Two gun shooting anyone? Benefits?

[AzQkr]

Blotan,

Once again, thanks for your opinions, and those of Mr. Earp.

If you are missing, slow down, if you are not missing, you are doing well at the speed you are at. His comment that "I do not wish to be misunderstood, for the time to be taken was only that split fraction of a second that means the difference between deadly accuracy with a sixgun and a miss." perfectly describes those that would spray and pray vs those who were not doing the same. No more or less, and is as valid today as it was back then.

"Whenever you see a picture of some two-gun man in action with both weapons held closely against his hips and both spitting smoke together, you can put it down that you are looking at the picture of a fool, or a fake."

Two gun is not preformed from the hip, and if it is, I'd tend to agree with Mr. Earp on the matter.

"I remeber quite a few of these so-called two-gun men who tried to operate everything at once, but like the fanners, they didn't last long in proficient company."

How true, few if that many, can operate two guns at once proficiently, and not knowing how to do so with speed and accuracy would be foolish to try, of course. Those that can and are proficent with using two guns ate once are a different matter altogether.

As I've stated in this thread a few times for yours and others edification, I carry one gun, we train advanced skils using one gun and only demo and allow those who would like to learn the skill of two gun at the end of the training.

Your posts seems to suggest you think I advocate shooting two guns simultaneoulsy, carrying two guns for that proposed purpose on the streets, and advocate that people should. That thought process is incorrect, nor have I alluded to such in my writings here or elsewhere.

The skill of being able to use two guns comes from learning the EPV skills, the skills that get you to be capable of such. EPV skills are ans important component, one not known or explored during Mr. Earps time above ground.

If you go read the histories of those others well known for their shooting skills during the same era, like Buffalo Bill Cody, Annie Oakley, her husband, Hickock, good old Doc Holiday and others, you'll see that they were considered deadly with longarms and pistols, and also shot two guns, ariels with rifles and pistols, etc. Not known for their "basic" skills, but for skills with arms that most, including Earp didn't have, nor practiced.

Hickock was deadly with a brace of pistols, considered the prince of the pistols in his day. Survived many a gunfight as well. Knew a few things men like the Earps didn't know and could not duplicate. History is rife with men who had skills with pistosl well beyond the considered norm then or now.

Brownie

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Everything old is new again.

But dont missunderstand me. Ive read a lot of gun forums and your approach to the sighted/front sight press/point shooting continuum is right on IMO. Im just not on board with teaching things that wont be used in a real fight.

 

[AzQkr]

I'd prefer to think rediscovered myself

Some very interesting rediscoveries have been brought back, from being lost or at least forgotten over time through extensive research, one of the best examples I can relate personally with is Jim Keating and Bill Bagwells research into the long knives and how they were used in the mid 19th century by masters in New Orleans. Both from the spanish and french standpoints on techniques.

In the case of threat focused skills, and particularly FAS from ww2, it was not a matter of lost [ as it has been well documented in books still available in reprintings ] or forgotten, but more a matter of being discarded, even though the skills within that system are as valid today as they were to the OSS from Britain and the US in real combat as well as the Shanghai Police.

Both histories are rich with numerous success stories of these forms of skills beign used to win in close up and personal encounters of the worst kind where firearms were used.

Brownie

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Like I said, Im all in with your approach to point shooting. Anybody who says they havent point shot when up close and/or under pressure is a liar. Give a little more distance and/or cover and maybe you can get a flash sight/front sight press shot. Even further out and you should be getting into sighted fire. IMO. Im just not keen on the "two gun" thing.

 

[AzQkr]

We usually get people to threat focus out to 21 feet with 100% successful hits into COM with speed in short order.

I'm of the mind set that I'll try to use the sights if time and distance allow it, but I won't die trying to get to them when they are unnecessary and time is factor in staying above ground at that moment.

The QK is so repeatable, I put 17 rounds into exactly one inch center to center on the holes from 15 feet with no sights on the gun in front of 14 students.

I had them all then try it and three were under 1.5 inches for their group at the same distance at the end of the second day, and no one was over 3 inches without the use of sights.

I understand your view on the two gun shooting, it's not going to be for everyone anymore than threat focused skills will be to begin with. There are still people who train others that refuse to believe it is a viable/reliable method on the streets even when students write their reviews and successes within that context.

Brownie

 

[matt.m]

I don't know I was only an expert shot in the marine corps in rifle and pistol. I would not recommend shooting a pistol in each hand. It really kills accuracy in my opinion.

 

[AzQkr]

matt.m;

Semper Fi

What I learned about the use of sights with both [ expert as well in boot on the 14 and then the gov45 in ITR at Geiger, subsequent requalls yearly on both has little bearing on accuracy needs on the streets in a SD situation.

From you post, am I to assume you have used two guns and found a degradation in accuracy? Or are your thoughts more toward precision shooting for score would degrade from the courses and materials we learned at the hands of the DI's and range masters later?

Acceptable accuracy based on distance to threats and time to make the shots, the amount of threat presented are all factors in determining what degradation from the precise shots we can accept.

I'll not die attempting to get to the sights when the requierments dictate it is unnecessary to do so.

Brownie

 

[matt.m]

matt.m;

Semper Fi

What I learned about the use of sights with both [ expert as well in boot on the 14 and then the gov45 in ITR at Geiger, subsequent requalls yearly on both has little bearing on accuracy needs on the streets in a SD situation.

From you post, am I to assume you have used two guns and found a degradation in accuracy? Or are your thoughts more toward precision shooting for score would degrade from the courses and materials we learned at the hands of the DI's and range masters later?

Acceptable accuracy based on distance to threats and time to make the shots, the amount of threat presented are all factors in determining what degradation from the precise shots we can accept.

I'll not die attempting to get to the sights when the requierments dictate it is unnecessary to do so.

Brownie

Semper fi big dog. I was 92-97. I am speaking from experience so to speak. I was a very young cpl in haiti in 94. I tried the whole two 9mm hot dog routine during house to house fighting and riot control reac business. I found the high and to the right way more prevelant.

I did get a little better to where I would guide my target so to speak more effeciently but great accuaracy was not as prevalant as I would have liked them to be.

 

[AzQkr]

Big dog? More like old, very old dog to you, you pup

I was 69-71, dang if that isn't some serious time ago now

I like the fact you tried something most would not, shows the devil dog in you. I'll bet if we talked and I gave you the key to this, you'd have found the house to house easier than you did.

It took me a very long time playing with this and lots of ammo to figure out the technique that makes it reliable and repeatable. If you'd like to hear how I came to getting it together to go try it again, shoot me a pm or email me at [email protected]

Semper Fi

Brownie