truly incredible martial arts clip

[HKphooey]

Martial=combat, arts=you know. But when a style becomes 10% martial and 90% art, is it accurate to call it martial arts. Or, is the martial just thrown in there for ego purposes so the students think they can fight.
Im sure Capoera in its pure form is a real martial art, but its rare. I just dont like how martial is thrown in all the time when thre is very little martial. Its like those floor demos where everyone is doing there flippy doe martial arts. That is not MARTIAL arts, its performing arts. They just choose to throw in martial so they can get the respect of a fighter when it most likely is not deserved.

The term martial also means soldierly, befitting a warrior. Read The Art of War (or any other of classic miltary strategy literature) and I hope you will see that there is more to war and combat than the actual combat.

 

[tkd_jen]

Thank you for sharing! It is so interesting to see another style in action.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The term martial also means soldierly, befitting a warrior. Read The Art of War (or any other of classic miltary strategy literature) and I hope you will see that there is more to war and combat than the actual combat.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

- Sun Tzu Bing Fa

 

[Drag'n]

I understand where you're comming from De Lamar.
I trained in capoeira for a year or so. Thoroughly enjoyed it. A really challenging and beautiful art.
But did it teach me how to fight? I would have to say no.
Sure there are some pretty powerfull kicks, and sweeps, and some usable defensive movements. But fighting is alot more than just being able to perform techniques. We never practised realistic applications of techniques. We hardly even touched each other.
I know 1 guy from our group entered an open karate tournament and got his leg broken.
Unfortunately most of the guys in my group had little previous MA experience and had no real understanding of what a real fight was like. They thought they could use their techniques efectively against other MArtists, without practising in the context of a realistic fight. Most capoeiristas just arent willing to face this though.
I'm sure there are teachers around who know more about how to apply their techs in a realistic situation, but how many teach and practise it?
So if you're looking for fighting skills I wouldnt recommend capoeira.
Does that mean it shouldnt be called a MA? I dunno. There are plenty of "MA"out there that I wouldnt reccommend for fighting skills. Even though they claim to teach SD.
The term MA is a label attached to practically any art which has fighting like movements, so I tend not to take it so literally. Just a label anyway.
So long as we are all happy doing what we're doing, who cares what others choose to practise.

 

[Henderson]

Thanks for the clip.

 

[matt.m]

you kinow I believe that this is ever bit a martial art. To say different would not be fair to the practitioners. Ballet is not a martial art, there is no part of ballet that if connected to another in combat would even draw a bloody nose. However, if these people would connect it would be bad news for the person on the receiving end.

 

[HKphooey]

Just came across this thread concerning Tai Chi and pretty much the same discussion.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9782

 

[Flying Crane]

I have recieved a bad rep point for my comment. Just so you know, I will cry about this.:waah:

For the record, it wasn't me. I haven't handed out a bad rep point to anyone yet. I think bad rep points are a little silly and unnecessary, and you'd have to be acting like a real neanderthal before I might consider doing it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand where you're comming from De Lamar.
I trained in capoeira for a year or so. Thoroughly enjoyed it. A really challenging and beautiful art.
But did it teach me how to fight? I would have to say no.
Sure there are some pretty powerfull kicks, and sweeps, and some usable defensive movements. But fighting is alot more than just being able to perform techniques. We never practised realistic applications of techniques. We hardly even touched each other.
I know 1 guy from our group entered an open karate tournament and got his leg broken.
Unfortunately most of the guys in my group had little previous MA experience and had no real understanding of what a real fight was like. They thought they could use their techniques efectively against other MArtists, without practising in the context of a realistic fight. Most capoeiristas just arent willing to face this though.
I'm sure there are teachers around who know more about how to apply their techs in a realistic situation, but how many teach and practise it?
So if you're looking for fighting skills I wouldnt recommend capoeira.
Does that mean it shouldnt be called a MA? I dunno. There are plenty of "MA"out there that I wouldnt reccommend for fighting skills. Even though they claim to teach SD.
The term MA is a label attached to practically any art which has fighting like movements, so I tend not to take it so literally. Just a label anyway.
So long as we are all happy doing what we're doing, who cares what others choose to practise.

You've got some good points here. Today, capoeira is practiced mostly for the Roda, which is the game of capoeira. To be able to use it for a fight requires a different mind-set and approach to training, and I agree, most people who train the art today do not do this in a way to adequately develop dependable fighting skills. However, the art itself, when done appropriately, can develop some pretty tough fighters. It's important to understand the difference.

 

[capoeirascience]

this discussion went off! let me tell you that in all the forums that i have been this has been by far the best in terms of education, attitude and the volume of discussion. big up to martial talk.com

there is only one thing that I can add at the moment. someone said earlier ..most capoeiristas would not be willing to face combat situations. this is true outside of Brazil but inside they often play a hard game. to see this in action, ending with a guy knocking another out go here
http://mapage.noos.fr/d1autremonde/
click on the middle clip.

outside of Brazil capoeira is popularised as non-contact. I have even seen a 'false' teacher on TV saying this. it is plain wrong. at beginner level it certainly should be non-contact. as you get more advanced you can begin to apply pressure to other advanced players, as I know the guy in the above clip who delivired that knock-out i feel safe in saying his opponent brought it on but could not keep it up and that's how it ended. you reap what you sow in capoeira.

compared to what goes on inside Brazil, 99% of capoeira outisde Brazil is beginner level, this is changing and the level of contact will rise in tandem with the level of expertise. that is not to say more violence is needed in capoeira. by the time one is able to use capoeira effectively in the roda (capoeira circle) or outside you will have hopefully learnt enough to be a calm and non-violent person in control of your emotions aswell as your body.. as a true martial artist should be.

 

[Nemesis]

I know capoeira for quite some time now, i have a pretty good grasp of it's background and of it's most common technics. But i've never seen any clip with streetwise aplications, do you have access to any?
And by the way, was that a grappling move i saw in that clip? Is capoeira starting to include grappling?

I have recieved a bad rep point for my comment. Just so you know, I will cry about this.:waah:

What's a bad rep point, does it has anything to do with those green dots in the upper right corner?

 

[capoeirascience]

in "Cordao De Ouro", the organisation that I train with, there is NO grappling... officially speaking. however that clip involved capoeiristas from CDO. sometimes when the action heats up people get over excited and just do whatever. you have to realise that what is happening in the roda is real and heightened emotions, adrenaline etc. play a part. loss of emotional control is considered bad style and reflects poorly on the players involved.

However! In several schools of capoeira grappling is condoned, jiu-jitsu style groundwork plays a part in "Abada" Capoeira's style and they use strangleholds, arm-bars etc. I think this is madness, it should stay within jiu-jitsu and if anyone ever grappled me in the roda I would leave the game! but each to their own..

traditionally capoeira had NO grappling except for extreme or street situations. capoeira is a martial-arts dance fight game of skill and cunning, not brute force or direct violence.

 

[Flying Crane]

However! In several schools of capoeira grappling is condoned, jiu-jitsu style groundwork plays a part in "Abada" Capoeira's style and they use strangleholds, arm-bars etc. I think this is madness, it should stay within jiu-jitsu and if anyone ever grappled me in the roda I would leave the game! but each to their own..

I trained with the ABADA affiliate school in San Francisco, and it definitely does NOT condone grappling and groundwork like you suggest.

I agree with your observations that sometimes when things get heated, people end up trying to wrestle it out, but at that point they are no longer doing capoeira. Usually the game gets broken up so that it doesn't degenerate further because capoeira is not done this way. Sometimes some of the guys have cross trained in jujitsu, but it is inappropriate to bring jujitsu into the roda. In a real self defense situation it would be appropriate to mix them as needed, but not in the roda.

Capoeira does have a variety of sweeps, trips, and scissors takedowns, but this is not done in a jujitsu way.

 

[FuriousGeorge]

whoa...I've never actually watched capeoera clips before...I bet learning to move like that would really help my BJJ.

 

[capoeirascience]

ok flying crane, the school that you trained at did not condone groundwork. sorry to mention Abada.

last weekend I was sent a document from an international capoeira organisation, it was vast, comprehensive, detailed all in excellent - a song compendium. however at the back there was a list of moves, within this the following featured.
Mata-leao = Rear strangle hold
Chave de braco = Arm lock
Triangulo = Triangle choke

I cannot put the song compendium on my site because of this! As we know capoeira uses cunning and skill to 'defeat' an opponent, that does not include forcing the other to submit through lack of oxygen or under the duress of pain. this belongs in another art or several other arts (which I respect and enjoy watching). In Brazil jiu-jitsu has crept into the Roda too many times already! that is my point.

 

[Flying Crane]

ok flying crane, the school that you trained at did not condone groundwork. sorry to mention Abada.

last weekend I was sent a document from an international capoeira organisation, it was vast, comprehensive, detailed all in excellent - a song compendium. however at the back there was a list of moves, within this the following featured.
Mata-leao = Rear strangle hold
Chave de braco = Arm lock
Triangulo = Triangle choke

I cannot put the song compendium on my site because of this! As we know capoeira uses cunning and skill to 'defeat' an opponent, that does not include forcing the other to submit through lack of oxygen or under the duress of pain. this belongs in another art or several other arts (which I respect and enjoy watching). In Brazil jiu-jitsu has crept into the Roda too many times already! that is my point.

Very good points, and don't worry about the ABADA issue, it's no big deal.

I can't speak for these particular techniques. I have never seen them done (or at least condoned) within the context of the roda. This kind of thing breaks the rhythm of the game and destroys the flow and the physical dialogue that makes capoeira so unique as a martial art. In my experience, when the roda turns into a grappling match, if it doesnt break on it's own within about 5-10 seconds and return to capoeira play, the clinch is broken up by the Mestre and the players are either allowed to start over, or leave the circle and let the next two play while they cool their heads and calm down.

Now that being said, I have seen the occasional "finishing" technique pointed out as a possible way of taking control of an individual after taking them down with a tesoro/leg scissors, for example. This was in the context of training the technique, and not within the roda. The purpose was, I believe, to illustrate how capoeira has usefulness on the street in a real altercation, but the approach and solution to a real altercation would be different from what goes on in the roda.

Capoeira had a very violent past, and was used with deadly intent during the colonial era in Brazil. As such, it was a true fighting art, and probably had free use of any of a number of violent finishing techniques including arm bars, chokes, and the like. But it has changed into something different that fits within our modern and current society. It has become somthing that is different from what it once was. I believe it can still be a very effective fighting technique, but what might be taboo today within the roda was not necessarily always so.

 

[Flying Crane]

last weekend I was sent a document from an international capoeira organisation, it was vast, comprehensive, detailed all in excellent - a song compendium. however at the back there was a list of moves, within this the following featured.
Mata-leao = Rear strangle hold
Chave de braco = Arm lock
Triangulo = Triangle choke

By the way, from what organization did this come? If it was from someone within ABADA, I would be surprised. ABADA is, however, quite large, with many players. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have crosstrained in jujitsu and are experimenting with ways to bring some of that into a self-defense aspect of capoeira. But again, I have never seen this type of thing stressed within the roda itself.

Some people who were prominent individuals within ABADA group have left the group, and perhaps some of them are bringing in elements of jujitsu. But my instructor, who has been a direct student of Mestre Camisa (the founder and leader of ABADA) since she was young, and is a senior level instructor (red cord) in ABADA, has never taught capoeira with a jujitsu-type emphasis in technique. Granted, Camisa is known for experimenting with the art. He is always looking for ways to improve things, so it is possible that some of these changes have happened and I have been unaware of them. I have been disconnected from capoeira for several years so it is possible that I am simply unaware of it. I am trying to reconnect, and attend training sessions on a regular basis again, so if these changes have been made, perhaps I will become aware of them. But again, I would be surprised if any of this was being done in the roda because it just doesn't make sense in that context. But it could be done outside the roda, within a truer "fighting" context of the art.