Zimmerman's statement is consistent with the evidence in hand:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ns-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087

Who would have guessed that billi is a Tampa Bay Times staff writer?

 

[ballen0351]

Adrasteia

Where did you get that info from. How do you know there was no investigation? The news tell you that? The same news thats been wrong every step of the way on this case.

 

[elder999]

Adrasteia

Where did you get that info from. How do you know there was no investigation? The news tell you that? The same news thats been wrong every step of the way on this case.

Yeah, there was an "investigation," all right.

The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence

and:

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

 

[aedrasteia]

Ballen

Thank you for your specificity. I'll try to do the same. The initial investigation by police resulted in no charges
against Mr. Zimmerman but apparently did not include a variety of additional investigative actions that are now
underway and which i believe you approve of. Is this correct? Are you satisfied that the original LE and prosecutorial
investigative actions were sufficient? Is the current, further investigation necessary or unnecessary?

I have not commented until now because i felt much more information was needed
and the inflamed rhetoric generated little light and lots of unhelpful heat. But I also wondered
why several investigatory actions seemed to have not been taken at the time.

I have no conclusions at this time - except that I'm glad this is getting a much closer and more thorough
examination. I wish that had happened earlier. Are you satisfied that the initial actions by police etc were
sufficient? Is the current investigation necessary? Why or why not?

thanks

 

[MJS]

Thats why you cant jump to judgment without all the facts which is what everyone that claimed Coverup has done. Reporters dont have all the facts and what they are missing they fill in with speculation. My own personal shooting I was a victim of this but since the person I shot was white it never made national news only local stuff but the stories the news put out were 100% wrong.



Again your jumping to conclusions without the full story. If all the kid did was punch him and stop then your right but at least one story so far has him banging Zimmermans head into the ground and I read one story where his gun fell out and Martin was trying to grab the gun. The point is the news does not have the full story the police do. But people want to automatically cry racism and demand justice without letting the police and prosecutors do the investigation first. If Zimmerman broke the law he will be charged once the investigation is finished if he didnt then he wont. I dont care either way I just dont want to see political pressure cause someone that shouldnt be charged end up charged to appease the people that dont even have the facts. We are not tried and convicted in the news in this country your innocent until proven guilty in a court of law not after a 2 min news clip on the 6 oclock news.

Easier said than done. If that was the way it should be, then nothing would be reported, ever, until ALL of the 'facts' were brought to light. Are you telling me that LEOs themselves, never jump to conclusions before all the facts are obtained? Obtaining all the facts could take years.

If you notice, I"ve said in many posts that my intent was not to turn this into some racial debate, however, the fact remains that race ultimately will play a part in this, like it or not. I'm simply going on what has been presented at this time.

In the end, and I know this'll probably sound like I'm jumping to conclusion, but IMO, I dont think so....but as I've said so many times in the past, half of these situations that people find themselves in, could probably have been avoided, if people used simple common sense. IMO, its not up to a citizen to physically get involved in a possible criminal investigation. You want to get involved? Pick up your phone, call the cops, report what you see, and let THEM handle it. Instead of trying to get the part of Chrles Bronson for the next installment of Death Wish, use your head. Sadly, thats a foreign concept for some. Oh well.....

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen

Thank you for your specificity. I'll try to do the same. The initial investigation by police resulted in no charges
against Mr. Zimmerman but apparently did not include a variety of additional investigative actions that are now
underway and which i believe you approve of. Is this correct?

See I dont know where your getting your information. Investigations like this are complex and take time esp when you have conflicting witness statements and even more so for smaller police departments that are not normally asked to handle them. The initial investigation showed there was at least enough information to hold off charging Zimmerman until further info could be determinded. That wasnt good enough for Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson that saw Dollar signs and began to turn this into a media circus.

Are you satisfied that the original LE and prosecutorial
investigative actions were sufficient? Is the current, further investigation necessary or unnecessary?

I have no idea since im not part of the investigation. I can only go off the same news reports everyone else sees and my own personal knowledge of Homicide Investiagtions of which Ive taken part in a few. My only argument in all this is to disagree with people that sit here and bash the police call them Racist and say they dont know what they are doing. Nobody here has any factual information on what the police have and have not done so I dont know how anyone can make these claims of racism, and coverup.
My biggest complaint about the job the police have done is the way they have delt with the media. If I were in charge I would not have released ANYTHING no 911 tapes, no witness accounts, nothing. Its not the Police departments job to put its investigations out in the public. Some things are public information but that only applys if someone is arrested and since as of now there have not been any charges I wouldnt have released anything. Now they are spending just as much time trying to defend themselves as they are working the case.

. But I also wondered
why several investigatory actions seemed to have not been taken at the time.

What has happened now that didnt before?

Are you satisfied that the initial actions by police etc were
sufficient? Is the current investigation necessary? Why or why not?

Like I said I dont have any FACTS about what the police did or didnt do so I cant comment. What I do know is Ive been a Police Officer for over 10 years. Ive been involved in all aspects of a Homicide investigations including having been the shooter. I dont understand why any police officer would not try to do their job. Everyone would know going to a call like this the news is going to get involved its common sense an unarmed kid was shot the news is coming. As an officer we also know the media will ALWAYS make out the police in the neg. light. So I cant understand why they would purposly try and not do their job or cover it up. There were multiple officers involved so for Racism to play a part they would ALL need to be racists and I just dont buy that. One officer plants some dope on a minorty to lock him up sure Racism would be the key factor but and entire department nope. Maybe not everyone is as honest and hard working as the people I work with but I just dont see any reason why the Sanford PD wouldnt do their jobs. hey are an accredited Law enforcement agency. Which means they are regularly audited by Officers form other departments to make sure they are in compliance with the standards. We are also accredited and its a pain in the butt. It takes weeks to complete an audit 8 hours a day 5 days a week. The inspect EVERYTHING. So I just cant see Sanford PD being this screwed up. Not when Ive had my own dealings with the media myself.
It all comes down to most people dont like the police so no matter what the real FACTS are the police will be wrong. And when people like Al Sharpton are involved they dont want the facts. Hell they dont even want Zimmerman charged because once hes charged they have no more platform to speak.
thanks[/QUOTE]

 

[ballen0351]

Easier said than done. If that was the way it should be, then nothing would be reported, ever, until ALL of the 'facts' were brought to light.

True half truths and flase stories make better headlines but I would hope with all the times news storys are later shown to be wrong people would take them with a grain of salt.

Are you telling me that LEOs themselves, never jump to conclusions before all the facts are obtained?

Nope were human but I can say I try not to. I try to go into every case with an open mind. I also know the few times I KNEW I had a case figured out before I had all the facts I was totally WRONG.


.

In the end, and I know this'll probably sound like I'm jumping to conclusion, but IMO, I dont think so....but as I've said so many times in the past, half of these situations that people find themselves in, could probably have been avoided, if people used simple common sense.

I agree 100% that can be said about almost all crime

IMO, its not up to a citizen to physically get involved in a possible criminal investigation. You want to get involved? Pick up your phone, call the cops, report what you see, and let THEM handle it.

True which now the stories are coming out that this may be exactly what Zimmerman did

Instead of trying to get the part of Chrles Bronson for the next installment of Death Wish, use your head. Sadly, thats a foreign concept for some. Oh well.....

I agree as well but the facts may not support your opinon. If Zimmerman was infact walking away back to his truck and was attacked first then he did have a right to defend himself. Point is we dont know yet what happened.

 

[Big Don]

Remember this:

This was attacked by damn near everyone as racist.
Isn't this, then, racist as well?

And here’s the original pic…

You do know that that's not Trayvon Martin, dontcha?

That IS Trayvon Martin, why no comment Elder? Does it not fit the narrative?

 

[Big Don]

It is often said that you are known by the company you keep. I would add to that the corollary, you will also be known by those who support your cause.
Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton? Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson? The New Black Panther Party? Not good people to have on your side, imo.
The New Black Panther Party, is to black people what La Raza is to Hispanics and the KKK is to white people, a place for the worst dregs to gather together.

 

[Big Don]

Registered Dem Killed Trayvon

Meet registered Democrat and self-identified Hispanic American, George Zimmerman
BY: Andrew Stiles - March 27, 2012 12:28 pm
Washington Free Beacon EXCERPT:


The individual at the center of the controversial Trayvon Martin shooting is a registered Democrat.
George Michael Zimmerman, born Oct. 5, 1983, registered as a Democrat in Seminole County, Fla., in August 2002, according to state voter registration documents.
It is unclear whether he voted for President Barack Obama in 2008.
Some in the media have sought to blame Republican politicians and conservative activists for Martin’s death.
“[Republican politicians] reinforce and validate old stereotypes that associate the poor and welfare as criminal behavior with African-Americans and people of color, calling us lazy, undeserving recipients of public assistance. In the case of Trayvon, those festering stereotypes had lethal consequences,” said MSNBC political analyst and Democratic fundraiser Karen Finney.
According to the document, Zimmerman’s race is officially listed as Hispanic. The son of a white father and Peruvian mother, he has been described as a “white Hispanic” in most media reports.
end excerpt
Hmmm, registered democrat? Maybe he really is a racist, the democratic party is the party of Jim Crow, Robert Byrd and the KKK...