UFC proves KF useless

[Hanzou]

Not really. The story goes that Kano couldn't defeat one man at the tenshin shinyo ryu dojo he was studying at-apparently, he was quite large for a Japanese. Kano consulted a sumo wrestler, several other people, and found a technique in a book on western wrestling he thought might work, the fireman's carry. The fact that similar techniques existed-independent of "outside influence"(see previous post in re: human articulation and technique development)-in medieval European martial arts, Indian martial arts, sumo,. as well as several Japanese koryu jujutsu ryuha, including tenshin shinyo ryu, the very style Kano was studying doesn't make the story doubtful-but it does make the "influence" doubtful, and it is, as far as I can recall, the only place where he makes any mention of western wrestling prior to the development of judo. Later on, of course, as it became a sport, western wrestling had an influence on judo, especially (as I've said elsewhere) in the development of weight classes-these were, of course, post WWII developments-though, perhaps, he knew something of scholastic wrestling as an educator, and modeled some of judos structure on this-who can say? He certainly didn't-in fact, while he studied western wrestling and boxing, he made some rather negative comments on the (later) influence of western wrestling on judo randori...

Whether or not Kano was influenced by western wrestling is pretty irrelevant to the overall point; Judo has been influenced by western wrestling throughout its history and its still Judo. Please point out the classical Kung Fu or Karate style that has been influenced by Western Boxing or Wrestling and has still maintained its identity. You won't find one.

Further, you can't point to Judo and say that it's an example of classical Japanese Jujutsu in MMA. Just like you can't point to Sanshou and say that its an example of classical Kung fu in MMA.

Anyway, this discussion has run its course. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[Danny T]

I showed traditional Kung Fu styles. Clearly there's no way for me to show all of them. The OP is talking about traditional CMA, not modern eclectic styles like Sanshou.

Don't expect you to show everything but whether you will admit it or not the fact remains what you showed as and stated is what you view as kung fu reveals You, Hanzou, the person have a very limit view of kung fu.
If I presented a few videos of someone slowly shadowboxing in a mirror working on form and presentation, then working on a speed bag, and finally working footwork drills in a ring working off ropes and in & out of the corner stating this is what I think of as Boxing I would be presenting a very limited view of boxing.

That's great, but I seriously doubt those MMA fighters are practicing military Sanshou, and even if they were, that isn't the style the OP is talking about when they're discussing the lack of Kung Fu in MMA.

Now you bring an interesting point to view. Why has military Sanshou (original Sanshou) been maintained and Sport Sanshou has become an eclectic version? If MMA is the standard by which so many now espouse as being the best why is traditional kung fu within Sanshou still utilized by the military?

 

[Steve]

Whether or not Kano was influenced by western wrestling is pretty irrelevant to the overall point; Judo has been influenced by western wrestling throughout its history and its still Judo. Please point out the classical Kung Fu or Karate style that has been influenced by Western Boxing or Wrestling and has still maintained its identity. You won't find one.

Further, you can't point to Judo and say that it's an example of classical Japanese Jujutsu in MMA. Just like you can't point to Sanshou and say that its an example of classical Kung fu in MMA.

Anyway, this discussion has run its course. Feel free to have the last word.

And I'm pretty sure if asked, many here would agree with you that classical jujutsu, and many other styles are ill suited for MMA. But when you take classical jujutsu and adapt it to a competitive format, it magically transforms into judo. Same thing happens to classical cma... Voila! San shou.

Dude, judo doesn't even look like judo in MMA. Bjj doesn't look the same in MMA. Every style must adapt and synthesize with others. Why the reluctance to accept that Kung fu is represented when the evidence is so clear?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[elder999]

Whether or not Kano was influenced by western wrestling is pretty irrelevant to the overall point; Judo has been influenced by western wrestling throughout its history and its still Judo. Please point out the classical Kung Fu or Karate style that has been influenced by Western Boxing or Wrestling and has still maintained its identity. You won't find one.

Actually, it REALLY depends on what you're calling "classical Kung Fu or Karate style." AND what you're calling "influence."

Kyokushin, for instance, my style, was influenced from its inception by western boxing, and later influenced by Muay Thai. The first, before I was born, the second I got to see up close and personal the first day a guy from Japan kicked me in the leg in White Plains, NY-I was 15 years old, and I was like to get sick to my stomach. For some reason, it took 11 or 12 years from the "karate vs. muay thai" fights of 1963 for Oyama to okay leg kicks, but once he did, they were on-and we found out when the visiting Japanese started kicking us in the legs!

And there really is very little "classical karate" to be had out there-even the Okinawan forms that could be called purely Okinawan, were mostly codified and organized in the early to mid 20th century-what existed before was a loose conglomeration of various regional methodologies: it wasn't uncommon for some people's practice to consist of a lifetime of one kata.

Some argue that wing chun has been influenced by western boxing-that it's China's answer to western boxing. Back in New York, in the 70's and 80's, I regularly went up against Jow Ga and Fu Jow Pai people (nice people!) in full-contact matches, who "clearly" had practiced western boxing-the leading Jow Ga exponent, Dean Chin (Chin Duk Yun?), practiced Muay Thai, as well as a few other things...those Jow Ga guys hit pretty hard, too!

Ohtzuka claimed Wado Ryu sparring was influenced by western boxing-he made this claim during a visit to England.

So, again, what you've posted is clearly negated by real facts, and a continuing display of speaking about things you don't know about.

Further, you can't point to Judo and say that it's an example of classical Japanese Jujutsu in MMA. Just like you can't point to Sanshou and say that its an example of classical Kung fu in MMA.

Didn't I-and others-already do that? Clearly, then, we can-I mean, it's not as though we can't just because you say we can't, Hattori- we don't even know who you are.

Anyway, this discussion has run its course. Feel free to have the last word.

Oh, yeah, like I believe that one.

"THis discussion is over for me, go on and talk among yourselves," said no agenda-troll, ever

 

[Hanzou]

Don't expect you to show everything but whether you will admit it or not the fact remains what you showed as and stated is what you view as kung fu reveals You, Hanzou, the person have a very limit view of kung fu.
If I presented a few videos of someone slowly shadowboxing in a mirror working on form and presentation, then working on a speed bag, and finally working footwork drills in a ring working off ropes and in & out of the corner stating this is what I think of as Boxing I would be presenting a very limited view of boxing.

So would you consider Sanshou a traditional CMA style considering that it was first created in the 1920s, and is a combination of several KF styles, and western styles?

Now you bring an interesting point to view. Why has military Sanshou (original Sanshou) been maintained and Sport Sanshou has become an eclectic version? If MMA is the standard by which so many now espouse as being the best why is traditional kung fu within Sanshou still utilized by the military?

I would consider the military version eclectic as well. Just like the Russian art Sombo from which the Chinese first got the idea to create a modern military art for their troops.

 

[Hanzou]

And I'm pretty sure if asked, many here would agree with you that classical jujutsu, and many other styles are ill suited for MMA. But when you take classical jujutsu and adapt it to a competitive format, it magically transforms into judo. Same thing happens to classical cma... Voila! San shou.

The only classical JJJ fighter I'm aware of was a Ninjutsu practitioner in early UFC who got smashed in a matter of seconds. He certainly didn't resemble Ronda Rousey or Karo Parisyan.

Additionally, if someone is trained i a classical KF style, why would they say they're Sanshou when they're Traditional CMA? The few WC practitioners who have entered MMA (and got demolished) for example never stated they were Sanshou. They stated they were Wing Chun.

Dude, judo doesn't even look like judo in MMA.

I disagree;

UFC 168 Rousey 8211 Tate Judo Throw Highlights GIFs Art of Grappling

 

[elder999]

And I'm pretty sure if asked, many here would agree with you that classical jujutsu, and many other styles are ill suited for MMA.

I'd be among the first to agree with that.

But when you take classical jujutsu and adapt it to a competitive format, it magically transforms into judo. Same thing happens to classical cma... Voila! San shou.

Yeppers.

Dude, judo doesn't even look like judo in MMA. Bjj doesn't look the same in MMA. Every style must adapt and synthesize with others. Why the reluctance to accept that Kung fu is represented when the evidence is so clear?

Because some people are gonna "know" what they insist on knowing....whether it's true or not...

Note, too, that the one who gave up on this discussion, and ceded "the last word," has posted...........

I'd say, Steve, that when we've seen judo in MMA, it didn't always look like judo....sometimes, though, it does-just as a guy can wind up winning with a "showtime" kick, that looks like something from a movie...

 

[elder999]

The only classical JJJ fighter I'm aware of was a Ninjutsu practitioner in early UFC who got smashed in a matter of seconds. He certainly didn't resemble Ronda Rousey or Karo Parisyan.pling

Actually, there were two Robert Bussey students in the early UFCs. While they may have considered themeselves "ninjutsu practitioners," they really weren't. In any case, Steve Jennum won UFC 3 as an alternate. I think you're remembering Scott Morris, from UFC 2, who was a student of Robert Bussey's brother Michael, and I seem to remember him winning his first bout......

Of course, UFC 2 was probably televised after your bedtime, back in 1994...else., you'd remember it also featured 5 animals gung fu stylist Jason Deluca, and wing chun stylist David Levicki.....

 

[drop bear]

Don't expect you to show everything but whether you will admit it or not the fact remains what you showed as and stated is what you view as kung fu reveals You, Hanzou, the person have a very limit view of kung fu.
If I presented a few videos of someone slowly shadowboxing in a mirror working on form and presentation, then working on a speed bag, and finally working footwork drills in a ring working off ropes and in & out of the corner stating this is what I think of as Boxing I would be presenting a very limited view of boxing.




Now you bring an interesting point to view. Why has military Sanshou (original Sanshou) been maintained and Sport Sanshou has become an eclectic version? If MMA is the standard by which so many now espouse as being the best why is traditional kung fu within Sanshou still utilized by the military?

less injuries. And less importance on hand to hand because of the guns?

why the military does and does not choose style a for defence training is quite often complicated. And not a good test of the legitimacy of a martial art.

 

[tkdwarrior]

First off the UFC and MMA sold a myth. That grappling and not stand up fighting is more effective than the striking arts. Eventually the strikers evolved and learned to counter these grapplers. Now you see more knockouts from strikes more than you see losses due to submissions.

 

[Hanzou]

First off the UFC and MMA sold a myth. That grappling and not stand up fighting is more effective than the striking arts. Eventually the strikers evolved and learned to counter these grapplers. Now you see more knockouts from strikes more than you see losses due to submissions.

Strikers "evolved" by learning grappling, specifically Bjj. You can take a variety of striking arts and be effective, but all MMA fighters pretty much learn Bjj before they step into the cage. So I'm hesitant to call what the Gracies claimed to be a myth. If it is, then its a myth that's held up by quite a bit of fact and 2 decades of MMA competition.

 

[Steve]

First off the UFC and MMA sold a myth. That grappling and not stand up fighting is more effective than the striking arts. Eventually the strikers evolved and learned to counter these grapplers. Now you see more knockouts from strikes more than you see losses due to submissions.

I think we need to be careful with this, too. Striking is encouraged in the ufc, and rules are in place that favor the striker. Yet we still see submissions about once out of every three bouts, on average. That's still very common.

Also, the strikers learned grappling, and there are now, appropriately, no pure stylists any more. While each athlete has areas of strength and weakness, they are all well rounded. This is particularly true at the elite level. They're all competent strikers and grapplers.

 

[Danny T]

less injuries. And less importance on hand to hand because of the guns?

why the military does and does not choose style a for defence training is quite often complicated. And not a good test of the legitimacy of a martial art.

Can't realistically grapple or go one on one against multiple opponents with a combat pack on your back. So for reality of combat it is a very low level option. Funny thing is the US military has a very strong grappling/mma aspect. I train some units several times a year and actually watch many immediately wanting to tackle and go to the ground because of their training in the military mma combatives program.

 

[Danny T]

So would you consider Sanshou a traditional CMA style considering that it was first created in the 1920s, and is a combination of several KF styles, and western styles?

Why are you deflecting?

Let's define traditional first.
: a way of thinking, behaving, or doing something that has been used by people in a particular group, family, society, etc., for a long time
: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted though not necessarily verifiable
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

Good question. Can Sanshou be considered traditional?

(maybe a long time needs to be defined also. Is it within a year or two, a decade or two, one's lifetime or is it a greater period?)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So would you consider Sanshou a traditional CMA style ...?

Sanda/Sanshou is a Chinese MMA without the ground game. When you train Sanda/Sanshou, you "don't care about" the individual CMA styles.

In the following clips, you don't know what style that they may train.

 

[Hanzou]

Good question. Can Sanshou be considered traditional?

I wouldn't.

 

[Danny T]

I wouldn't.

???
Based upon what definition?

 

[tkdwarrior]

As I said the strikers learned. They learned to grapple, wrestle or whatever and they learned how to defend against these types of attacks and developed tactics and strategies to counter these types of attacks thereby increasing their chances of winning matches.

 

[elder999]

Strikers "evolved" by learning grappling, specifically Bjj. You can take a variety of striking arts and be effective, but all MMA fighters pretty much learn Bjj before they step into the cage.

BJJ? Or American JJ? Or Japanese JJ? Or some other form of grappling? Or maybe they pick it up along the way? I mean, where's your statistical support. Let's take a look at some of the top ranked people's backgrounds, shall we?


1. Cain Velasquez (13-1)
2x NCAA Division 1 All-American wrestler in folkstyle. Junior National champion in freestyle, 3rd place in Greco. Placed at senior nationals in Freestyle.

2. Junior dos Santos (16-3)
Started BJJ at 21. After 6 months of BJJ he started training MMA/boxing under his head trainer who has a background in boxing.

3. Fabricio Werdum (18-5-1)
BJJ World Champion, ADCC champion, blackbelt in BJJ and Judo.

4. Antonio Silva (18-5, 1 NC)
Trained Karate for 13 years before starting BJJ. Blackbelt in Judo and BJJ.

5. Travis Browne (16-2-1)
Started with Muay Thai. Former basketball player.

6. Josh Barnett (33-7)
High school folkstyle wrestler and later a catch wrestler. Awarded a BJJ black belt with 0 gi training. No-Gi World Champion at black belt and defeated Otavio Souza (a black belt world champion) by submission in a gi.

7. Alistair Overeem (37-13, 1 NC)
Started with no-gi grappling before kickboxing and MMA.

8. Stipe Miocic (11-1)
Folkstyle wrestler at the Division 1 level at Cleveland State. Also a star baseball player.

9. Mark Hunt (9-8-1)
Kickboxer.

10. Roy Nelson (20-9)
Wrestled folkstyle in high school before starting Kung Fu and later BJJ. BJJ black belt.

---------------------------

1. Jon Jones (20-1)
NJCAA national champion in folkstyle wrestling. 5th place in nationals for Greco at the Cadet (age 16) age level.

2. Alexander Gustafsson (16-2)
Amateur boxer since age 10. Swedish Boxing champion.

3. Rashad Evans (19-3-1)
NJCAA champion, NCAA D1 folkstyle college wrestler. BJJ blackbelt.

4. Glover Teixeira (22-3)
Started with Boxing and Track before BJJ/MMA. BJJ blackbelt.

5. Anthony Johnson (17-4)
NJCAA Champion in folkstyle.

6. Dan Henderson (30-11)
Division 1 Folkstyle wrestler and multiple time Greco Roman national champion, Pan American Games Champion, Olympian.

7. Phil Davis (12-2, 1 NC)
4x NCAA Division 1 All American and 1x National Champion in Folkstyle wrestling. Nogi BJJ world champ at blue belt.

8. Ryan Bader (16-4)
2x NCAA Division 1 All-American in Folkstyle wrestling.

9. Emanuel Newton (23-7-1)
High school folkstyle wrestler.

10. Chael Sonnen (28-14-1)
NCAA Division 1 All-American in folkstyle. Silver medalist at University Worlds for Greco. University Nationals freestyle runner up.

--------------------

1. Chris Weidman (11-0)
2x NJCAA All-American and 2x NCAA Division 1 All-American in folkstyle wrestling. Attempted to make the Olympic team in Freestyle wrestling. ADCC competitor.

2. Anderson Silva (33-6)
Started training at age 12 in Taekwondo. TKD black belt, Muay Thai 'black belt', BJJ blackbelt, Judo blackbelt. Some professional boxing and muay thai experience.

3. Vitor Belfort (24-10)
Originally billed as Vitor Gracie, BJJ blackbelt and ADCC bronze medalist. 1 Pro boxing fight.

4. Ronaldo Souza (20-3, 1 NC)
Started with Judo. BJJ and Judo blackbelt, multiple time BJJ world champion, ADCC champion.

5. Lyoto Machida (21-4)
Shotokan Karate background with competitive Sumo wrestling experience. BJJ black belt.

6. Luke Rockhold (12-2)
High school folkstyle wrestler with some junior college wrestling experience. BJJ world champion at blue/purple. BJJ black belt. High level surfer.

7. Tim Kennedy (18-4)
High school folkstyle wrestling background. Black belt in Japanese Ju Jitsu and Army Combatives.

8. Yushin Okami (30-8)
Judo blackbelt.

9. Michael Bisping (24-6)
Japanese Ju Jitsu and kickboxing background.

10. Mark Munoz (13-4)
2x NCAA Division 1 All-American and 1x Champion in folkstyle wrestling. Junior World Freestyle silver medalist.

---------

1. Johny Hendricks (16-2)
4x NCAA D1 All-American, 2x Champ in folkstyle wrestling. 2x Junior National Freestyle champ.

2. Robbie Lawler (22-10, 1 NC)
High school folkstyle wrestling background.

3. Tyron Woodley (13-2)
2x NCAA D1 All-American in folkstyle wrestling. Runner up for freestyle wrestling at University Nationals. BJJ Brown Belt.

4. Carlos Condit (29-8)
Started MMA at 15. BJJ black belt.

5. Hector Lombard (34-4-1, 1 NC)
Olympian and multiple time national champion in Judo for Cuba. BJJ blackbelt.

6. Rory MacDonald (16-2)
Started MMA as a teenager. "No Gi" BJJ Blackbelt under Toshido gym.

7. Ben Askren (12-0)
4x NCAA D1 All-American, 4x Finalist, 2x Champion in folkstyle wrestling. National champion, Pan Ams Champion and Olympian in Freestyle wrestling. ADCC competitor and BJJ borwn belt.

8. Jake Shields (29-7-1, 1 NC)
2x Junior College All-American in folkstyle wrestling. Division 2 college wrestler. ADCC bronze medalist and Pan Ams champion (Purple Belt, Gi) despite never training in a gi. BJJ black belt.

9. Demian Maia (18-5)
Did Judo, Kung Fu, and Karate as a child. BJJ black belt and world champion. ADCC champion.

10. Jake Ellenberger (29-7)
High school swimmer, no high school wrestling. Started folkstyle wrestling in college at the division 2 level.

---------

1. Anthony Pettis (17-2)
Taekwondo background. TKD black belt and BJJ purple belt.

2. Benson Henderson (20-2)
2x NAIA All-American in folkstyle college wrestling. TKD and BJJ black belt. 3rd place in World Championships (Gi, Brown Belt) for BJJ.

3. Gilbert Melendez (21-3)
Division 2 folkstyle college wrestler. BJJ blackbelt, does not train in a gi.

4. T.J. Grant (21-5)
High school freestyle wrestling background (Canada, not US). BJJ brown belt.

5. Eddie Alvarez (25-3)
High school 'prep' All-American in folkstyle wrestling.

6. Michael Chandler (12-1)
NCAA D1 All-American in folkstyle college wrestling.

7. Josh Thomson (20-6, 1 NC)
Junior College folkstyle wrestler. Blackbelt in Guerilla Jiu Jitsu (Camarillo BJJ/Judo).

8. Khabib Nurmagomedov (22-0)
Started with Freestyle wrestling for 5 years before switching to Judo after "poor results" in wrestling. International Master of Sports in Sambo, Black Belt in Judo, International Master of Sports in Pankration, International Master of Sports in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

9. Nate Diaz (17-9)
BJJ black belt. Has a personal Sambo coach and a personal Boxing coach.

10. Rafael dos Anjos (20-6)
BJJ black belt. Purple Belt world champ.

-------------

1. Jose Aldo (24-1)
Started with capoeira. BJJ black belt. World Cup champion at brown belt.

2. Chad Mendes (16-1)
2x NCAA D1 All-American folkstyle college wrestler, 1x runner up.

3. Ricardo Lamas (13-3)
NCAA D3 All-American folkstyle college wrestler.

4. Cub Swanson (20-5)
Started with BJJ before MMA. BJJ black belt.

5. Frankie Edgar (16-4-1)
NCAA D1 All-American folkstyle college wrestler. BJJ black belt.

6. Jeremy Stephens (23-9)
High school folkstyle wrestler. BJJ black belt.

7. Nik Lentz (24-6-2, 1 NC)
NCAA D1 folkstyle college wrestler. BJJ purple belt.

8. Chan Sung Jung (13-4)
Started Hapkido (a hybrid of TKD and Judo) as a child. Black belt in Hapkido, Black belt in Taekwondo, Green belt in Judo, Blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

9. Dustin Poirier (16-3)
Started with boxing and MMA. BJJ Brown belt.

10. Pat Curran (20-5)
High school folkstyle wrestling background.

----------


1. Renan Barao (32-1, 1 NC)
Father was a boxer and Barao started boxing as a child. Started BJJ at 14. BJJ black belt.

2. Urijah Faber (30-7)
NCAA D1 folkstyle college wrestler. BJJ Brown belt.

3. Michael McDonald (16-3)
Started kickboxing at age 10. BJJ Brown Belt.

4. Eddie Wineland (21-9-1)
High school folkstyle wrestling background. BJJ blue belt.

5. Raphael Assuncao (22-4)
BJJ blackbelt. Shotokan Karate background.

6. Eduardo Dantas (16-3)
MMA, "prefers striking"

7. T.J. Dillashaw (9-2)
NCAA D1 folkstyle college wrestler.

8. Marlon Moraes (13-4)
Started Muay Thai at age 7. National level Muay Thai fighter. BJJ brown belt.

9. Takeya Mizugaki (19-7-2)
Judo background. Started MMA after high school.

10. Iuri Alcantara (29-5, 1 NC)
"Marajoara Luta" folk wrestling background. It is a type of native folk wrestling where Alcantara grew up. BJJ black belt.

--------

1. Demetrious Johnson (19-2-1)
High school folkstyle wrestler.

2. Joseph Benavidez (20-4)
NAIA folkstyle college wrestler.

3. John Dodson (15-6)
High school folkstyle wrestler.

4. Ali Bagautinov (13-2)
International Master of Sports in Sambo, Master of Sports in Freestyle Wrestling, International Master of Sports in Pankration, Master of Sports in Hand-to-hand combat, Master of Sports in Greco-Roman Wrestling. Combat Sambo World Champion. Russian Champion for BJJ and Grappling and Pankration.

5. Ian McCall (12-4-1)
Junior college folkstyle wrestler.

6. Zach Makovsky (18-4)
NCAA D1 college folkstyle wrestler.

7. Jussier da Silva (16-3)
Started Judo at age 8. Judo and BJJ blackbelt.

8. John Lineker (23-7)
Started with MMA and Boxing.

9. John Moraga (14-2)
NCAA D1 college folkstyle wrestler. University freestyle wrestling champion.

10. Justin Scoggins (9-0)
Started Karate at age 3. Blackbelt in Kenpo Karate.

So, break it down, and it looks like...

Fighters who started their training in BJJ:
Junior dos Santos, Werdum, Belfort, dos Anjos, Swanson, Nate Diaz, Assuncao (?? it isn't clear from his wikipedia/UFC page/interviews)

6/80 = 7.5%

Fighters whose MMA games seem to be very BJJ based:
Fabricio Werdum, Rafael dos Anjos, Raphael Assuncao, Demian Maia, Iuri Alcantara, John Lineker, Renan Barao, Nate Diaz, Souza

9/10 = 11.25%

Fighters with a catch or folkstyle wrestling base:
Velasquez, Barnett, Miocic, Nelson, Jones, Evans, Johnson, Henderson, Davis, Bader, Newton, Sonnen, Weidman, Rockhold, Kennedy, Munoz, Hendricks, Lawler, Woodley, Askren, Shields, Ellenberger, Henderson, Melendez, Alvarez, Chandler, Thomson, Mendes, Lamas, Edgar, Stephens, Lentz, Curran, Faber, Wineland, Dillashaw, Johnson, Benavidez, Dodson, McCall, Makovsky, Moraga

42/80 = 52.5%

Fighters with some some sort of standup grappling base (catch, freestyle, judo, sambo):
Velasquez, Barnett, Miocic, Nelson, Jones, Evans, Johnson, Henderson, Davis, Bader, Newton, Sonnen, Weidman, Rockhold, Kennedy, Munoz, Hendricks, Lawler, Woodley, Askren, Shields, Ellenberger, Henderson, Melendez, Alvarez, Chandler, Thomson, Mendes, Lamas, Edgar, Stephens, Lentz, Curran, Faber, Wineland, Dillashaw, Johnson, Benavidez, Dodson, McCall, Makovsky, Moraga, Baguatinov, Alcantara, Mizugaki, Nurmagomedov, Grant, Maia, Lombard, Okami, Souza

51/80 = 63.75%

You can say what you want about statistics, but math doesn't lie.....on the other hand, it seems that every time you set your fingers to the keyboard, Hanzou (yeah, I'm talkin' to you!) something less than true winds up on our screens....I'm not calling you a liar, or anything else-but there is a word for someone who says things they believe to be true that clearly are not.....

 

[ballen0351]

Game set match. That's all folks thanks for playing