UFC & PRIDE What is your opinion?

[Chicago Green Dragon]

The fights i was refering to are not legal and big time against the law

As for money i dont think any amount is worth it if you can and a big chance of loosing your life.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

I believe that Jason mentioned something about brawlers in one of his posts. A few things to look at here. First, the UFC as well as the other MMA events out there are santioned events. Are you saying that the so called "underground" events are legal? I dont think so. If thats the case, then why are they "underground"? Seems to me that there must be something to hide. Second, if these guys had so much skill, then why not fight in the UFC or the other sanctioned events? You cant possibly tell me that the underground fights offer more money then the legit ones. Third, you need to know what you're doing when you judge and fight in these events. I give alot of credit to 'Big John' McCarthy for the excellent job that he does in the ring.

I'm puzzled by your statement. If someone had the chance to make it to pro basketball, pro football, baseball or any other sport, then why not go for it? Thats like saying that Shaq should just play for fun in his backyard, even though he has the skill to play pro!

Mike

 

[MJS]

ok no prablamo

I have had some of my friends who were able to get into some of these matches where people paid large purses for anything goes fighting. One in particular that comes to mind happend in new york a while ago. It was held in a manhatten building and opened to a select group.
Two men came out to fight, 10 seconds later one guy hit the other guy in the throat killing him and the fight was over. The guy that won was someone who trained 7 days a week from what i heard.
My buddy watched this guy during this fight and couldnt believe what happend but this was how many of those fights he had the chance to go to ended up.

All I am saying is there are also underground matches.

I have the highest respect for the pro fighters in their circuits and i also respect the dedication they put into their art or craft.

I do not advocate or like the underground matches because i think that kind of fighting is insane in my opinion but it does happen.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Sooooo...it just goes to prove my point. The underground fights are showcasing guys that have no skill, only certain people can come and if you enter, you just might get killed!!! Come on pal. Walking around saying that you killed someone is something to brag about??? Yeah, ok!!!! Gee, maybe thats why those events are not legal.

Mike

 

[Black Bear]

I know of an underground prizefight ring in my town. I never went, but I doubt the calibre is anything to write home about, certainly not at the level of even a regional MMA tourney.

I learned a lot from UFC's. Heck, before them, MOST of us believed that ground grappling was a mess to avoid. Come on, let's be honest. Who here would have never learned to grapple if it weren't for UFC's? I'm one.

That said, I'm not a spectator sports fan and I don't really watch them all that much except when prompted to watch a specific fight or event for instructional purposes.

 

[MJS]

The fights i was refering to are not legal and big time against the law

As for money i dont think any amount is worth it if you can and a big chance of loosing your life.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Then if thats the case, why would ANYONE with an ounce of brains, and if they had the skill to compete in MMA, want to risk getting killed in an illegal event, when they can make more money, get more recognition, from fighting in a legal event??

Mike

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Mike

I dont think anybody in their right mind ever goes about bragging about killing someone. But I do think people in that arena are known by their reputation and what they have done.
There are some people who choose to fight in those illegal areas.

All I was saying is there are events like that too.

As for skill what eva you say.................

I am not going to comment on anyones skills being bad or anything like that
I'll leave that up to you.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Sooooo...it just goes to prove my point. The underground fights are showcasing guys that have no skill, only certain people can come and if you enter, you just might get killed!!! Come on pal. Walking around saying that you killed someone is something to brag about??? Yeah, ok!!!! Gee, maybe thats why those events are not legal.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I know of an underground prizefight ring in my town. I never went, but I doubt the calibre is anything to write home about, certainly not at the level of even a regional MMA tourney.

I dont think it was anything to write home about either!!

I learned a lot from UFC's. Heck, before them, MOST of us believed that ground grappling was a mess to avoid. Come on, let's be honest. Who here would have never learned to grapple if it weren't for UFC's? I'm one.

And I'm another one! The UFC opened my eyes to what else is out there!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I have had some of my friends who were able to get into some of these matches where people paid large purses for anything goes fighting. One in particular that comes to mind happend in new york a while ago. It was held in a manhatten building and opened to a select group.
Two men came out to fight, 10 seconds later one guy hit the other guy in the throat killing him and the fight was over. The guy that won was someone who trained 7 days a week from what i heard.
My buddy watched this guy during this fight and couldnt believe what happend but this was how many of those fights he had the chance to go to ended up.

Bull sheeeeeeeet!

 

[Jason Davis]

Well, Jason and Chicago Green Dragon...

Those are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on an internet martial arts forum.

First: Now that there are rules to protect the fighters, it's not called "No Holds Barred". It's now called "Mixed Martial Arts" or "MMA" for short.

Second: Of course there are lots of rules. But, there is no one-on-one competition that allows a greater variety of techniques than Pride or UFC.

Third: Have you ever trained with or fought someone who fights in Pride, the UFC, Shooto, King of the Cage, or any of the others? If not, then you don't know what you are talking about. All but the worst of these guys train full contact against boxers, kick boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, Jiu Jitsu fighters, and submission wrestlers. They learn to fight hard standing, clinching, and on the ground. You think these guys can't hit hard? Two words for you guys: Cro Cop! Two more words: Chuck Liddell. I train at a school run by a guy who is undefeated in EFC and Pride. There are other guys there who fight MMA. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience and I have never met better conditioned, more versatile, more deadly fighters in my life.

Fourth: Who are these "real street fighters" and where are these "real underground matches" where Pride and UFC fighters would get whooped. Are these real street fighters better trained than professional MMA fighters? Do they have more endurance? Do they have a larger repertoire of techniques than the pros? Do they hit harder? No. They are not, do not, do not, and do not. The fact is they are the fighters who are not smart enough, disciplined enough, tough enough, or good enough to fight professionally.

Fifth: Where do you think Pro MMA guys come from? Do you think none of them have ever been in a street fight? Do you think that just because they train for professional fights to take place in a ring or cage that they can't pick up a club or a bottle or a knife or a gun?

Now that I am done, you guys should just go back to your mats and practice yoiur deadly kata techniques in the air.

Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

But I never said any of these guys weren’t skilled at what they do so maybe you should re-read what I wrote.

As far as “real street fighters” goes what exactly is a real street fighter? What is a fake street fighter?

As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter. just an FYI for anyone who cares

 

[Makalakumu]

Do you think it is okay to compare the run of the mill martial artist to the profession UFC bunch? I play baseball and hockey, but the big dogs would kick my butt no matter how much I practiced.

 

[MJS]

Mike

I dont think anybody in their right mind ever goes about bragging about killing someone. But I do think people in that arena are known by their reputation and what they have done.
There are some people who choose to fight in those illegal areas.

All I was saying is there are events like that too.

As for skill what eva you say.................

I am not going to comment on anyones skills being bad or anything like that
I'll leave that up to you.

Chicago Green Dragon

Again, as I've said, walking around, letting people know that you've killed someone is NOT something to be proud of. As for the skill, if you think that is what it means to have skill, well.........but it isnt. I'd like to see one of these so called "tough guys" fight someone like Rickson Gracie. I'll let you decide who has the skill there. We're all entitled to our opinion, and IMO, very few if any at all of the "underground" guys have any skill.

Mike

 

[Jason Davis]

oh yeah one more thing, how did this get turned into a discussion about who could kick whos A**? just curious.

 

[MJS]

Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

Dude- These guys train boxing like crazy, what are you talking about???

As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

Training in any art is better than nothing. However, I have to disagree STRONGLY with your comment saying that it makes no difference, because it does. Some arts are going to give you better results than others and that is a fact. As for the strongest man show....size isnt everything. I'd bet that a guy with 1yr of BJJ would have no problem defeating one of those guys. Its the tech. that matters, not so much the size.

As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

Sure, what kind of cookie os your fav?? Just kidding!LOL! What you seem to be forgetting is that just like the average person works from 9-5, these MMA fighters train for hours on end...that is their job. Do you think that Mike Tyson got where he was by sitting on his *** and not training? He busted his *** training all the time.

As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Yup, thats true. But to think that you'll never get taken down...well, thats a HUGE mistake IMO. At least having the knowledge to get back up or how to prevent getting taken down would be a plus. The thing that most stand up guys forget, is that fact that they have to get close for the strikes to work. And THAT is what the grappler is waiting for. As soon as they are within arms reach, the stand up guy just jumped into the pool. My advice: He better know how to swim!!!!!!

Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Kata isnt gonna teach you how to fight my friend. And fighting in MMA is not a requirement to know how to fight. But, training with some realism, resistance and alivness....well, that is what matters!!

Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Hey, no problem. Anytime

Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter. just an FYI for anyone who cares

And so does Kenpo. But if ya want to learn to grapple, ya gotta train with a grappler.

Mike

 

[Jason Davis]

Dude- These guys train boxing like crazy, what are you talking about???



Training in any art is better than nothing. However, I have to disagree STRONGLY with your comment saying that it makes no difference, because it does. Some arts are going to give you better results than others and that is a fact. As for the strongest man show....size isnt everything. I'd bet that a guy with 1yr of BJJ would have no problem defeating one of those guys. Its the tech. that matters, not so much the size.



Sure, what kind of cookie os your fav?? Just kidding!LOL! What you seem to be forgetting is that just like the average person works from 9-5, these MMA fighters train for hours on end...that is their job. Do you think that Mike Tyson got where he was by sitting on his *** and not training? He busted his *** training all the time.



Yup, thats true. But to think that you'll never get taken down...well, thats a HUGE mistake IMO. At least having the knowledge to get back up or how to prevent getting taken down would be a plus. The thing that most stand up guys forget, is that fact that they have to get close for the strikes to work. And THAT is what the grappler is waiting for. As soon as they are within arms reach, the stand up guy just jumped into the pool. My advice: He better know how to swim!!!!!!



Kata isnt gonna teach you how to fight my friend. And fighting in MMA is not a requirement to know how to fight. But, training with some realism, resistance and alivness....well, that is what matters!!



Hey, no problem. Anytime



And so does Kenpo. But if ya want to learn to grapple, ya gotta train with a grappler.

Mike

............................................... didn't i say i trained with all of you MMA people?

anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

as far as the duration in time that a particular person trains, quality is better than quantity.

Look i train a little grappling, all i'm saying is if that a person knocks you out before you grab them it doesn't matter.

What do you people consider a hard punch? I mean seriously do you even know what the human body is capable of?

And one more time for the record I train with grapplers

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

oh yeah one more thing, how did this get turned into a discussion about who could kick whos A**? just curious.

I think it was the comments in the first few posts about...

...not very much technique is used in them it's just kind of a sport for brawlers.

Also shouldn't they be able to strike harder than they do with all that training?

And

I think if you asked some real street fighters who fight in real underground matches about this they would say bring these "no holds barred" fighting competition champions out for a real no holds fight.

But, back to the original topic...

The original UFC taught several important lessons:
1) You need to be able to defend yourself on the ground as well as standing
2) Traditional training methods do not make you invulnerable.
3) There are good fighters and styles from places besides the US and Asia.
4) You will never know if it really works if you don't test your style, your training, and yourself against others.

Later UFC's demonstrated that a fighter needed to be well rounded and able to fight standing, in the clinch, and on the ground.

Pride elevated the level of competition and provided an international arena where the best fighters from Japan, the US, Brazil, and elsewhere could compete for real money in front of a huge global audience.

 

[MJS]

............................................... didn't i say i trained with all of you MMA people?

anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

This is like the 2nd or 3rd time you said this. Can you explain further. Are you telling me that Lennox Lewis, Holyfiled, and Tyson dont hit hard???

as far as the duration in time that a particular person trains, quality is better than quantity.

True. Just have to make sure that you are getting that quality training. I just dont see how training forms is gonna help.

Look i train a little grappling, all i'm saying is if that a person knocks you out before you grab them it doesn't matter.

True again. Havent seen that happen to Rickson though. Being able to avoid that takedown or shoot from a skilled grappler is harder than it seems though. In addition, the striker needs to make sure his punch lands in the right spot.

What do you people consider a hard punch? I mean seriously do you even know what the human body is capable of?

Again, I go back to Tyson. That to me, is a hard punch.


Mike

 

[Jason Davis]

ok I'll explain what i mean by a hard strike.

Do you have a little dog ar have you ever been around one (little being less than 10 lbs.) Ok think of sitting on the floor about 10 ft away from the dog. Think about the dog being wet and shaking itself dry. Now if that dog were to shak itself dry you would be able to feel the floor vibrate right? even though the dog only weighed 10 lbs and was 10 ft away. Now if you were to look at the dog you would see that the shake isn't the dogs whole body it starts at the head and like a wave moves to the end of the dogs tail progressively getting stronger and stronger until it reaches the tail where it is the strongest. The human body is capable of the same thing you just have to train yourself to be able to do it it called "reeling silk". It's not majic it's physics and you obviously have never been hit by this type of strike. it's not the same as a normal punch it's more like a wave than anything else. and oh yeah you have to be totally relaxed the whole time you perform the strike. Read up on how the body woks and it's antagonist you'll understand why a closed fist is not by far the most efficient way to strike. I guarantee you that the type of strike i just described isn't like anything that you have ever expierienced or you wouldn't think that boxers could hit hard. also with this type of stike it doesn't matter where it lands it does serious damage regaurdless of where it hits so it doesn't matter.

have you ever seen someone be knocked 8 feet back through the air while holding a target? I have and they were in a bow stance when it happened. So believe it or not I could care less.

Seriously though I never said that any of those ufc fighters or boxers didn't hae awesone skill i just said that it wasn't anything special. And it's not nothing is. Seriously, read my very first post all I said was that they should be able to strike harder for the amount of training they do. It would make their lives alot easier.

As far as practicing forms goes, I practice forms so I don't get fat. Some people run, forms are just my excercise of choice. If you really must know the bulk of all my training is for striking power, iron palm, and sparring. but why does it even matter read my very first post and then explain to me why this thread became such an issue? im curious.

 

[MJS]

ok I'll explain what i mean by a hard strike.

Do you have a little dog ar have you ever been around one (little being less than 10 lbs.) Ok think of sitting on the floor about 10 ft away from the dog. Think about the dog being wet and shaking itself dry. Now if that dog were to shak itself dry you would be able to feel the floor vibrate right? even though the dog only weighed 10 lbs and was 10 ft away. Now if you were to look at the dog you would see that the shake isn't the dogs whole body it starts at the head and like a wave moves to the end of the dogs tail progressively getting stronger and stronger until it reaches the tail where it is the strongest. The human body is capable of the same thing you just have to train yourself to be able to do it it called "reeling silk". It's not majic it's physics and you obviously have never been hit by this type of strike. it's not the same as a normal punch it's more like a wave than anything else. and oh yeah you have to be totally relaxed the whole time you perform the strike. Read up on how the body woks and it's antagonist you'll understand why a closed fist is not by far the most efficient way to strike. I guarantee you that the type of strike i just described isn't like anything that you have ever expierienced or you wouldn't think that boxers could hit hard. also with this type of stike it doesn't matter where it lands it does serious damage regaurdless of where it hits so it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the reply. I figured that it had something to do with iron palm. Due to the fact that boxers and MMA/NHB fighters wear gloves, I would think that it might not be that effective. I dont dispute the validity of this tech. All I'm saying is that considering that you're porbably not going to be too relaxed during your fight, is it gonna be that effective? This reminds me of Dillman and his pressure points. I dont dispute that they dont work, I dispute that they dont work against someone that is moving. Look at every time you see him demo one. How is it set up? His 'dummy" is standing IFO him, not moving, not doing anything. Now, try doing something like that when there is movement. I read an article and he was asked if he could do a PP KO on Gracie, and he actually said YES!!! I almost fell over from laughing so hard. Yeah, maybe if Gracie stood still. PP, IMO, are best done against a grab. Getting back to this hand tech though. It is also something that is gonna take a while to develop. I really dont think that its something that can be learned quickly.

have you ever seen someone be knocked 8 feet back through the air while holding a target? I have and they were in a bow stance when it happened. So believe it or not I could care less.

Hey, anything is possible I guess.

Seriously though I never said that any of those ufc fighters or boxers didn't hae awesone skill i just said that it wasn't anything special. And it's not nothing is. Seriously, read my very first post all I said was that they should be able to strike harder for the amount of training they do. It would make their lives alot easier.

I would think that all of the MMA fighters would disagree with you on this.

As far as practicing forms goes, I practice forms so I don't get fat. Some people run, forms are just my excercise of choice. If you really must know the bulk of all my training is for striking power, iron palm, and sparring. but why does it even matter read my very first post and then explain to me why this thread became such an issue? im curious.

I've done Kenpo for 17yrs and have done forms countless times. I agree that they do give a good cardio workout, but I cant be sold that they can help you fight. As for how the post got out of control....I guess it was your opening post...What was our opinion, and from that, it lead to this.

Mike

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Hey OFK

All I am saying is what my friends saw there when they went.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Bull sheeeeeeeet!

 

[Jason Davis]

Thanks for the reply. I figured that it had something to do with iron palm. Due to the fact that boxers and MMA/NHB fighters wear gloves, I would think that it might not be that effective. I dont dispute the validity of this tech. All I'm saying is that considering that you're porbably not going to be too relaxed during your fight, is it gonna be that effective? This reminds me of Dillman and his pressure points. I dont dispute that they dont work, I dispute that they dont work against someone that is moving. Look at every time you see him demo one. How is it set up? His 'dummy" is standing IFO him, not moving, not doing anything. Now, try doing something like that when there is movement. I read an article and he was asked if he could do a PP KO on Gracie, and he actually said YES!!! I almost fell over from laughing so hard. Yeah, maybe if Gracie stood still. PP, IMO, are best done against a grab. Getting back to this hand tech though. It is also something that is gonna take a while to develop. I really dont think that its something that can be learned quickly.



Hey, anything is possible I guess.



I would think that all of the MMA fighters would disagree with you on this.



I've done Kenpo for 17yrs and have done forms countless times. I agree that they do give a good cardio workout, but I cant be sold that they can help you fight. As for how the post got out of control....I guess it was your opening post...What was our opinion, and from that, it lead to this.

Mike

my opinion was that the fights weren't no holds barred.......it was more toward the marketing than the actual fighing.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Jason:

I have to agree with MJS about the Iron Palm stuff. It's like the one-inch punch--works OK on someone standing there waiting to get hit. Doesn't work so well on a moving target. Doesn't work at all against a conditioned, trained, fully-engaged pro-fighter -- and that's why nobody does it in pro fights. If it really worked, people would do it. That is one of the key lessons of MMA.

And, yes. The fights are not Ho Holds Barred anymore. The first UFC's were pretty close to No Holds Barred. And, trying to market this new event in the early 90's, No Holds Barred was probably the most descriptive name anybody could come up with.