Elements Of A Shoot......

[Brian R. VanCise]

View attachment $Double Leg at LVMAA.jpg


There is a lot of interesting discussion going on in several threads on how to stop a double leg or single leg takedown. Really the only way to understand how to stop one is also how to do one. I thought I would start a thread talking about some of the key elements and principles I personally use when I shoot in for a double leg takedown. Mind you this is not my best skill set but it is some thing I do at a pretty good level.

Some of the things I do to effect a shoot for a double leg or single leg during sparring are:

I stay slightly upright with my knees bent not straight upright but more of a moderate crouch (I do not want to give the impression that I am going for a takedown)

I am on the balls of my feet and will turn my back leg into a sprinters position when I am going to close (this allows for rapid explosive movement)

I look high (chest level at least) so that if they are watching my eyes they will not see a give away where I am going
(the whole time I am using peripheral vision to monitor their legs)

I do not want to shoot in when they are in balance (this is critical) I will not shoot if they are in balance!!!

The only time I would shoot without a fake is if they have entered a distance close enough for me to move foreward rapidly and they put a good proportion of their weight on their front leg! (more than 50%) This is pretty easy to time right when you have experience!

Ideally I utilize a high fake or a low front kick followed by a high fake to get them back peddling and thinking about their
upper level defense and then I change levels.

When I change levels I have to be within a very certain distance so that they really cannot react with a knee strike if they do get in balance. This distance I have found is different for everyone so you will have to find your own.

Once I close and have changed levels if I am going for a double leg I want to get my head to the outside of their leg and hands behind the knees and drive forward onto my front knee at this point they probably are going down.

I am driving forward to off balance them thus really negating any strikes coming down. (this is critical) Also a really important point for anyone thinking about striking during a double leg when they have closed.

If they do not go down but are still close and back peddling I leg wrap and take them down. (this is backup to the first takedown)

If they lean over me then I drop my second knee and lift and dump them and take them down. (this is backup as well)

Now this is a very basic double leg and I have modified it through the years to incorporate some Penn State Wrestling where I wrap their legs with my arms. (very effective and a wrestling coach taught me this)

When I come I am committed and not half assing it. I am coming 100%

Off balancing and having them on their heels is really important!!!

Against people who do not have grappling experience this works all the time. So easy, so simple. If someone has experience and knows how to sprawl then controlling the space in between when closing is important. Shorten up the space, get them back peddling and off balance is even more important. If they can create space they will have a chance to sprawl. I do not want that! If they do sprawl I am driving hard to get those legs and continue with the takedown.

Key points:

High Gaze
Disproportionate amount of weight on their front leg
Low Strike and High Fake right before entry (or just High Fake)
Opponent Bad Peddling and Off Balance
Level Change
Close quickly with commitment
Wrap the Legs
Drive and change angles if needed(never underestimate how important this is)
Have Back Up Takedowns in place (Leg Wrap & Lift and Dump)



Just some thought on the very basic double leg or single leg and looking forward to other people talking about how they set up their shoot! Tony, Steve, Drop Bear and everyone else you are up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

looking forward to other people talking about how they set up their shoot!

Hope I'm not redirecting the direction of this thread discussion. I don't like to use "double legs" for the following reasons:

- When you use both of your arms to get your opponent's legs, his arms are free. There are too many possibilities that he can use his free arms to counter you.
- It's better to let your leg to control your opponent's leg, and let you arm to control your opponent's arm.
- When you use "double legs", your body are too close to the ground. It gives your opponent a chance to use his body weight to crash on top of you.
- ...

If you use "bear hug outer leg", you can:

- use your arms to control your opponent's arms.
- use your leg to control his leg,
- use your body weight to crash on top of his body.
- avoid to drop that low.
- continue to control his arms from stand up game all the way to the ground game. You will in much better mount position.

It's not quite the same as the "double legs" but the principle is similar. You take your opponent down backward. You may take less risk and get better result. Anything that you can carry over from your stand up game to your ground game is always a good thing.

 

[geezer]

Brian, you hit most of the key points. In fact, you hit so many that it would make some think that shooting was a low percentage option ...which it isn't! Then in the fine print you state this: "Against people who do not have grappling experience this works all the time. So easy, so simple." True words.

I did a bit of wrestling in my youth, but hadn't shot a takedown (when I was sober) since high school. Now at 59 with injuries to my legs, knees, and lower back, it's hardly a smart time to start. Then again, I'm not that smart.

A few months back our little WC club moved to a new location that actually had mats available to use. I took the opportunity to go over over some outdated shoot defenses in the old WC curriculum dating back to the 80s ...and had to just stop the class. The stuff was just unreliable against a decent shoot. Unfortunately, nobody else in the class had any grappling experience at all, and they wanted me to demonstrate since some other instructors claimed these defenses worked. So guess who had to step up to prove the point. Fortunately I had some knee pads in my bag.

...And yes, I really sucked. Awkward. Slow, Poor timing and distancing. And I hurt like heck the next day, ...and for the rest of the week. But they went down like trees.

Well, what did I expect. They are also somewhat old, in their thirties and forties, and they are WC guys whose only exposure to grappling was a clumsy kind of horizontal flying tackle launched from a mile away. They were taught to counter with off-lining and chain punching, and if that failed to give a downward elbow strike to the back. None of that works if the shooter 1. establishes correct distance, 2. knows how to set them up, 3. changes levels and gets under their punches 4. penetrates deep, keeping a good upright head position, and 5. drives through hard to the finish. And since I already know more WC than them, setting them up was easy. In fact I found that the close distance we play our WC is a great distance to shoot. Something worth keeping in mind.

So for the last few months, I've been trying to review my rudimentary wrestling material. The other day one of my high school students stopped by my classroom (the ceramic studio) during my lunch/prep period and noticed that I had grout sponges taped to my knees over my pants. I confessed that I was secretly practicing takedown exercises. Since he's on the wrestling team he thought this was totally normal! Anybody else would have probably complained to the principal!

Unfortunately the school I teach at is on the far side of town from where I live or I'd consider inviting some of the wrestlers to work with my WC class. And then again, that wouldn't work even if it weren't so far since there would be all kinds of liability issues. Teachers can't even give students a ride in their car these days. Liability and fear of suits over sexual harassment and such.

Now, on the other hand if the wrestling coach could put me in touch with some recent graduates who are out of school and over 18... hmmm. That might work!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll be honest: my double-legs suck. I can demonstrate the technique well enough to teach beginners, but my 50-year old knees don't care for the rapid level changes. (I'm also tall, which means I have to level-change further than most folks.) I'm much more likely to initiate takedowns from the clinch.

Brian covered a lot of the fundamentals. I'll mention a few points I don't think he mentioned:

When he mentions "driving forward to off-balance", he's not talking about grabbing the legs and then driving forward. The initial contact is pretty much a shoulder strike with impact to the gut.

Don't drop your hands early to reach for your opponents legs. Wait until you've gotten past his arms.

Unless you're going for a variation I've heard referred to as the "bully double" or "straight blast double", you don't finish the takedown by driving your opponent straight back. "Cut the corner" and drive your opponent to the side. Your head against their side is very important here for applying pressure.

Don't bend over too far on your initial shot. Once you've performed your penetration step and are cutting the corner, your back should be pretty upright.

Your head should be tight against their side. This not only helps you steer their body, but it protects you against guillotines and cross-face defenses.

If you time your shot perfectly to come in as they commit to a punch it does a lot to negate any potential defenses.

Have at least a couple of follow up moves ready if the initial shot fails. (This is another area I am personally weak on, which is why the double-leg is not one of my go-to moves.)

 

[geezer]

I'll be honest: my double-legs suck. I can demonstrate the technique well enough to teach beginners, but my 50-year old knees don't care for the rapid level changes. (I'm also tall, which means I have to level-change further than most folks.)

As I said, I'm 59 ...and boy are you right about this!

You really should warm up taking down WC guys. We stand straight up, fight close and tend to head-hunt with our punches. Get in to the edge of our punching range and bait us with an open chin so we step forward with a high punch. Move-in when we move. Deflect and press our jab-like punch aside and across the body with your palm (outdoor pak-sau) as you change levels and shoot into a nice big hole you just made. Since we will be standing up nice and straight, you won't have to bend your kness all much at all. :lol:

When he mentions "driving forward to off-balance", he's not talking about grabbing the legs and then driving forward. The initial contact is pretty much a shoulder strike with impact to the gut.

A totally awesome way to look at it. The shoot itself is a hurting technique. Hit 'em like you want to cut 'em in half.

Unless you're going for a variation I've heard referred to as the "bully double" or "straight blast double", you don't finish the takedown by driving your opponent straight back. "Cut the corner" and drive your opponent to the side. Your head against their side is very important here for applying pressure.

Actually when I wrestled as a kid back in the 1960s this was the basic version, and "cutting the corner" was a little more advanced. The straight-on takedown can work pretty well if you drive through hard. And you can add variations like hooking their leg to trip them. The down side is that you end up in their guard. Of course the idea of using "a guard" while laying on your back was meaningless to a wrestler back before anybody in the US had ever heard of BJJ.

 

[geezer]

double post

 

[drop bear]

You don't necessarily have to drop that knee. You can also to a squat version. If you are concerned about the impact.

MMA you shoot either when they are punching and will fall into it. Or when you are and their hands are which and can't defend it.

When you are punching hit the shoot after the left hand.