Tunnel Vision

[Chris Parker]

I'll give a clue as to one example of experiencing a real adrenal surge/dump in training... this is not an example of training to handle it (although it is touched on in the second half of the clip, that's really just acclimatization), it's an example of the difference between a real dump and not. Oh, and being very much RBSD (and, well, Deane's an Aussie...), there's a language warning here. But, really, the usage of language is an essential part of this training concept, as language and tonality alone can trigger an adrenaline dump, as well as it being, well, realistic.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Some questions:

1) Was your fellow student aware that the jerk shouting at him had friends with him that might get involved if he goes down?
2) What prevented your fellow student from moving away or calming the jerk down with words that forced him to move forward and attack down the center?
3) How many times, and for how long, did your fellow student punch the jerk before he went down?
4) Did your fellow student try to prevent the jerk from getting within punching distance or did he try to use a longer range technique such as a kick first?

When someone attacks you and you have to physically defend yourself you need to finish off the attacker quickly and efficiently without using excessive force because you may only have a very small window of opportunity. If your fellow student had finished off the jerk with one or two strikes instead of many then the guy's buddy might not have had the opportunity to blindside your fellow student.

You need to be aware of your surroundings from the outset, not just as you are striking your opponent. If you can finish off the attacker swiftly and decisively then that can be an incentive for his friends to think twice before attacking you. One of the reasons the guy's buddy might have got involved is because he saw his friend getting pummeled. If your fellow student had neutralized the jerk with, say a single strike for example, and moved away then the the guy's buddy would have less of an incentive to attack your fellow student because it would not prevent anything from happening to his friend (because it had already finished happening).

 

[mograph]

It's too bad about your friend, but it would be great if more clubs practiced the art of avoiding fights, or at least managing them, allowing the opponent to back off without losing face.
Some things come to mind, in order of escalation (this does not apply to criminal/drugged/psychotic types):
- being aware of one's surroundings
- minding one's own business and not aggravating possibly violent people
- defusing a possible fight by admitting you were in the wrong (even when you weren't) or by making neutral statements ("holy cow, that sounds bad -- let's take a look at the damage") with hands up in a "whoa, buddy, I'm sorry" stance, but up just in case ... and looking for potential assailant partners that may be lurking about
- if the other guy hits, to deflect in such a way as to push him away, spin him around to show that you can control him, resist him without escalating it
- if he persists, and this does not work, to get in one or two hits and move away, again allowing him a chance to back off
- if he persists again, take him down, but then back off and try to get away

Returning to topic, taking this kind of staged approach might stave off the adrenalin dump and give the martial artist a chance to look for options (e.g. shouting "hey you in the red shirt, call 911"). I just think that a club, if it teaches street self-defense, should teach the entire process, to avoid just the kind of problem your friend ran into. Of course, this generally applies to angry, irritated opponents, not criminal/drugged/psycho types.

That's just an opinion from someone who has avoided conflict pretty well so far. It gets easier as I get older, because fewer people see me as a threat.

 

[Transk53]

Being an ex doorman, I have seen this type of thing time and time again. The good thing is (like myself as a teenager), you do learn from that. Group mentatlity = one leader whom is supposed to be hard as nails, then the cowards in the background, with maybe one quiet one hanging back. If you go into a fight head strong, you will lose. If you cannot walk away and have to defend yourself, scan the surroundings. If you have tunnel vision (like myself), do not waste time on the target, they are all targets!! If you are intent on attacking, Don't!!! Goad first and walk away etc..........

 

[Mauthos]

One thing that my students have found has helped them out is the old 1 in the middle surrounded by all the remaining students. I quietly give the surrounding students a number that the one in the centre is unaware of and then simply call out a number. The corresponding person then attacks. I do not like using pre-scripted attacks therefore the surrounding students chose what they want to attack with and the guy in the centre has to react.

The main purpose is for the student in the centre to try and avoid, counter, block or pre-empt the inital attack and then continue to take them down by any means, finishing with some form of stomp etc to signify that they have disabled the attacker. As this is going on I may call out another number, therefore they have to always be aware that another attacker is coming. Although, I do not think this necessarily helps with the adrenaline dump effect etc as they are expecting additional attacks I think it trains them to always be aware of their surroundings when they are in a fight situation and hopefully to be prepared for it.

I also decrease the time between calling the numbers so eventually the student in the centre has to face multiple opponents and normally I end the exercise when the student has been overwhelmed. For me I think, as stated previously, this keeps them aware of their surroundings and tries to eliminate them forming a tunnel vision perspective, but also once they are effectively fighting a losing battle it does pump their adrenaline up and force them to deal with the consequences of what that entails.

Anyway, it seems to help my students, but definitely not the be all and end all.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Biggest thing I can say is what most people on here are saying. Sparring, or "lat-sau" (same thing).

Most WT people don't do it. And that is a FACT! Especially in the US, we are lazy as fart.

Another thing that is very important, we do not kneel or go to the ground.

If you really want to strike somebody on the ground, curb stomp his ***. When we are fighting stand up, do we kick to the face or punch to the foot? Hell no, that would be impractical, so why are we doing it on the ground (where we shouldn't even be!)?

Stay off the ground, and keep your wits about you.

 

[Cyriacus]

Biggest thing I can say is what most people on here are saying. Sparring, or "lat-sau" (same thing).

Most WT people don't do it. And that is a FACT! Especially in the US, we are lazy as fart.

Another thing that is very important, we do not kneel or go to the ground.

If you really want to strike somebody on the ground, curb stomp his ***. When we are fighting stand up, do we kick to the face or punch to the foot? Hell no, that would be impractical, so why are we doing it on the ground (where we shouldn't even be!)?

Stay off the ground, and keep your wits about you.

Unfortunately, if someones just been knocked down their head doesnt stay in one place long enough for you to stomp or kick it. The perk of leaning over and grabbing/dragging or mounting is that the other person more often than not cant move so good.

If theyre unconscious, you should probably be leaving.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Unfortunately, if someones just been knocked down their head doesnt stay in one place long enough for you to stomp or kick it. The perk of leaning over and grabbing/dragging or mounting is that the other person more often than not cant move so good.

If theyre unconscious, you should probably be leaving.

Thats the problem; We're talking about multiple attackers. So c'mon.

 

[Cyriacus]

Thats the problem; We're talking about multiple attackers. So c'mon.

All the more reason to be able to actually dispatch the ones you need to dispatch rather than getting beaten because of arbitrary rules youve drilled into yourself

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

All the more reason to be able to actually dispatch the ones you need to dispatch rather than getting beaten because of arbitrary rules youve drilled into yourself

Your speaking quite ignorantly. If there are MULTIPLE ATTACKERS; LIKE THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.... It is a bad idea to go to the ground in any way shape or form... WHY? Because now you are a fixed target, in which your opponentSSSSSS can SUUURRROOUNNNDDDD YOU.

Unless your packing (a gun) or a sword; your not going to "Dispatch" your opponents in one mighty blow; you are however going to give them an epic opprotunity to knock the puddin outta you while your rolling on the ground with ONE of the MANY guys you are fighting.

Did I make the point yet punkin?

This isn't about "aribitrary rules" i've drilled into myself; it's about surviving. And when you go to the ground, you don't survive. You need to keep moving. The best advantage you have against multiple attackers is your legs... carrying you away in a very quick manner. Unless you have an equalizer (gun) you have no business trying to take on multiple attackers.

Seems to me like you watch too many movies bro.

 

[jks9199]

Let's keep things friendly, OK?

I agree, generally going to the ground when you're being attacked by a group is a terrible idea. That doesn't mean you won't find yourself knocked on your butt, though. So having some idea of what to do there is probably pretty wise.

And, especially if you're dealing with multiple attackers, you'd best be trying to hurt 'em quick and effectively, and that means being able to rely on your punches or kicks to actually do damage.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Let's keep things friendly, OK?

I agree, generally going to the ground when you're being attacked by a group is a terrible idea. That doesn't mean you won't find yourself knocked on your butt, though. So having some idea of what to do there is probably pretty wise.

And, especially if you're dealing with multiple attackers, you'd best be trying to hurt 'em quick and effectively, and that means being able to rely on your punches or kicks to actually do damage.

I agree with ya; But he's just being a troll. And a d-bag for no reason. So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one. Whenever I post something of what I feel has value; He feels the incessant need to be a dick. Look at all the other forums he and I post in. Trying to contribute something and have a jackass come right behind me and play around just to stir the pot.

He's not contributing. He's just being a pill. Well, maybe he's just ****ing stupid. Either way your an admin, tell him to stop trolling so hard when people are having a discussion.

Sometimes I'm not the nicest; Or the most diplomatic. But I don't troll on people. Ya I have a very opinionated view and I try to keep my cool. In another post I tried to de-escalate the ********; but he just keeps bringing it.

 

[jks9199]

If you have a problem with a post, use the Report to Moderator button and let us know about. Describe the problem; ideally let us know which rule you think has been violated or specifically what the problem is. "He's a big dummy" doesn't help us; "He's insulting me" or "He's a troll because he's following every one of my posts with a rude post" will. The button's a triangular shape with an exclamation point in it at the bottom of the post. (It kind of makes me think of a yield sign...)

Our policies here are that members of the Staff involved in threads as posters don't moderate the threads, so I'm not actively involved in the moderation of this thread. I would suggest that it is possible to disagree, and even be opinionated, without being rude and insulting about it.

 

[geezer]

Wow, reading some of the posts here, I discovered that since the forum automatically replaces certain taboo words asterisks, then --although we can't use obscenity-- we can use asterisks to the same effect.

For example, as Master Ken says, "Your art is ********!" Furthermore, you are a first class ******. And everybody here can go **** ***, right? OK. I admit I really didn't write anything rude. ...I just hit the asterisk key a bunch of times. But seriously. If you start seeing your posts coming up with a lot of ****, maybe you should get a clue and re-edit your comments. Otherwise maybe you are acting like a ****. Just a thought ....:wink:

 

[The Last Legionary]

I agree with ya; But he's just being a troll. And a d-bag for no reason. So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one. Whenever I post something of what I feel has value; He feels the incessant need to be a dick. Look at all the other forums he and I post in. Trying to contribute something and have a jackass come right behind me and play around just to stir the pot.

He's not contributing. He's just being a pill. Well, maybe he's just ****ing stupid. Either way your an admin, tell him to stop trolling so hard when people are having a discussion.

Sometimes I'm not the nicest; Or the most diplomatic. But I don't troll on people. Ya I have a very opinionated view and I try to keep my cool. In another post I tried to de-escalate the ********; but he just keeps bringing it.

troll.
d-bag.
child.
dick.
jackass.
pill.
****ing stupid.

Congratulations. You just out scored me on the *** scale.
I think you missed the point the "be friendly" was also aimed at you, "punkin".

Might want to read the site rules. I'd say again, but it's obvious this would be your first time sweetie honey punkin pie.
Here's a hint: If you feel people are being an *** to you, it might just be you that's to blame. I know, not possible right, 'punkin'? You cant possibly be the reason people are pointing at you and laughing. But, then again, you can't avoid mirrors all your life.

Too busy to stalk you (which if you feel is happening is rule violation, which you'd know if you had read them), and should be reported (which you' know how to do if you'd read the rules). You can also put the person on "Ignore" (again, rules, read them, your mothers a hamster, etc, etc), or just grow up and tune out the BS (large bowl of porridge, $5 long time at Subway). That last one might require a higher maturity level than shown so far Dick.

A wise man once said there is a difference between reacting and responding. I wonder, which it will be here, and if you understand the difference?
Did I mention: Site Rules

So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one.

Might be true. But someone needs to tell YOU to stop being an *******. Since you didn't get the mod note was aimed in part at you, I'll be the blunt Clue-By-Four you need.

STOP. BEING. AN. ****ING. ***. ***!

If I need to make it simpler, just let me know.

Have a "Nice" day.

 

[Kframe]

That happens with adrenaline. The only way to train against it is to train with adrenaline (which is not the same as sparring, or many things sometimes thought to be the same), simply telling people to "be more aware", or even "check around you" isn't enough.

I don't want to pick a argument, but Chris Parker I have noticed in serveral threads that when you post in disagreement with someone, you never give details or examples, resulting in people trying to argue with you in a vain attempt to get you post more details other then your disagreement.

So for the rest of us can you give details as to what proper adrenaline response training, is comprised of and looks like? I for one know that sparring has indeed helped me to deal with pressure. Not that it is the only thing we do, but I feel it has helped me. So if you can post DETAILS about what proper(in your opinion) adrenaline response training is comprised of and looks like, I and many more would be more then grateful.

I think we can all agree that sparring is only one part of the equation. Honestly I look at sparring as a good way to get used to pressure, and I feel that it is also good conditioning.(for me anyways) I do not think things like static start drills and the endlessly useless one and three steps that TKD uses actually help prepare anyone for self defense.

Your one of the most well versed Martial Artists on this forum, and respected by many. I don't want to pick a fight, its just you post a disagreement, often repeatedly so and then don't follow up with details. So please, give us details.

 

[geezer]

I don't want to pick a argument, but Chris Parker I have noticed in serveral threads that when you post in disagreement with someone, you never give details or examples, resulting in people trying to argue with you in a vain attempt to get you post more details other then your disagreement.

Kframe are you nuts? Chris is the grandmaster of picking apart opposing viewpoints line by line, going after each perceived error in what can be annoyingly fine detail. He's thorough. He's merciless. And he never gives up. If I've learned one thing in the six-odd years I've been posting on this forum. Never, NEVER argue with Chris. :wink:

 

[Kframe]

Problem is geezer, when I see him post, I see a lot of words, that all basicly say the same thing. "I don't agree", then fails to actually provide substantive details and information.

When he does his line by line critique of peoples points, they only amount to him saying how wrong the poster is. Yet I never see him post any information about why they are wrong, with details of the why, not details of how much he disagrees.

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, missed this on my sabbatical...

Kframe, you did read the posts after the one you had a problem with, yeah? The ones where I answered other posters requests for clarification? If you have a question for me, just ask. If you don't understand my answers, ask again, I'll rephrase. But my posts that you read as just saying "you're wrong" aren't that... it's just that, in many cases, all I'm doing there is pointing out incorrect statements... which has the automatic implication that the alternate is more accurate. To say that the sky isn't green doesn't require a scientific explanation as to the various wavelengths of light as per their degree of dispersal throughout the atmosphere, surely. If something is wrong, it's wrong. You want clarification, ask.