Point Shooting

[KenpoTex]

This is the technique I was taught. I don't fully rotate the gun until it is even with the centerline of my chest. By the time it's rotated, both hands are in contact with the gun. At this point, It's just as fast to draw and rotate at the hip, using less efficient muscles (for me, anyway) as it is to bring the gun straight up, then rotate with it in the center of mass, with two hands already on it. That's why I was saying earlier that if I simply "shoot earlier in the draw" I'll just hit the ground.

If the attacker is at arm's length (or even a little more), you'll still get a hit, it'll just be lower in his abdomen. I like this method for extreme close-quarters because you have the benefit of knowing exactly where the weapon is pointed thanks to the kinesthetic awareness you've ingrained by using a set of consistent reference points.

The other method of rotating the gun right out of the holster probably is better (i.e. slight decrease in the time it takes to get your first shot off) if the oponent is farther away (2 yards+). However, for me, the benefits of the high-elbow, muzzle-down retention position I mentioned above outweigh the very miniscule advantage in speed of the "rotate immediately" technique. YMMV

 

[arnisandyz]

The problem I see often with the multi-step process of A) First draw strait up...B) then bing to centerline...C) then meet with other hand and rotate...etc,etc is that it can get choppy (robotic) and you don't get a smooth draw. Its great for teaching and learning purposes and is a good starting point but the more you do it the more REFINED it should get. Many techniques are designed for the lowest common denominator to learn (not all LEO are gun people, but they still need to know how to present their weapon).

We are all basically doing the same movement, I'm not doing an "old west" quick draw with one hand and then bringing it to my other hand (although I can if needed) but as my gun clears the holster the wrist already begins to break, rotating the gun forward AS its going to centerline, if I'm shooting a 1911 the thumb safety comes off after the gun clears the holster and the rotation starts. My weak hand grip MERGES with the stronghand (as opposed to meeting). My muzzle may not be perfectly on target before it gets to my weakhand but its already on route, when it meets the weakhand its already in motion, the pointer finger of my off hand acts as a pivot under the trigger guard and completes the rotation as the heel of my weakhand gets a purchase on part of the grip. The key thing here is that things are happening AT THE SAME TIME. Its like a baton race where one runner hands off to another. They don't do it from a dead stop static position, they BLEND. If you can move smoothly through your draw you can stop at any of the reference points, the opposite isn't always true.

From a tactical standpoint, I don't want my muzzle pointed down in retained position. Good chance it might get trapped downward. In my retained position I'm muzzle on target, finger off trigger, elbows in. I can move my finger faster than rotating my wrist and elbows. Sounds like your retained position is our low ready.

 

[Cthulhu]

I've been trained in the method where the gun is not rotated until it reaches the centerline of the chest as well. However, I've recently changed to the method described by Arnisandyz.

For me, the greatest benefit is weapon retention...at close quarters, if someone is going for your gun, if you always train to not put the muzzle on the target until the gun is at centerline, you've potentially wasted valuable tenths of a second, because there's a good chance you won't put the muzzle on the fella trying to take your weapon immediately because your training has ingrained the other behavior into you.

Another factor is safety: most people will only train their draw from a standing position, so as long as they train properly under those conditions, there is little risk of sweeping themselves with the muzzle. However, if they're moving around quite a bit, squatting, etc., they may accidentally sweep a leg or foot with the muzzle unless they train for those situations as well.

Finally, there is the general advantage of getting the muzzle onto a close target >that< much faster. Those tenths or hundredths of a second of a second might make all the difference in the world.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisandyz]

if you always train to not put the muzzle on the target until the gun is at centerline, you've potentially wasted valuable tenths of a second, because there's a good chance you won't put the muzzle on the fella trying to take your weapon immediately because your training has ingrained the other behavior into you.
Cthulhu

This is what I was kind of talking about, about being LOCKED into a set method. By training the draw as 3 or 4 part process you are training it to be a rigid structured thing, when it should be a smooth flowing and adaptable process. In the beginning you may do it to get the basic mechanics down but you need to move BEYOND that. I can do 5 draws and almost guarantee that no 2 will be exactly the same. Some might say thats a bad thing, that the draw should always be the same (rigid). I feel the draw should be a live thing. You might not get that perfect grip you wanted, external factors may effect your draw, you may be in an awkward position, etc. Instead of forcing your draw, be aware and go where the draw takes you. Its like throwing a punch. We learn mechanics, theories and basics of how to execute the strike. but when it really comes down to it, if you want to hit the guy your body and mind finds a way without thinking it through a 4 step process.

 

[thardey]

If the attacker is at arm's length (or even a little more), you'll still get a hit, it'll just be lower in his abdomen. I like this method for extreme close-quarters because you have the benefit of knowing exactly where the weapon is pointed thanks to the kinesthetic awareness you've ingrained by using a set of consistent reference points.

The other method of rotating the gun right out of the holster probably is better (i.e. slight decrease in the time it takes to get your first shot off) if the oponent is farther away (2 yards+). However, for me, the benefits of the high-elbow, muzzle-down retention position I mentioned above outweigh the very miniscule advantage in speed of the "rotate immediately" technique. YMMV

Oh, I gotcha, I was thinking you were referring to someone beyond arm's reach. That makes sense. I think I'm going to start practicing with my airsoft at arm's length, as well as across my garage. Should be interesting.

And I thought "gunslinging" was dead.

 

[thardey]

The problem I see often with the multi-step process of A) First draw strait up...B) then bing to centerline...C) then meet with other hand and rotate...etc,etc is that it can get choppy (robotic) and you don't get a smooth draw. Its great for teaching and learning purposes and is a good starting point but the more you do it the more REFINED it should get. Many techniques are designed for the lowest common denominator to learn (not all LEO are gun people, but they still need to know how to present their weapon).

We are all basically doing the same movement, I'm not doing an "old west" quick draw with one hand and then bringing it to my other hand (although I can if needed) but as my gun clears the holster the wrist already begins to break, rotating the gun forward AS its going to centerline, if I'm shooting a 1911 the thumb safety comes off after the gun clears the holster and the rotation starts. My weak hand grip MERGES with the stronghand (as opposed to meeting). My muzzle may not be perfectly on target before it gets to my weakhand but its already on route, when it meets the weakhand its already in motion, the pointer finger of my off hand acts as a pivot under the trigger guard and completes the rotation as the heel of my weakhand gets a purchase on part of the grip. The key thing here is that things are happening AT THE SAME TIME. Its like a baton race where one runner hands off to another. They don't do it from a dead stop static position, they BLEND. If you can move smoothly through your draw you can stop at any of the reference points, the opposite isn't always true.

From a tactical standpoint, I don't want my muzzle pointed down in retained position. Good chance it might get trapped downward. In my retained position I'm muzzle on target, finger off trigger, elbows in. I can move my finger faster than rotating my wrist and elbows. Sounds like your retained position is our low ready.

I agree, smooth is always faster. As far as "steps" go, I was taught as a two-step process: 1.)Bring the gun to you solar plexus and fire. 2.) continue firing while extending your arms straight out.

Kenpotex just broke it down, which helped me communicate over the written format what I was shown.

As far as "rotating immediately" I'm not sure what your body build is, but by the time my gun has cleared the holster (Glock 21 from a 4:00 IWB), my thumb is already touching my pectoral muscle, and it's time to rotate anyway. At that point, if I only rotate my wrist, the gun is already in front of my chest, at about my right nipple. My left hand has been waiting at the center of my chest, having gone there as I reached for the gun, and the right hand merges (I like that term) with the left automatically. With a compact body position (head ducked), I can see the front sight, if I want it. Bang! All this as soon as I rotate.

If I don't draw "straight up", but draw forward at an angle, then I can see the delay caused by having to rotate the weapon later, but then you've got other problems, and are moving into the "old west" type of draw.

If you draw backwards at an angle, then you can rotate the wrist sooner, but you still have to "push" forward a little bit with your elbow to get the stability to control a large handgun. But you can fire from the hip. However, I would have to carry the gun at about 2:30, which doesn't work for my body type, It would ride right on the bony part of my hip.

 

[KenpoTex]

The problem I see often with the multi-step process of A) First draw strait up...B) then bing to centerline...C) then meet with other hand and rotate...etc,etc is that it can get choppy (robotic) and you don't get a smooth draw. Its great for teaching and learning purposes and is a good starting point but the more you do it the more REFINED it should get.

Agreed

We are all basically doing the same movement

agreed

Sounds like your retained position is our low ready.

um, probably not,

Here's some pics so you can see the progression. I must not be explaining it very clearly. I swiped the pics from this thread over at TPI. The man pictured is an instructor named Paul Gomez.

As you can see in the second pic, the gun is oriented at a downward angle (due to the high elbow and locked wrist) but not to the point that you won't get decent hits at ECQ. The slight downward angle just allows more freedom of movement with the off hand to fend off attacks and/or protect against a gun-grab attempt.
The gun is not oriented dramatically downward. When we go from Count #2 to Count #3, you can see there's not a huge pivot required to get the muzzle oriented on a threat farther away. The pivot is accomplished because the elbow has to drop as the gun moves to mate/merge with the off-hand over the centerline.
Count #3 is where the hands meet, the gun is now on our centerline. We can fire from here as well as firing while pushing the gun out to the appropriate level of extension.

As you mentioned above, as we practice and get smoother, the "steps" kind of blur together, however, with by practicing this method, we can develop consistent reference points so that we have good solutions for a variety of ranges.

 

[LawDog]

Those photographs are ok but there is a minor problem with them. The shooter brought his head down to the firearm, this will distort his true field of view. Point shooting is looking at the target with your eyes then pointing the barrel to where you are looking so there should be no need to drop your head down so low that is unless a few bullets are being returned to your position.
This is just a noted point.
:sig:

 

[thardey]

Those photographs are ok but there is a minor problem with them. The shooter brought his head down to the firearm, this will distort his true field of view. Point shooting is looking at the target with your eyes then pointing the barrel to where you are looking so there should be no need to drop your head down so low that is unless a few bullets are being returned to your position.
This is just a noted point.
:sig:

Those photographs are in reference to getting a "sight picture" ASAP, their not primarily concerned with point shooting. But it does seem like a good place to start.

 

[LawDog]

Understood

 

[KenpoTex]

Point shooting is looking at the target with your eyes then pointing the barrel to where you are looking so there should be no need to drop your head down so low...

agreed but the discussion had kind of split off to discuss the finer points of a couple of different drawstrokes.

 

[arnisandyz]

As you mentioned above, as we practice and get smoother, the "steps" kind of blur together, however, with by practicing this method, we can develop consistent reference points so that we have good solutions for a variety of ranges.

Thanks for posting those pics. I have several friends that do the same draw stroke. Like I mentioned, we are all doing the same basic draw. Some differences (for better or worse). I'll call the draw I do the IPSC draw for lack of a better term as it seems that a majority of shooters in IPSC/USPSA/IDPA all seem to adapt the same technique.

IPSC draw &#8211; draw doesn't come as high, instead of the high upward motion into the chest, as soon as the muzzle clears the holster its heading up at an angle toward the target. Less head and shoulder movement. Like Lawdog said, moving your head forward and back up and down and hunching your shoulders can change your visual plane to the target whether point shooting OR sight shooting. I was taught to TRY to keep the upper body as still as possible during the draw. Generally more relaxed and neutral with less muscular tension. maybe a little more forward lean on the balls of the feet.

Granted I'm sure the draw method you posted is tried and true and proven in self defense shootings. There may be reasons why there is so much tension throughout the draw. Could be when the adrenaline kicks up fine motor skills go out the window, so the tension creates a familiar reference point.

 

[thardey]

Thanks for posting those pics. I have several friends that do the same draw stroke. Like I mentioned, we are all doing the same basic draw. Some differences (for better or worse). I'll call the draw I do the IPSC draw for lack of a better term as it seems that a majority of shooters in IPSC/USPSA/IDPA all seem to adapt the same technique.

IPSC draw – draw doesn't come as high, instead of the high upward motion into the chest, as soon as the muzzle clears the holster its heading up at an angle toward the target. Less head and shoulder movement. Like Lawdog said, moving your head forward and back up and down and hunching your shoulders can change your visual plane to the target whether point shooting OR sight shooting. I was taught to TRY to keep the upper body as still as possible during the draw. Generally more relaxed and neutral with less muscular tension. maybe a little more forward lean on the balls of the feet.

Granted I'm sure the draw method you posted is tried and true and proven in self defense shootings. There may be reasons why there is so much tension throughout the draw. Could be when the adrenaline kicks up fine motor skills go out the window, so the tension creates a familiar reference point.

Some very good points.

The guy who taught me is an FBI special agent - and it looks a lot like his "draw" to get his rifle into action -- with the head down, shoulders hunched, etc. And I'm sure it has something to do with gross motor skills, since that's a point that he pushes often, whether dealing with weapons or empty-handed: "When the adrenalin hits, fine motor skills disappear". I think the idea is to get the gun in front of you before you touch it off, since you'll be pulling it when you're surprised, and have less time to take in the target and background.

I can definitely see an advantage to the style you mentioned in the IPSC/USPSA/IDPA, since it would shave off precious 1/10ths of a second, and not add "tension," but you're right, I learned that draw in regards to a surprise/self-defense situation.

 

[arnisandyz]

In regards to "real world" or competition:
there IS a correlation between street and competition. IPSC was originally created to test self-defense techniques (the focus has since changed). This was a time when EVERYONE was shooting Weaver.

The reason I say this is that its much more than 1/10ths of a second you mentioned you are saving (which by the way I think is a bit off on your estimation). You are not only gaining time but the advancement and refinement of technique. It has come full circle to where schools that teach modern defensive tactics have brought in competition shooters to teach their methods of the modern iso, the "IPSC" grip, speed reloads and other techniques born in competition.

I don't really buy the theory that "this is for the REAL word and that is just for competition" and vice versa. YES there are things that you can do in competition that will get you killed on the street and there are techniques used by LEO/Military that won't work in competition if you want to place well. In the end there are more similarities than differences.

I also don't agree with manufacturing your OWN tension on the draw or anywhere for that matter. I DO buy into the idea of being neutral, if the situation creates the tension then you are able to adjust to it. The problem with creating your own tension is that it can be variable...too much pressure one way and not enough the other will change your alignment. Think about driving a car. You don't have a death grip on the wheel the entire time. As the car reacts to bumps and turns you adjust your input as needed. Also, anyone that has ANY martial arts experience will tell you tension kills speed and power and also traps the mind.

The original post was about point shooting...I really believe neutrality and awareness will take you farther in point shooting that techniques which appear unnatural and uncomfortable. With that draw, rather than a natural act of just getting the gun on target it looks forced, like someone is TRYING to do a fast draw rather than just doing it.

 

[thardey]

Wait, I'm confused. Are you responding to my post? Then I think I wasn't very clear. Let me try again.

In regards to "real world" or competition:
there IS a correlation between street and competition. IPSC was originally created to test self-defense techniques (the focus has since changed). This was a time when EVERYONE was shooting Weaver.

Of course, the correlation is very close, closer than hand-to-hand differences between sport and "real world" self-defense. I mean, If I understand the differences between your draw (IPSC) and the one I was shown (Front Sight Press, I believe) we're talking about exactly when you pivot your wrist, which can be crucial, but overall is pretty much the same draw.

The reason I say this is that its much more than 1/10ths of a second you mentioned you are saving (which by the way I think is a bit off on your estimation). You are not only gaining time but the advancement and refinement of technique. It has come full circle to where schools that teach modern defensive tactics have brought in competition shooters to teach their methods of the modern iso, the "IPSC" grip, speed reloads and other techniques born in competition.

The 1/10ths of a second wasn't my idea, I was using the time mentioned earlier--

I've been trained in the method where the gun is not rotated until it reaches the centerline of the chest as well. However, I've recently changed to the method described by Arnisandyz.

For me, the greatest benefit is weapon retention...at close quarters, if someone is going for your gun, if you always train to not put the muzzle on the target until the gun is at centerline, you've potentially wasted valuable tenths of a second, because there's a good chance you won't put the muzzle on the fella trying to take your weapon immediately because your training has ingrained the other behavior into you. . *snip*

Finally, there is the general advantage of getting the muzzle onto a close target >that< much faster. Those tenths or hundredths of a second of a second might make all the difference in the world.

Cthulhu

So I just went with what was already said. I've only tried the one style, so I'm taking his word on the time difference.

Also, I'm not theoretically saving the time, you are -- I'm sacrificing the time for what I hope is consistency.

I don't really buy the theory that "this is for the REAL word and that is just for competition" and vice versa. YES there are things that you can do in competition that will get you killed on the street and there are techniques used by LEO/Military that won't work in competition if you want to place well. In the end there are more similarities than differences.

Well, sure the one is a great place to train for the other. But there is one thing that can't be reproduced, and for me personally, tends to be one of the filters that I run this stuff through. That is the element of surprise.

Personally, I should only need this technique, especially in the idea of point shooting, if I got totally taken by surprise. If I have half an idea that in the next five minutes I might need to draw my gun, my hands already on it, or it's in "Low ready" and I will be working hard to get out of that situation ASAP.

On the other hand, if someone "gets the drop" on me, and catches me unaware (stupid for me, but it could happen) I'm going to go from thinking about dinner that night, to drawing and firing a gun. That's the part that simply can't be reproduced in any training environment. When I change that fast, I usually overreact, and I want a draw that has some reference points for my muscle memory to find while my brain is still catching up.

I also don't agree with manufacturing your OWN tension on the draw or anywhere for that matter. I DO buy into the idea of being neutral, if the situation creates the tension then you are able to adjust to it. The problem with creating your own tension is that it can be variable...too much pressure one way and not enough the other will change your alignment. Think about driving a car. You don't have a death grip on the wheel the entire time. As the car reacts to bumps and turns you adjust your input as needed. Also, anyone that has ANY martial arts experience will tell you tension kills speed and power and also traps the mind.

Ah, but think about throwing a punch. There is tension, but only at the end of the punch, the rest is neutral. In the FSP draw, there is only tension right as the trigger is pulled, and that's only because your forearm is locked close to your chest. IMO, it's the same as the tension used in steadying a rifle, by jamming it hard into your shoulder. Besides, the added tension was your idea, I was just agreeing that it could be a factor.

The original post was about point shooting...I really believe neutrality and awareness will take you farther in point shooting that techniques which appear unnatural and uncomfortable. With that draw, rather than a natural act of just getting the gun on target it looks forced, like someone is TRYING to do a fast draw rather than just doing it.

Hmm, look at kenpotex's avatar . . . see how in order to use the sights he hunches his head over? Same thing with shooting a rifle, your bring your head down to the sights. Same with boxing. For me, that is the natural and neutral position. Standing straight up for me would be the forced technique. Since the first few answers I got for point shooting were essentially, "use the standard draw you have, but don't rely on the sights," if I naturally drop my head, then why not?

Which brings me back to my question about when the wrist rotates in IPSC. Starting with the photographs provided of the FSP, between pictures #1 and #2 there is the beginning of a rotation, provided by the bent elbow necessary to clear the gun from the holster. The wrist never rotates, other that than it started in a bent "forward" position, but as the gun clears, the wrist returns to a "neutral" position, the gun is now pointed forward. For #3, the elbow is pushed forward, that is -- the shoulder rotates without dropping, and as soon as the gun is horizontal it can be fired. (This would be the only point of "tension.") By this time the other hand may or may not have merged on the grip, but it's certainly possible, without losing time. It would still be "point shooting" at this time, because you couldn't get a line of sight down the barrel even if you ducked your head like a turtle. #4 is the end of the 3rd or 4th shot, by which time you've been using the sights, unless it's dark.

So, the only way I can envision cutting out time would be to fire before the time it took Mr. FSP to get to photo #3.

So far I can only come up with two ways -- #1 "Stupid cowboy who watched too much John Wayne" Method, or SCM (Stupid Cowboy Method) for short. This would involve a pistol carried low on the back of the hip. Reach down for the gun, "whip" it out, and hope it doesn't go off early and shoot yourself in the thigh, foot, or the source of your macho cowboy attitude. Could be quicker, possibly. I'm not willing to test that theory, even with an airsoft gun.

Second, carry as normal, (for me, 3:30 IWB) and start as far as photo #2 (got to get the gun out first, of course), but then instead of pivoting at the shoulder, push the gun slightly down and forward, until you get the gun to the "fire from the hip" (actually about the floating rib, not the waist.) position. True "Point Shooting." Maybe you don't have to push the gun back down, but as for me, I simply can't shoot a gun from my armpit, that may be problem, but it just ain't gonna happen for me. But the elbow and shoulder would have to drop, otherwise we're back to Photo #3. Then to continue the draw the gun would have to swing up slightly until it got to a point where it was stable again (Photo #4 with the head down, so I could use the sights) So the gun moves up, down, then around to final resting place. So I could get off a first shot quicker (maybe 1/10th of a second or less), it's harder to fire the second and third, (compared to pushing it straight out from Photo #3) until I get gun stable again for the forth shot. And I certainly can't use the sights for any of the first three shots.

So, my question is (and I asking honestly, since I'm certainly not married to any one style.) where did I miss the mechanics necessary to rotate your wrist "earlier" without working against your final goal by dropping the gun back down? If you're only going for one shot, I could see the advantage, but in that kind of situation, I'm training for at least three shots, and I'll probably fire off 5 or so before I'm done. (Remember, I'm surprised, and overreacting.) I have two goals, both very important to me. A.)Get the first shot off as quick as possible without sacrificing B.) get off 2-4 more shots in rapid succession using the sights.

 

[arnisandyz]

photo #2 (got to get the gun out first, of course), but then instead of pivoting at the shoulder, push the gun slightly down and forward, until you get the gun to the "fire from the hip" (actually about the floating rib, not the waist.) position. True "Point Shooting." Maybe you don't have to push the gun back down, but as for me, I simply can't shoot a gun from my armpit, that may be problem, but it just ain't gonna happen for me. But the elbow and shoulder would have to drop, otherwise we're back to Photo #3.

So, my question is (and I asking honestly, since I'm certainly not married to any one style.) where did I miss the mechanics necessary to rotate your wrist "earlier" without working against your final goal by dropping the gun back down?

Sorry, I wasn't really addressing anyone, just throwing more stuff out there for discussion. If you look at photo 2 the draw IS all the way up to the ARMPIT with elbow high (as you mentioned). You also mentioned you have trouble presenting the gun from here. THIS is the tension I was talking about! If you take your hand by your side and put it in the position in photo 2 you will FEEL the tension in your neck and shoulder. This is almost a standing center-lock that some people in Modern Arnis do to create tension on the wrist, neck and deltoid muscle. The gun doesn't need to "DROP DOWN" if it doesn't go up that high.

On my draw..photo 1 would be close to the same except the elbow would be more rear facing (pointing to the rear like you are elbowing somebody) instead of up (which puts pressure on your neck and causes you to shift position), elbows tucked close to the body as possible. This will allow you to stabilize your upper body and head movement. You only need to come up as high as you need too to clear the muzzle from the holster and nothing more. As soon as the muzzle clears the holster the wrist breaks and gets the muzzle close to 45 degrees, as the elbow returns forward to centerline the gun moves forward at an upward angle to the target. The support hand comes in right at the point where the elbows are at centerline. You would have to have someone fine-tune the details as its all variable depending on your body type and carry position.

If you look at the photos again you can see the draw is in 2 planes of vertical and horizontal. Gun comes strait up and thrust strait out. Take that and eliminate photo 2 and 3 and replace it with an upward angle (new dimension) and you'll be close!

Try it and let me know what you find.

 

[thardey]

Aha! That makes sense. Unfortunately, with my body build, and the fullsize Glock I carry, I can't clear the gun from the holster that way unless I start with it in about the 2:30 position. (I have long arms and a short, thick torso.) That just doesn't work for a daily carry option for me, I can't even stand to have my cell phone there (I can't sit down!). If I had a pocket sized gun, I could carry it at my appendix, and then I would definitely use that variation of the draw.

But I'll go home and play with it this weekend, and see if I can't come up with a cross between the two. Thanks for your help!

 

[thardey]

Okay, got to play around a little this weekend, and here's what I found:

If I cocked my wrist hard when I drew, I could clear the gun without having to raise my shoulder as much, but I still had to draw straight up. (I have been naturally keeping my elbow in close to my body, I just never thought about it -- must be the karate drills that did that!) Essentially no change to what I was doing before, but I did notice that the overall tension was a little less. Then I could "snap" my wrist slightly past a neutral position, and be ready to fire. The gun was now about 1" beneath by nipple (instead of even with it as before), and about 1" to the outside -- which was just enough of a change to warrant one-handed firing. The second shot was now taken at the same position of my previous first shot (two hands, close to the body, stable "shot platform", and the third and fourth shots extended with the use of the sights as before.

Overall, I think an improvement, for close range shots (up to 2.5 yards or so), but I'm going to have to work on two things: One, there's a significant beat of time between my first and second shots, but I don't see why that can't be smoothed out over time, and two, I have a huge tendency to drop the gun about 2" for the first shot, so that it does that stupid up, down, and around thing that I was whining about earlier. It's going to take some time to break that. (I caught myself doing that about 1 in 5 draws.)

I've also got to get used to the feeling of shooting with a slightly cocked wrist -- so far as I remember, I've always shot with my wrists perfectly straight, but then I've always limited myself to target shooting before this.

So anyway, that's what I've found, thanks for all the help, and clarification. If I'm still missing something, please let me know.

 

[arnisandyz]

Glad you are doing some experimentation, as you know, you're going to have to go through that to find what works best for you. The only comment I have to make is that I would practice in dryfire going from the holster to an extended sighted shot FIRST keeping things smooth and moving through the entire draw. This doesn't and shouldn't be done at full speed initially. You should just be looking for smoothness. Smooth is fast. The problem with picking set places to shoot from in the draw is that it will make you choppy....stop and go. Once you can do the entire draw smoothly, fire multiple shots WHILE THE DRAW IS HAPPENING as long as the muzzle is clear. You will be doing 2 distinct and separate acts. Your draw stroke is the same whether you are firing multiple shots or one sighted shot, you are simply firing the gun as the draw is happening.

But for point shooting I would practice shooting from your natural sighted position before shooting through the draw, the gun will be slightly lower to get a better view of the target and you won't look at the front sight but be able to see it in your peripheral vision. You will be target focused and sighting down the gun like a rib on a shotgun.

Hope that makes sense and be very careful and watch your muzzle!

 

[thardey]

That's good, I hadn't done the entire draw for some time, and I hadn't done the draw while dry firing yet.

Was it you that recommended, in a different thread, to fire various number of shots each time you draw? Sometimes you'll fire four, sometimes two, etc.? I think doing that while firing at different times during the draw may help smooth things out.

So far I've been experimenting with the airsoft gun, so I'm not as tense, and have a little more freedom to play. (That was exactly my reason for buying it in the first place -- that and I could shoot it in my garage.) So hopefully I've worked out most of the bugs before I go live. I'll just start slow and smooth again and keep going from there.