Training

[Nabakatsu]

Hello there! I was curious about several aspects of potential training.
Firstly I was curious about the muscles involved in wing tzun punching, there are other strikes I preform as well tho, that require a low elbow.. seems like sometimes I'm even using parts of my back beyond shoulder range.. if anyone has some good ways to train them preferably without equipment/assistant that would be awesome!

I'm having a very hard time with my wrist flexibility.. my teacher was surprised how tense my arm was when I was fully bent out, been doing what he showed me, but was curious if anyone had any arm flexibility ideas,

I'm really trying to strengthen my legs as well, I'd really like power in my kicks and a solid stance, My brother is coming in from out of town shortly and I want to get in shape so we can spar! -cackles maniacally-

Any other additional thoughts about WT training are more than welcome!

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Hi! I would say that you should use mostly triceps in your punches as they are the muscles that are the most dominant in a straight punch. Use of any other muscles like biceps for example will do exactly the opposite as what you want to achieve in a punch as biceps/triceps are antagonistic muscles and work against echother. You should also use your shoulder muscles as little as posible; there is no need for shoulder tension when striking elbow down and will also do the opposite to what you want to do in a punch. You do use shoulder muscles to a degree ofcourse as you have to raise the punch and then extend it with the tricpeps.

This is not my area of expertise but it is important to note that there are many parts of muscles; I think there are 3 parts of triceps(its the biggest muscle in your arm-bigger then bicep usualy), there are also probably more parts of shoulder muscles. It would be interesting to hear from someone who trains in WC and has knowledge in this area about things more specificly.

About your comment that you are using your back thats a good thing. In WC you want to achieve such a body structure that you involve most of the bigger(stronger) groups of muscles in your punch. Thats what basicly WC structure is. You want to use your legs, hip, back, arm muscles in your punch in opposition to someone untrained who probably uses only his arm muscles and the force hits his shoulder(in WC it hits your heel).

Some exercises that would be helpful are:

Punching in the air for hundreds of times(basicly as much as you can). Try to do it as relaxed as possible and concentrate only on the muscles that are in work in your WC punch. With multiple repetitions the muscles that are unnescesery will get tired and you will notice that unnecesery muscle tension easier. With months of practice your punching will get more relaxed(in the sense you will only be using the muscles needed to perform a move) and thus faster and stronger.

For building up your wrist/pucnh straingth I would sudgest pushups on fists with elbows in(in such a manner as you do the WC punch). Just holding your structure with arms locked, elbows in and with fists on the floor is a good exercise too. Do it so your feet, back and head are lined up. As a total beginer in these exercise you should be able to hold it for about 1min30sec-2min.

For wrist flexibility, strong stance(and thus good structure) and kicks do the forms as much and as slowely as you can. You train wrist flexibility with Huen saos and kicks in Chum Kiu(you can practice them on your own too ofcourse). I would also like to say that with kicks it's similarly as with the punches; you will achieve power with relaxation and proper structure more than anything. Try repetitions as relaxed as posible with correct structure. As with punches focus only on the muscles that are necesery in performing the move.

Hope that helps! How long have you been training EBMAS?

 

[Nabakatsu]

Thanks for your reply! some good information there, I had been doing various things, some of which you've shared, some new ideas too, I will have to try practicing my kicks more slowly, and huen sao for flexibility.. I do that a bit just messing around but never thought to do it a lot.. I'll give that a go too!
Been in ebmas for roughly 4 months now,

 

[futsaowingchun]

Hello there! I was curious about several aspects of potential training.
Firstly I was curious about the muscles involved in wing tzun punching, there are other strikes I preform as well tho, that require a low elbow.. seems like sometimes I'm even using parts of my back beyond shoulder range.. if anyone has some good ways to train them preferably without equipment/assistant that would be awesome!

I'm having a very hard time with my wrist flexibility.. my teacher was surprised how tense my arm was when I was fully bent out, been doing what he showed me, but was curious if anyone had any arm flexibility ideas,

I'm really trying to strengthen my legs as well, I'd really like power in my kicks and a solid stance, My brother is coming in from out of town shortly and I want to get in shape so we can spar! -cackles maniacally-

Any other additional thoughts about WT training are more than welcome!

The Huen sao motions in the SLT form is very good to strech the muscle and tendons. And the 3 payers to Buddha is also very good to strech the muscles and tendons as well.

 

[mook jong man]

I think its mostly the triceps that are involved with assistance from the lats . If you look at people that have been doing Wing Chun for quite a while they will have decent triceps and the typical V- shaped Wing Chun back , even the women will develop this to a certain degree .

I suspect it is from all the punching and time spent doing Chi Sau which in itself is great training for the triceps because of the constant forward force . In my younger days I tried many things to develop power in punching and kicking , I tried heavy weights low reps , light weights and high reps .

But you know what , none of it helped a bit . Sure it made me look fitter , and at least look the part of a Kung Fu man , but it did not help me to generate more power in striking . I still do moderate weight training these days but that is for health reasons and because I enjoy it .

The traditional answer and the one I believe in these days is that you need to practice The Sil Lim Tau form religiously , the foundation of everything needed to learn to generate striking power is in that form . The SLT is all about relaxation , and learning to switch off and activate different muscle groups at will .

The reason you can't punch hard is because you haven't learnt to relax your biceps and shoulders , these act as a brake , sort of like trying to drive your car fast with the hand brake on . The same thing is happening with your legs , you would have enough power in your legs now for kicking , but you carry too much tension in your thighs for speedy and powerful kicking , not to mention also that your stance is not yet developed .

As you spend more time practicing SLT and Chi Sau in your stance this will stretch the thigh muscles and help them to relax . When you do the form try to be aware of any tension in the muscles specifically the shoulders , the pectorals , the biceps and your quads .

You have to consciously try and relax them , don't be afraid when you are piercing forward with your Tan Sau to check your pectoral on that side to see if it is nice and floppy and relaxed with your spare hand . Do the same thing as you go forward and back with your Wu Sau and Fook Sau , check that bicep with your other hand to see if it is soft , it is a little bit more difficult to free of tension because it has to hold your arm up , but it can be done .

Touch your thighs are they hard as a rock , use only enough energy to hold your body up , try to relax them and be springy in your legs . With your wrists all you need to do is strict Huen Sau's when you do it make sure your hand is flat and keep it flat as it rotates around , you should really feel it in the wrist .

In fact I do Huen Sau's all the time even when I'm not doing the form , if I'm bored , or waiting for something . People look at you a bit funny but who cares .
SLT is important as is Chi Sau for learning to relax , but if you want to be able to punch and kick hard then the law of specificity dictates that you must practice punching and kicking on a object .

These days most of my training is solo so I use a wall bag for striking ( don't do elbows on a wall bag it can cause the brain to shake too much ) and I use a heavy bag partially filled with sand for kicking that I can raise or lower depending if I'm working on waist height kicks or low kicks .

But if you don't have that stuff then just buy a focus mitt and a kick shield and get some one to hold them for you , the benefit of that is that the holder can give you feed back as to whether the strike or kick penetrated or not .

Without exception your most heavy and penetrating strikes will be done from a good stance and while staying very relaxed .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay training With out Equipment?

Punching Power.
~Push Ups work your way up to hundred. Then if you want true power work your way up to one thousand a day. Thats why Sihing does. I am not a thousand. I do too much other stuff to focus on just punching power...

~But I do a thousand punches

Practice Punching slowly maybe an extra one hundred and focus on all parts of the arm and hand moving in unison also focus on the turning of dan tien and focus on shoulders, waist and hips moving with the punch to generate power.


With Equipment add a punching bag 100lbs of sand and wall bag. Or buy two pairs of really thick thermal gloves and practice punching a tree.


Wrist flexibility:

Bruce lee had some excellent strecthes for the wrist.

~Grab one hand with the other twist the hand inward with the fingers going outward. To get more of strecth sink the hand slightly downward. Do so for both hands.

~Practice slowly rotating your hands maybe 20 times in each direction twice a day.

~Bend one hand back with the other hand by trying to bend the fingers backward and push your elbow in.

There are also some hand strechtes on floor my sifu taught me I am not sure how to share them though! I can not put them into words.

With Equipment use the chinese medicine balls or baoding balls and twirl them in your hands for like ten minutes or more periodically through out the day.

Here are videos

Kicks
As for kicks. I would try to doing each kick you know one hundred times in air. Then put on some crappy shoes. and Find two trees. one really big tree that you can not shake or move even a little. Like a tree wider than your body. Practice kicking it one hundred on each leg with your most powerful kicks. Maybe front kicks and side kicks. If your shins are condition enough then try round houses. Also find a small tree that you can shake by palm striking but not break with a kick. Then practice power kicking on that tree and the more you can make it shake the more your power increases each day.

Also try squats.
Sitting in horse stance for five to ten minutes a day.
Strecthing the legs.
Chi Kung exercises for the legs.
One leg squats.
Snake creeps down stance.
Practice YGKYM stance for Twenty minutes with the knees touching! Real extreme deep bend. Maybe try holding a tennis ball between your knees.
Practice stomping the ground several times like twenty to fifty on each leg each day.

Also practice Focus kicks in the air. Where you kick really really slow concentrating on each joint and body movement and muscle. Along with the pivot of the foot and jing of the hips. Visualize the power coming out of the ground shooting out of your foot as you fully extend the kick slowly.

I hope this little bit of information helps you?

Hello there! I was curious about several aspects of potential training.
Firstly I was curious about the muscles involved in wing tzun punching, there are other strikes I preform as well tho, that require a low elbow.. seems like sometimes I'm even using parts of my back beyond shoulder range.. if anyone has some good ways to train them preferably without equipment/assistant that would be awesome!

I'm having a very hard time with my wrist flexibility.. my teacher was surprised how tense my arm was when I was fully bent out, been doing what he showed me, but was curious if anyone had any arm flexibility ideas,

I'm really trying to strengthen my legs as well, I'd really like power in my kicks and a solid stance, My brother is coming in from out of town shortly and I want to get in shape so we can spar! -cackles maniacally-

Any other additional thoughts about WT training are more than welcome!

 

[Nabakatsu]

To FutSao, thanks, I've been doing huen sao, will increase the amount

To Mook Jong Man, Religious practice of Siu Nim Tao seems like a great idea, I've heard this from many people, I've been doing 30 mns a day or so, I may increase the ammount to an hour or so.
You broke down the ways in which I can perfect my SNT in a very professional manner, I thank you deeply for these insights!
I ride the bus to my class, it takes about an hour and a half, I practice siu nim tao a lot on my way there, always get quite a few looks myself, someone even jokingly called me donny yen the other day.
Thanks for all the good info! much appreciated!

To YoshiYahu, I just started doing push ups yesterday, I can manage 100 fairly easily now.. easily enough.. not all at once mind you, lol 20 every hour or so.. I may just try and be able to do them all at once and than call that, that. I have some nice gloves for punching walls and trees and what not.. it's like -25 outside without counting the wind.. so.. I'm kinda waiting on that.
As far as wrist flexibility goes, I think a bunch of huen saos, the push-ups and press hand against a wall too. I may have to dig up my chinese medicine balls sometime too.. btw.. those aikido stretches look awesome! going to have to give those a shot too
I've been doing a fair ammount of stance work, standing on 1 leg by far is the hardest thing I've been doing, I can hardly get thru 1 round of snt.
I've done leg stomping a lot too.. ever since I saw shaolin temple strikes back.. from ninja theatre:

I will practice focus kicks now too! thanks for all your suggestions, very helpful!


Also curious if/when forearms would ever come into play.. could they aid punching power, or assist with wrist strength.. what are your ideas? thanks!

 

[Seeker]

If you're looking for further info on body weight exercises, one book that I like a lot is The Naked Warrior by Pavel Tsatsouline.

I went from doing 25 to 75 pushups non stop in about a month using this book, no lie.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Hey, thanks seeker, I'm kind of a low budget "wtf let's just do it!" type of guy, at least as far as exercise goes, probably not the best thing, but I'm sure I can get my push ups in that range fairly soon, glad to hear a brother has found success in his practice none the less!

 

[geezer]

I think its mostly the triceps that are involved with assistance from the lats . If you look at people that have been doing Wing Chun for quite a while they will have decent triceps and the typical V- shaped Wing Chun back , even the women will develop this to a certain degree .

I suspect it is from all the punching and time spent doing Chi Sau which in itself is great training for the triceps because of the constant forward force . In my younger days I tried many things to develop power in punching and kicking , I tried heavy weights low reps , light weights and high reps .

But you know what , none of it helped a bit . Sure it made me look fitter , and at least look the part of a Kung Fu man , but it did not help me to generate more power in striking...

Mook, you are so right. I can do a lot of push ups for a guy in his fifties... over 100 at a time (if you aren't to picky about quality)... and it hasn't made my punches any more explosive. But if I'm ever attacked, I can drop to the floor and impress my assailant with my ability to bob up and down at a dizzying pace!

As far as the muscles involved, the front of the deltoid lifts and extends the upper arm, the triceps extends the lower arm and the muscles on the upper side of the forearm, aligned with the thumb, snap the wrist upward at impact, allowing the energy to exit through the bottom three knuckles of the fist. I have no idea why the lats would be involved, except that they seem to tense up as you pull your elbow into center... and that is important. Regardless, what Mook said about the "V-shaped Wing Chun back" is really true. So there must be something to it. But regarding power, what others have already said about relaxation is really important, and loosening your joints especially from the wrist through the shoulder. But I'm sort of taking this on faith and observation of others, since I'm constitutionally a stiff jointed person. Flexibility is a huge struggle for me.

 

[qwksilver61]

I was taught from the beginning,to refrain from any push ups,and concentrate entirely on the air punches and the wall bag.Two cents....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I think getting some equipment may be in order there?

Well we do some things. Like do wrist rollers. and we also use a steel pipe and twist it outwards and inwards. An also you can use the perfect push ups device. There are other things that we do but you may not see the point. One of which I hold two three liter bottles in both hands gripping them with the fingers and holding them for five minutes or more. The liter bottles are filled with water...over time you can gradutate to sand. I started off when i was younger with apple juice jars. An also we did exercises with the bricks.

To FutSao, thanks, I've been doing huen sao, will increase the amount

To Mook Jong Man, Religious practice of Siu Nim Tao seems like a great idea, I've heard this from many people, I've been doing 30 mns a day or so, I may increase the ammount to an hour or so.
You broke down the ways in which I can perfect my SNT in a very professional manner, I thank you deeply for these insights!
I ride the bus to my class, it takes about an hour and a half, I practice siu nim tao a lot on my way there, always get quite a few looks myself, someone even jokingly called me donny yen the other day.
Thanks for all the good info! much appreciated!

To YoshiYahu, I just started doing push ups yesterday, I can manage 100 fairly easily now.. easily enough.. not all at once mind you, lol 20 every hour or so.. I may just try and be able to do them all at once and than call that, that. I have some nice gloves for punching walls and trees and what not.. it's like -25 outside without counting the wind.. so.. I'm kinda waiting on that.
As far as wrist flexibility goes, I think a bunch of huen saos, the push-ups and press hand against a wall too. I may have to dig up my chinese medicine balls sometime too.. btw.. those aikido stretches look awesome! going to have to give those a shot too
I've been doing a fair ammount of stance work, standing on 1 leg by far is the hardest thing I've been doing, I can hardly get thru 1 round of snt.
I've done leg stomping a lot too.. ever since I saw shaolin temple strikes back.. from ninja theatre:

I will practice focus kicks now too! thanks for all your suggestions, very helpful!


Also curious if/when forearms would ever come into play.. could they aid punching power, or assist with wrist strength.. what are your ideas? thanks!

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, you are so right. I can do a lot of push ups for a guy in his fifties... over 100 at a time (if you aren't to picky about quality)... and it hasn't made my punches any more explosive. But if I'm ever attacked, I can drop to the floor and impress my assailant with my ability to bob up and down at a dizzying pace!

As far as the muscles involved, the front of the deltoid lifts and extends the upper arm, the triceps extends the lower arm and the muscles on the upper side of the forearm, aligned with the thumb, snap the wrist upward at impact, allowing the energy to exit through the bottom three knuckles of the fist. I have no idea why the lats would be involved, except that they seem to tense up as you pull your elbow into center... and that is important. Regardless, what Mook said about the "V-shaped Wing Chun back" is really true. So there must be something to it. But regarding power, what others have already said about relaxation is really important, and loosening your joints especially from the wrist through the shoulder. But I'm sort of taking this on faith and observation of others, since I'm constitutionally a stiff jointed person. Flexibility is a huge struggle for me.

Yeah you are correct I messed up , the lats are involved in the retraction phase of the punch , and any cutting down , or latching movements , not the outward phase of the punch . In fact they would be one of the muscles you would have to relax to get the most acelleration in your strike .

Over a hundred push ups at anyones age , let alone some one in their fifties is a damn awesome effort man , how long did it take to get to that level of endurance . My current fascination is with pull ups , I built a pull up bar out the back , very versatile piece of equipment. You can do your abs and everything off it . But alas I have plateaued at 7 consecutive strict reps and can't seem to get past it .

Nabakatsu , you mentioned about forearm and grip strength , all those exercises that Yoshi mentioned are excellent . I am personally not a big grip and forearm strength fanatic because it takes up a lot of time if you are going to do a mutitude of exercises .

I mostly just do a lot of the stick rotation exercises that I learnt when I did Doce Pares , Geezer would know about these warm up exercises , they can really fry your forearms .

The only other grip / forearm work I do is to loop two old towels over the pull up bar , grip each towel and attempt to do a couple of pull ups or as is more the case I just try and hang there for time .

When you do this your hands will be screamimg and your forearms will blow up like Popeye , this seems to give me all the grip strength I need to choke somebody out , or to be able to hold somebodies wrist in a vice- like grip when they have a knife in their hand , which in my opinion is probably the best reason for developing grip strength .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

My Sifu had a pull up bar installed on the ceiling of his basement. We use to crank out twenty at a time then do push ups then do bricks then do water jars then start over. At first it was torture but after while it got easiser. But actually he went on easy on us. My Sihing said when he took karate years ago they use to do 1000 push ups and 1000 sit ups a day. I was like man thats crazy.

Yeah you are correct I messed up , the lats are involved in the retraction phase of the punch , and any cutting down , or latching movements , not the outward phase of the punch . In fact they would be one of the muscles you would have to relax to get the most acelleration in your strike .

Over a hundred push ups at anyones age , let alone some one in their fifties is a damn awesome effort man , how long did it take to get to that level of endurance . My current fascination is with pull ups , I built a pull up bar out the back , very versatile piece of equipment. You can do your abs and everything off it . But alas I have plateaued at 7 consecutive strict reps and can't seem to get past it .

Nabakatsu , you mentioned about forearm and grip strength , all those exercises that Yoshi mentioned are excellent . I am personally not a big grip and forearm strength fanatic because it takes up a lot of time if you are going to do a mutitude of exercises .

I mostly just do a lot of the stick rotation exercises that I learnt when I did Doce Pares , Geezer would know about these warm up exercises , they can really fry your forearms .

The only other grip / forearm work I do is to loop two old towels over the pull up bar , grip each towel and attempt to do a couple of pull ups or as is more the case I just try and hang there for time .

When you do this your hands will be screamimg and your forearms will blow up like Popeye , this seems to give me all the grip strength I need to choke somebody out , or to be able to hold somebodies wrist in a vice- like grip when they have a knife in their hand , which in my opinion is probably the best reason for developing grip strength .

 

[mook jong man]

My Sifu had a pull up bar installed on the ceiling of his basement. We use to crank out twenty at a time then do push ups then do bricks then do water jars then start over. At first it was torture but after while it got easiser. But actually he went on easy on us. My Sihing said when he took karate years ago they use to do 1000 push ups and 1000 sit ups a day. I was like man thats crazy.

Twenty pull ups at a time , you must of been built like a Spartan .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I was skinny and about 16 and 17 then. I can barely do three now...lol...but I do them in reps. Like ten reps of three now.

Back in the old days we would crank out 15 to 30 easily. But that took time...

I can do 25 push ups now. Back in those days we use to do like one hundred all the time...its crazy...


I need to practice these basic isometrics more...

Twenty pull ups at a time , you must of been built like a Spartan .

 

[Si-Je]

You could work with resistance bands for muscle endurance to help you achieve an ability to chain punch longer and with more speed. Resistance bands tend to keep you from becoming stiff or tense as much as weight training or calestinics.
I use alot of medicine ball excercises too. Snag some ideas from a boxers website or search for a boxer's medicine ball workout routine. You could get some great ideas from muscle fitness magazines and online.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB4Seksx0zw
There is also a whole set of new core strengthening exersizes designed for women. These core programs are intense for male or female. Sifu Hubbie tells me the women's core curriculum's are harder than the one's suggested for men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUFqkWSve8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u08_7Y-SwAw

I feel that if you have a balanced strength training program focusing on the entire body you'll see results much sooner in your punching power, kicking, and overall structure. I do alot of circuit training.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh25Rw_2-fM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AxBSBhBCSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1svjA4UWQ

When punching you'll utilize your core and spine as well as your arms. So make sure your strengthening your lower back as well as your middle and upper back.
Pull-ups are great! But you can also hang a resistance band from the pull up bar, assume a squat position and work more on repitition with "pullup" motion with the resistance bands.

When doing pushups get some pushup handles to relieve the strain on the wrists and hands.

This guy has some great suggestions.
hip pushups http://scoobysworkshop.com/

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Have your heard about the perfect push up? Its a device you do push ups on?

You could work with resistance bands for muscle endurance to help you achieve an ability to chain punch longer and with more speed. Resistance bands tend to keep you from becoming stiff or tense as much as weight training or calestinics.
I use alot of medicine ball excercises too. Snag some ideas from a boxers website or search for a boxer's medicine ball workout routine. You could get some great ideas from muscle fitness magazines and online.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB4Seksx0zw
There is also a whole set of new core strengthening exersizes designed for women. These core programs are intense for male or female. Sifu Hubbie tells me the women's core curriculum's are harder than the one's suggested for men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUFqkWSve8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u08_7Y-SwAw

I feel that if you have a balanced strength training program focusing on the entire body you'll see results much sooner in your punching power, kicking, and overall structure. I do alot of circuit training.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh25Rw_2-fM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AxBSBhBCSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1svjA4UWQ

When punching you'll utilize your core and spine as well as your arms. So make sure your strengthening your lower back as well as your middle and upper back.
Pull-ups are great! But you can also hang a resistance band from the pull up bar, assume a squat position and work more on repitition with "pullup" motion with the resistance bands.

When doing pushups get some pushup handles to relieve the strain on the wrists and hands.

This guy has some great suggestions.
hip pushups http://scoobysworkshop.com/

 

[Si-Je]

Have your heard about the perfect push up? Its a device you do push ups on?

That thing with the handles that turn as you go down. Me want.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea I heard its pretty inexpensive...