UFC proves KF useless

[elder999]

An irrelevant argument, because at this point the influence of western boxing and Muay Thai on modern Sanshou is pretty obvious.

No, it isn't "obvious" at all-they may or may not be, as individuals or teams, utilizing some western boxing or Muay Thai methodology, but-unless you watch them train-you really can't tell from the fights, anyway: they may be training in wing chun for their "boxing," and grappling. Or tai chi for both Or some shuai chao and some Fukien style (that looks a lot like that kurotty stuff... )

A person praciticing Sanshou today is practicing Sanshou under the influence of those outside influences.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't-one could argue that person practicing any martial art today is practicing under the influence of outside arts:the conditioning methods of western boxing are excellent for all forms of sport-combat, and all it would take for some (like you!) is to see a jump rope and say, Ooh,ooh, oohh, western boxing!

This is compounded on the fact that Sanshou isn't traditional CMA in the first place, which is the point of the OP.

Didn't see anything I'd remember in the OP about Sanshou-of course, that was eight years ago, so maybe I should take another look.


.

Sanshou is clearly a modern sport form of CMAs, just like Judo is a modern sport form of traditional Jujutsu.

And because it's a "modern sport form of" Chinese Martial Arts, it has to be influenced by Muay Thai and western boxing????

Rii-iiight,,,,

 

[drop bear]

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but Chinese kickboxing could mean anything. It's a generic term.

And every MMAist trains in multiple arts in order to be competitive in the cage. Why would Kung fu be different?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

how would you present to a mma club it works?

ok say you are a gun bjjer. You walk into a mma club and tell them how good you are.

the first thing they are going to ask is to show them. Now you can qualify with a specific skill set. So you would probably roll submit everybody and from then on your bjj would become a basic part of their mma.

from a specific example Wayne parr sparrs stand up with gsp. Not because his mma is great. But his muay Thai is.

 

[Hanzou]

No, it isn't "obvious" at all-they may or may not be, as individuals or teams, utilizing some western boxing or Muay Thai methodology, but-unless you watch them train-you really can't tell from the fights, anyway: they may be training in wing chun for their "boxing," and grappling. Or tai chi for both Or some shuai chao and some Fukien style (that looks a lot like that kurotty stuff...

Do I really need to watch them training when the finished product looks almost exactly like other kickboxing styles while traditional CMA looks highly distinct from any other MA forms in the world?

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't-one could argue that person practicing any martial art today is practicing under the influence of outside arts:the conditioning methods of western boxing are excellent for all forms of sport-combat, and all it would take for some (like you!) is to see a jump rope and say, Ooh,ooh, oohh, western boxing!

And because it's a "modern sport form of" Chinese Martial Arts, it has to be influenced by Muay Thai and western boxing????

Rii-iiight,,,,

Traditional arts tend to avoid influence from outside styles. That's the difference. Sanshou is essentially a modern eclectic fighting style. Mantis Kung Fu isn't under the influence of western boxing, and other modern, competing styles, yet Sanshou clearly is. Why? Because Sanshou exponents have to fight against western boxing and other forms of kickboxing, thus they all rub off on each other. It's no different than Wrestling's influence on Judo and later Bjj, and is a big reason those two modern arts are very different than their parent styles within traditional Japanese Jujutsu.

 

[Flying Crane]

Traditional arts tend to avoid influence from outside styles.

You know this for a fact? More silly stuff, sir.

 

[Hanzou]

You know this for a fact? More silly stuff, sir.

I said tend to, not always.

 

[Vajramusti]

A silly thread. Merry Christmas.

 

[elder999]

Do I really need to watch them training when the finished product looks almost exactly like other kickboxing styles while traditional CMA looks highly distinct from any other MA forms in the world?

Yes, Hattori, apparently, you do

Traditional arts tend to avoid influence from outside styles. That's the difference.

No, "traditional arts" tend to be born from outside styles, or combinations of outside styles, or started by someone from another style, back when they were contemporary (modern) arts-and the trend tends to continue. Historically, pakua and hsing I chuan are taught together, and often enough with tai chi and shuai chao included in the mix-in fact, most of shuai chao can be found in tai chi-did you know tai chi has grappling? No, really-it does, and it's there for everyone who has eyes to see it.

Sanshou is essentially a modern eclectic fighting style.

Sanshou as you understand it is, perhaps, but it grew out of a long tradition of free-fighting on the lai tei that included weapons, duels, and the more than occasional death.

Mantis Kung Fu isn't under the influence of western boxing, and other modern, competing styles, yet Sanshou clearly is.

It's only clear to you

Why?

Because you keep insisting on maintaining knowledge of something you apparently know nothing about?

Because Sanshou exponents have to fight against western boxing and other forms of kickboxing, thus they all rub off on each other.

If that's happened, it didn't happen until the 80's or 90's, more than 50 years after the development of "modern" sanshou.

It's no different than Wrestling's influence on Judo and later Bjj, and is a big reason those two modern arts are very different than their parent styles within traditional Japanese Jujutsu.

In spite of what Dr. Kano wrote about kata guruma, there's some doubt about "wrestling's influence on judo," given that the technique already existed in tenshin shinyo ryu , which Kano studied for quite some time before formulating judo-in fact, one of the stories, likely false, is that he got kata garuma from a book on western wrestling, and used it do defeat one of his seniors. Kata guruma, of course, is not banned, but grabbing the leg is, so the technique is rarely seen in competitive judo, which is, from what I've seen, the only kind you believe to exist....

 

[Hanzou]

No, "traditional arts" tend to be born from outside styles, or combinations of outside styles, or started by someone from another style, back when they were contemporary (modern) arts-and the trend tends to continue. Historically, pakua and hsing I chuan are taught together, and often enough with tai chi and shuai chao included in the mix-in fact, most of shuai chao can be found in tai chi-did you know tai chi has grappling?

When I say outside styles, I'm talking about styles outside their country of origin. I.e. Western wrestling influencing Japanese Judo. Western Boxing influencing Asian kickboxing styles.

Sanshou as you understand it is, perhaps, but it grew out of a long tradition of free-fighting on the lai tei that included weapons, duels, and the more than occasional death.

Which is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. What Sanshou emerged from matters little to what it is now, or why someone going into MMA would train in it over traditional CMA.

Because you keep insisting on maintaining knowledge of something you apparently know nothing about?

You clearly missed the context of "why" in that statement.

If that's happened, it didn't happen until the 80's or 90's, more than 50 years after the development of "modern" sanshou.

Which is exactly what we're talking about, since the MMA fighters in question are in their 20s and 30s.

In spite of what Dr. Kano wrote about kata garuma, there's some doubt about "wrestling's influence on judo," given that the technique already existed in tenshin shinyo ryu , which Kano studied for quite some time before formulating judo-in fact, one of the stories, likely false, is that he got kata garuma from a book on western wrestling, and used it do defeat one of his seniors. Kata garuma, of course, is not banned, but grabbing the leg is, so the technique is rarely seen in competitive judo, which is, from what I've seen, the only kind you believe to exist....

So we're even going to doubt Kano himself when he says that the style HE created was influenced by western wrestling?

Wow.

 

[Flying Crane]

I said tend to, not always.

You believe that too?

 

[Danny T]

Actually, I have a very expansive view of Kung fu. Sanshou which clearly incorporates modern boxing, and several techniques from Muay Thai kickboxing is definitely not traditional CMA. When people wonder why KF isn't in MMA, they're not thinking of kickboxing, their thinking of traditional Kung Fu.

And the videos you showed as being what you think of as being Kung Fu are but a 'very limited view of Kung Fu'. There is far more to KF than what you showed.

As to Sanshou many of the participants of sanshou competitions have added boxing, muay thai, shooto, and even bjj to their skill sets. Sanshou is composed of Chinese kung fu martial arts applications including most aspects of combat including striking and grappling and was used by the Kuomintang (the military) at the first modern military academy in the 1920s; later it was also adopted as a method by the People's liberation Army of China. Sanshou was an unrestricted bareknuckle martial training system with no rules. As sanshou has grown into having a competitive sport aspect, many fighters now also compete in non-Chinese or mixed combat sports, including Boxing, Kickboxing, Shooto wrestling, wrestling, judo, bjj, and Mixed Martial Arts and tactics from those competitions are now utilized by many sport fighters within sanshou. The military version of sanshou has a more define curriculum and methodology based upon their intense study of traditional martial arts such as traditional Kung Fu, Shuai Jiao & Chin Na.

 

[elder999]

So we're even going to doubt Kano himself when he says that the style HE created was influenced by western wrestling?

Wow.

Not really. The story goes that Kano couldn't defeat one man at the tenshin shinyo ryu dojo he was studying at-apparently, he was quite large for a Japanese. Kano consulted a sumo wrestler, several other people, and found a technique in a book on western wrestling he thought might work, the fireman's carry. The fact that similar techniques existed-independent of "outside influence"(see previous post in re: human articulation and technique development)-in medieval European martial arts, Indian martial arts, sumo,. as well as several Japanese koryu jujutsu ryuha, including tenshin shinyo ryu, the very style Kano was studying doesn't make the story doubtful-but it does make the "influence" doubtful, and it is, as far as I can recall, the only place where he makes any mention of western wrestling prior to the development of judo. Later on, of course, as it became a sport, western wrestling had an influence on judo, especially (as I've said elsewhere) in the development of weight classes-these were, of course, post WWII developments-though, perhaps, he knew something of scholastic wrestling as an educator, and modeled some of judos structure on this-who can say? He certainly didn't-in fact, while he studied western wrestling and boxing, he made some rather negative comments on the (later) influence of western wrestling on judo randori...

 

[Flying Crane]

When I say outside styles, I'm talking about styles outside their country of origin. I.e. Western wrestling influencing Japanese Judo.

So?

 

[clfsean]

I don't know much about the guy in the video but it's common for TMAers to scoff at practitioners that try to liven up a dead art. I'm not necessarily saying that's what's happening here but I've seen it other systems like wc. A guy starts working the traditional techniques with a resisting partner, it's not Immediately impressive to fighters outside the traditional community because what the traditionalist is doing lacks the refinement of generations of application. It just looks like a sloppy unorthodox kickboxing style. On top of that the other traditionalists within the forward thinking guys system deride the guy and label him as unauthentic and stick with their dead patterns. Rather than challenge or show that their "authentic" style is superior they continue doing things the same old way. It would be good for those within the traditional community to prove their art's relevance to modern fighting. Even if some of the traditional stuff applied to a kickboxing or boxing format looks sloppy multiple schools within a system should be able to refine the style to accomodate the kb format over time.

No sorry. There's a whole soap opera around Jake Mace & for the record, he's NOT TCMA by any definition.

 

[clfsean]

*sigh*

Sanda is to CMA what Randori is to JJJ.

 

[elder999]

No sorry. There's a whole soap opera around Jake Mace & for the record, he's NOT TCMA by any definition.

Wasn't he a student of this wanker?

Ran into a few of this lot when I first got to New Mexico...hehe....

 

[clfsean]

Elder wins the internets!

 

[elder999]

Elder wins the internets!

Nah. They had-or used to have-a school in Albuquerque, and we came across each other in a park my second summer in New Mexico, I think in '94, anyway, when I was a much less temperate man in my 30's......then I ran across some of the same people from another school in Denver.....in 2007.....they had some idea of who I was, and they introduced themselves, told me where their school was in Denver and asked me to leave them alone!! (Actually, they said something like, You're not planning on visiting our school, are you? Because you don't have to do that! nice people..... with no root [URL='http://www.sherv.net/'] no power no real speed

no balance and no fighting ability beyond delusions of competence )[/URL]

 

[tshadowchaser]

please tell me those 2 in the last segment of the last video where not wearing black belts.
I'm reading the Shao-lin and seeing the title grandmaster tell me there is o connection to anything remotely connected to the people in China

 

[elder999]

please tell me those 2 in the last segment of the last video where not wearing black belts.
I'm reading the Shao-lin and seeing the title grandmaster tell me there is o connection to anything remotely connected to the people in China

There is next to no connection to anything remotely connected to the people in China.

Sin Kwang The has admitted in court that he made the whole thing up from books that he read.Made him a fine bucket of money and a herd of Kool-Aid drinkers as well....

 

[Hanzou]

And the videos you showed as being what you think of as being Kung Fu are but a 'very limited view of Kung Fu'. There is far more to KF than what you showed.

I showed traditional Kung Fu styles. Clearly there's no way for me to show all of them. The OP is talking about traditional CMA, not modern eclectic styles like Sanshou.

As to Sanshou many of the participants of sanshou competitions have added boxing, muay thai, shooto, and even bjj to their skill sets. Sanshou is composed of Chinese kung fu martial arts applications including most aspects of combat including striking and grappling and was used by the Kuomintang (the military) at the first modern military academy in the 1920s; later it was also adopted as a method by the People's liberation Army of China. Sanshou was an unrestricted bareknuckle martial training system with no rules. As sanshou has grown into having a competitive sport aspect, many fighters now also compete in non-Chinese or mixed combat sports, including Boxing, Kickboxing, Shooto wrestling, wrestling, judo, bjj, and Mixed Martial Arts and tactics from those competitions are now utilized by many sport fighters within sanshou. The military version of sanshou has a more define curriculum and methodology based upon their intense study of traditional martial arts such as traditional Kung Fu, Shuai Jiao & Chin Na.

That's great, but I seriously doubt those MMA fighters are practicing military Sanshou, and even if they were, that isn't the style the OP is talking about when they're discussing the lack of Kung Fu in MMA.