An Observation on Pivoting

[Danny T]

I do prefer to pivot on the heels when striking, though, as it allows me to stay in range easier. I noticed that when I was doing some of the footwork we practiced in Pekiti, stepping offline and pivoting on the balls, I was consistently missing the target by a few inches, whereas I had been hitting with the tip before I moved, because I'm not used to pivoting there. And sure enough, when I did the same step and pivoted on the heels, I was hitting as I was before!

I don't guess we're allowed to pivot on the heels in Pekiti though, are we? Or are we?

Ohhh Yes, we do pivot on the heel. IF the situation is right for it.
Because of the blade we teach to make the first response moving the body, 'Get Off The Line Of Attack'.
As one grows with in training and learns to use the proper Parrys, Controls, Counter-attacks we tend to pivot more toward the heels 'If' that is best at that moment. What range are you working with, what length weapon are you using, what length weapon are you working against? All will be a deciding factor.

 

[KPM]

OK guys, let's be fair. Some of Dirty Dog's stance pictures do relate to WC, just not to the stances we're discussing. Gotta go to the pole form. For example, check out the first picture he posted above (a guy in a horse stance with his arm extended to the side) and compare it to our WC "Battle Punch" below (sorry for the dark photo. I had a hard time finding a good image on google... this one's of a guy here in my town associated with Sam Kwok, I believe):

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uWqJGCaDMNM/hqdefault.jpg

Sure. But that's not what I was talking about, and not what Maretmar was talking about when he started this thread. So what are we being fair about?

 

[KPM]

As for pivoting on the "K1 point," which I take to be the arc of the foot (not the ball or heel)...Physically, I'm failing to see how this is possible.

---K1 is an acupuncture point (Kidney-1) also known as "bubbling spring." It is located approximately 1 inch back from the ball of your foot and centered on the sole. So it is actually at the front part of the main arch of the foot and does make contact with the ground when you are putting weight through it. You should be able to find a picture of it pretty easily with a google search if that is still unclear.

The weight does not necessarily need to be directly over the pivot point.

---True! But when pivoting on your heels you have to off-load the front part of your foot enough to allow the toes to "swing" side to side. To do this you have to have the majority of your weight back on your heels, if only for the brief second that you are in motion with the pivot. If you didn't do this and kept the majority of the weight forward over your foot, then you wouldn't be able to overcome friction and get the toes to "swing." So for the brief second during the pivot when you have shifted your weight back onto your heels, your balance is vulnerable and your structure can be more easily broken.

 

[Vajramusti]

As for pivoting on the "K1 point," which I take to be the arc of the foot (not the ball or heel)...Physically, I'm failing to see how this is possible.

---K1 is an acupuncture point (Kidney-1) also known as "bubbling spring." It is located approximately 1 inch back from the ball of your foot and centered on the sole. So it is actually at the front part of the main arch of the foot and does make contact with the ground when you are putting weight through it. You should be able to find a picture of it pretty easily with a google search if that is still unclear.

The weight does not necessarily need to be directly over the pivot point.

---True! But when pivoting on your heels you have to off-load the front part of your foot enough to allow the toes to "swing" side to side. To do this you have to have the majority of your weight back on your heels, if only for the brief second that you are in motion with the pivot. If you didn't do this and kept the majority of the weight forward over your foot, then you wouldn't be able to overcome friction and get the toes to "swing." So for the brief second during the pivot when you have shifted your weight back onto your heels, your balance is vulnerable and your structure can be more easily broken.

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I differ on much of KPM's statement- but he can do whatever he wants,

 

[KPM]

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I differ on much of KPM's statement- but he can do whatever he wants,

Then please share with us where you differ and why. I am perfectly willing to hear an alternate explanation of the biomechanics if you think I have described it inaccurately. How would you describe it?

 

[Vajramusti]

Then please share with us where you differ and why. I am perfectly willing to hear an alternate explanation of the biomechanics if you think I have described it inaccurately. How would you describe it?

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Not to be tedious. I keep the soles of my feet flat on the ground. The whole foot helps control my balance and stability. If I pivot for power generation both from the slightly bent knees to the ankles and toes turn together. I do not turn on the acupuncture K1 point which is slightly buried past the balls of the feet.-an important point for aspects of chi flow

. I do NOT lean back on the heels. The toes are part of the system of balance..The leg bones are over the heels. The slightest pivot of the heels, almost invisible if I am wearing shoes can help create great spiraling power through the body's axis and available to the arms.

These are not mere words. I have handled charges by top quality wrestlers.

My university- Arizona State has one of the top ten exercise science-kinesiology departments in the country. Years ago as a service-not by job as an associate dean or a professor- I taught an introductory wing chun class for them. Their top biomechanics people found no fault with my mechanics. So much for proof by authority.
Real proof- it works for me and my kung fu brothers and sisters-Danny, Dan, Van, Corina

Ip Man, WSL, HKM, AF all turned on their heels.

If K1 point, balls of the feet or other work for you- great.

I don't have missionary compulsions.

Of course I am talking about development. In applications you do what you need to do.

 

[KPM]

Not to be tedious. I keep the soles of my feet flat on the ground. The whole foot helps control my balance and stability. If I pivot for power generation both from the slightly bent knees to the ankles and toes turn together. I do not turn on the acupuncture K1 point which is slightly buried past the balls of the feet.-an important point for aspects of chi flow

---Understood. But does the front part of your foot not swing side to side as you pivot on your heels? Regardless of the fact that your feet maintain contact with the ground during the pivot, you have to transfer more than 50% of your weight back onto your heels to off-load the front part of your feet enough to overcome friction so that the foot can slide across the ground.

. I do NOT lean back on the heels. The toes are part of the system of balance..The leg bones are over the heels. The slightest pivot of the heels, almost invisible if I am wearing shoes can help create great spiraling power through the body's axis and available to the arms.

---No, I never said leaning backwards. Only that you have to transfer your weight back over your heels. How else would the gravitational line go through the heels as you said before? And no doubt the toes are still engaged in controlling balance. But their ability to do so is somewhat reduced when they are THE part of the foot that is moving the most during the pivot! Isn't that just logical? If your toes are swinging their ability to help maintain balance is reduced compared to if they were staying relatively in the same spot. If you have to transfer your weight back onto your heels, even if only for a second, compared to leaving your weight forward over the arch of your foot....for that second when your weight is further back and your toes have a lessened ability to control your balance because they are "swinging"....at that point you are more vulnerable.

These are not mere words. I have handled charges by top quality wrestlers.

---And as I said before, people that practice this can make it work well. And of course I would include you in that category! But that does not mean it is "optimal" from a biomechanics perspective.

My university- Arizona State has one of the top ten exercise science-kinesiology departments in the country. Years ago as a service-not by job as an associate dean or a professor- I taught an introductory wing chun class for them. Their top biomechanics people found no fault with my mechanics. So much for proof by authority.

---Did their "top biomechanics people" know Wing Chun? Did they see the alternative to the way your pivot for comparison? If not, that doesn't prove anything. Look Joy, I'm just talking simple common sense. Please point out to me where my explanation doesn't make sense to you.


Real proof- it works for me and my kung fu brothers and sisters-Danny, Dan, Van, Corina

Ip Man, WSL, HKM, AF all turned on their heels.

---And again, proof by authority doesn't mean is it the "optimal" way to do it. Just that it is the "traditional" way to do it! Fung Chun didn't do it that way, Yuen Kay Shan didn't do it that way, Sum Nun didn't do it that way, Henry Mui doesn't do it that way, etc.....

---I don't have missionary compulsions either. And everyone is free to do things as they please. Its just disheartening to see so many people willing to ignore common logic and simple biomechanics because "sifu sez."

 

[Marnetmar]

I'd also like to point out that, if you look at Yip Man's Foshan students along with Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu, Yip Man probably didn't always pivot on his heels. Not trying to fall back on the "appeal to old ****" fallacy, just pointing it out.

 

[geezer]

I'd also like to point out that, if you look at Yip Man's Foshan students along with Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu, Yip Man probably didn't always pivot on his heels. Not trying to fall back on the "appeal to old ****" fallacy, just pointing it out.

Grandmaster Yip turned however he felt like. It's the rest of us who argue and imitate what we feel is the "correct" way. As far as Joy not caring to engage further in this old debate yet again ... can you blame him? He learned an effective method that was used by his well respected sifu and si-gung, a method learned from GM Yip. And we've been over this stuff countless times. So, enough is enough!

Some of the rest of us use different methods. The method I use also works, it was used effectively by my sifu, and by his instructors, Leung Sheung and Yip Man. That's enough too.

....Except that I happen to like these kinds of discussions.

 

[JPinAZ]

LOL, really, if someone from outside WC were to read thru this thread, this whole argument would appear quite a bit silly with how miniscule of details are being argued, or for how long this is being debated

In WC, as in any other physical activity, we are constantly shifting pressure and how our COG/weight transfers through our feet all the time when moving (and also when not whne we are supposedly 'standing still' - it's how we maintain balance). In 'reality' when under pressure you're never going to do it 'only this way or that way' - you're body is going to naturally do what it has to to maintain balance, weight distribution and to receive/send energy. We're not robots! There is no possible way we will only do it one single way. We're constantly going to be using all parts of the foot - toes, ball of foot, heals, outside/inside edge, etc. It shouldn't really be this complicated. Why is it WC guys always tend to do that?

Oh, and just for the record:

---No, I never said leaning backwards.

For it to go through the heels, you would have to be leaning back

Lol - carry on, if you must

 

[geezer]

Why is it WC guys always tend to do that?

Hmmm, my guess is OCD?

 

[KPM]

Oh, and just for the record:

Ok. You got me there! "Shifting the weight back" would have been a better statement!

But really guys....Joy made a comment about the gravitational line that I disagreed with. So I pointed that out. Then I made the effort to explain WHY I disagreed...not once, but twice. That is what makes for discussions! No?

But Joy (and JP and "Dirty Dog" to an extent) has said essentially "No, I don't care what you think I disagree"....but WITHOUT explaining why he disagrees other than "because that's the way we do it" or explaining where they think my logic is wrong. That doesn't make for a good discussion.

And of course weight transfers, COG, gravitational lines....these are all dynamic when you are moving around. But they do occur within certain parameters. What I have described is pretty basic and pretty "baseline." I welcome anyone to explain where they think the logic of what I have said is wrong.

 

[geezer]

...But Joy (and JP and "Dirty Dog" to an extent) has said essentially "No, I don't care what you think I disagree"....but WITHOUT explaining why he disagrees... I welcome anyone to explain where they think the logic of what I have said is wrong.

Geez, KPM, you must be one of those guys who isn't satisfied by just being right.

You want everyone else to know it too!

In my experience, the first part ....you know, "getting it right" is doable. The second part, on the other hand, is asking a lot. Maybe that's why really wise men, ...the truly "enlightened", laugh a lot.

 

[KPM]

You make an excellent point Steve! ;-)

 

[wckf92]

Oh, and just for the record:

KPM said: ↑
---No, I never said leaning backwards.