training with smaller women

[fighterman]

curious point. but if i dont drill over and over then how do i learn how to deal with differing applications?

 

[fighterman]

Onthechin, Other people's training methods might look different than yours, and also don't know their background. She looks obviously like a beginner, but she's got the right start. It's important for her to train against stronger people, and that her teacher is larger and stronger, will give her the advantage as he has control over his strength and use it appropriately as she progresses.

Fighterman, thanks for sharing the vids. It's always great to see other's ideas and ways of thinking. I also teach petite women, but the methods we use are different, I suppose because my body size is smaller, and my sifu was short, so I had used different techniques against my larger sihing and other opponents.

I show them what worked for me and why it works against larger opponents, then after they have trained a few months, I bring in some of my larger private-students for them to try the self-defense principles against an unknown person, albeit in a controlled environment. It's intimidating and pressure testing. But I found that works for me, because of my smaller stature, i'm not intimidating on my own and i don't intend to be.

I look forward to seeing other videos you post.

thank you

 

[oftheherd1]

curious point. but if i dont drill over and over then how do i learn how to deal with differing applications?

I eagerly await the reply as I wondered as well. I always thought that was part of MA for learning, and to make responses instinctively reactive.

BTW, thanks for sharing the videos.

 

[wushuguy]

curious point. but if i dont drill over and over then how do i learn how to deal with differing applications?

I think repetition and increased understanding is the key. Many women and men, looking to take a "self-defense" class, just want "the basics", meaning most look for learning a few simple "moves" that they can be confident with... which they will memorize by doing repetitions. If they are comfortable with this, they may be able to apply it or not, however I feel it leaves much to be desired. Too many people think self-defense is achieved by a few moves and doing it well. But it takes them to have experience and gain an understanding to realize that they must and can apply those "basics" in other situations. Hopefully it leads them to realize that there's no "fast and easy course for self-defense" like some are advertising, it takes months, years, of work. Of which, repetition is only one aspect to achieve muscle memory and reflex, it does not drill one into being a fighter.

 

[onthechin]

Exactly..MA isnt something that you can become good at without devoting a huge part of your time to. And I dont think theres anything wrong with saying a certain video is rubbish if thats what it is. My reply would have been different in the first instance had the girl done anything in terms of finishing except for throw the same elbow.

 

[onthechin]

curious point. but if i dont drill over and over then how do i learn how to deal with differing applications?

Well basically you'll never really learn how to fight until you stop thinking of fighting as learning drills. Fighting is practice, footwork, getting hit and learning range..

 

[fighterman]

Well basically you'll never really learn how to fight until you stop thinking of fighting as learning drills. Fighting is practice, footwork, getting hit and learning range..

drilling in actuality is a methiod used to build peoples reflexes up gradually, it starts from basic movements so people can get used to the mos timportant part whcih is motor coordination. secondly you can add pressure, thridly you can add variety and confusion then gradually build it up to sponataneous attacks. hitting people especially people who dont train as a profession will only create more damage and will help no one

 

[onthechin]

One of the main reason boxers do so well is not because they have a great style (They dont use anything but their fists) but because they are willing to hit and get hit. Yes, do your drills but also put them into practice. Create a situation where they need to defend themselves before they can do what theyve been taught. IF the ultimate aim is that this girl can fight and defend herself against real attackers then there is no way around actually practicing a real scenario, forcing her to take some punches, forcing her to put the pressure on her opponent and forcing her to end the fight.

 

[geezer]

IF the ultimate aim is that this girl can fight and defend herself against real attackers then there is no way around actually practicing a real scenario, forcing her to take some punches, forcing her to put the pressure on her opponent and forcing her to end the fight.

"Ultimate" means "final" ...as in end product. It takes a while to get there. Especially for "smaller women" who may not have much experience with physical aggression. An instructor has to lead them to that point, step by step. Drills like this are part of that process. As a teacher by profession (outside of the martial arts) I'm keenly aware of this. BTW, "On the chin" what's your background? (Didn't see much in your profile).

 

[ATACX GYM]

I'll respond to this later but I feel pretty certain that I can really help out here, being a guy on the smaller side at 5'7" and about 160 and having a whole crew of women and kids who are 5 feet or shorter who I train [ they call themselves The 5 Footers] but I will have to get back to you guys another day. But it will be soon, and I will have very exact specifics using the stuff that our friend with the OP already did with his client. Good job btw man.

 

[Jenna]

Create a situation where they need to defend themselves before they can do what theyve been taught.

Maybe I am being dumb and but that does not seem to be a statement that makes sense? How is one meant to defend oneself using techniques one does not yet have?? Thank you.

 

[Jenna]

hi guys thought Id leave you some of these vids of one of my female students half my size. shes enthusiastic and really wants to beat stronger people. appreciate your views

Great videos, thank you so much for posting! It is fantastic to see you working like this with her. Plus she looks as if she is enjoying her training! I am really encouraged. If it is ok to make one point? She does appear to be moving heavily onto her back foot when you are attacking. I would worry that you could simply push her over before she can counter. I appreciate that she is learning and I do not wish to be harsh or critical and but perhaps rooted stance is something to work into her training from the beginning. I am glad you are giving her resistance from the get go, this is all wonderful to see. I wish you every success and hope posting these encourages others to take your lead. Jenna.

 

[fighterman]

maybe i am being dumb and but that does not seem to be a statement that makes sense? How is one meant to defend oneself using techniques one does not yet have?? Thank you.

hi jenna thanks for the advice will do as you say. Take care

 

[geezer]

...She does appear to be moving heavily onto her back foot when you are attacking. I would worry that you could simply push her over before she can counter. I appreciate that she is learning and I do not wish to be harsh or critical and but perhaps rooted stance is something to work into her training from the beginning...

Jenna, I'm responding on a break at work and videos are screened out, so I can't go back watch the clips again to check out the young woman's stances. Nevertheless, I'd like to point out that Fighterman's Wing Chun evolves from the WT lineage. Like me he trained under Leung Ting, and back weighting is fundamental to this system, especially when turning to "dissolve" an attack. It is difficult to master this, but when mastered, it is very effective. Of course this takes a while to get down. Anyway, this might explain what you were observing.

 

[onthechin]

Well I said "What they have been taught" so obviously they already know the technique/s. Perhaps I should've said "Create a situation where they need to defend themselves IN WHICH they can do what they've been taught". Sorry for the confusion..what I'm really getting at is for an instructor to teach a technique and then have the student do it over and over (video after video) against someone who is offering no resistance whatsoever, is really quite useless in terms of benefit to the student. It's not something confined to 1 or 2 MA schools, its endemic. How many people have been taught techniques in class, paired up and the 'aggressor' is told not to make the attack realistic, not to try to defend against the counter...basically to stand there like a dummy? Maybe do it like that once or twice to get a feel for the technique but then the pressure has to be put on if you want to be able to transfer the technique from the classroom to the street.

 

[ATACX GYM]

hi guys thought Id leave you some of these vids of one of my female students half my size. shes enthusiastic and really wants to beat stronger people. appreciate your views

I like your videos. Keep the drills going man. As a smaller man at 5'7" 160lbs or less who also is a lifelong martial artist with multiple 5th dans, I think I can offer a couple of suggestions that might be helpful:

Change the head grab or insert a groin strike prior to the head grab takedown. The reason I would suggest that is because she's smaller and women tend to possess inferior upper body strength which could make a life and death or raped and not raped difference between themselves and a large male like yourselves attacking them. She should devastate targets that are closer to her, lower on her adversary and harder for him to defend. Testicle shots, inside ankle stomps, knee wheels, leg stomps, trips, liver and kidney blasts, sternum throat and eye blows etc etc [careful on the throat and eye shots like bil jee because the higher she reaches on her adversary the more disadvantaged she is and the easier it is for him to note the attack and thus defend it ] should all precede high percentage takedowns more amenable to her size and taking advantage of a woman's hip power like: single and double legs, kouchi kosoto harai and ogoshis, irimis [ not yet irimi nagas, just the irimis in conjunction with the strikes that you taught her to displace her attacker damage him and allow her to escape], and various trips and push offs that we can get from a combo of say wing chun's traps low line kicks and wrestling/judo/tai chi/aikido trips unbalances and displacements [inclusive of foot sweeps and foot stops].

Once you decide what blows you can teach her that can be aimed to say the groin and other more accessible but high percentage high pain targets, and once you decide upon the alternative to the head grab [ or the "takedown B" tech in case the head grab takedown doesn't work; you're the instructor, you know your client, and I am in no way trying to imose upon intercede in or superimpose my opinions and training model upon you ] you simply insert it into the drills that you are already doing. This way you get to keep that all important muscle memory up you've already built up in her, you just are functionalizing it even further. And then you start setting say 3 minute rounds wherein she has to defend your attacks and respond with the drill that you taught her and get say 45 reps done prior to the 3 minutes being up. That's about 1 full rep inclusive of the takedown every 4 seconds. You, sir, are gonna take alotta falls, so I recommend that you both pad up and alternate with say a heavy bag or B.O.B. because not only will that save you a pretty fair number of bumps and bruises, it allows you to step back and correct her technique, foot and hand placement, eliminate telegraps, etc etc.

After a hour or two of this kind of training, you increase the intensity of your resistance to her. You attack from different angles. You attack her from the back. You start her reacting defensively from a rear bear hug attack which she must defeat using the same drills that you taught her just modified for this situation. Then do it again from her back. And then once she's comfy there? Link the new positions to her original position. Perhaps you attack her from the side and in the process of dealing with the scramble you two wind up face to face like you did when you first showed her the tech or perhaps you tackle her to the ground, she fights you off using the same drills you taught her just modified for the ground and then as you two scramble to your feet she repeats the drill standing against you. Maybe you sneak her from the side and press a wooden knife against her. She uses her drill modified for this situation, disarms you,engages you standing up as you two scramble and jockey for position,she does the original drill again and then she escapes. Etc etc. You get the idea you can take it from here.

I realize that what I recommend is for some people alot of work, but it will pay off immensely and quicky. I am not kidding when I say that 3 hours of this training will yield a giant difference in your client's physical fitness and technical ability. I recommend that you have her put in no more than 7-10 rounds at 3 minutes apiece when you train, and have her rep it out on her own when you're not with her directly. I do this all the time with my clients and I get results that are night and day in less than 8 hours of such training every single time. No matter what they want to achieve. You will too. I also tend to start my newbs out with 4 rounds of this tops. The physical energies expended are quite significant at first, and she will definitely feel it the next day. But as her body adjusts [ usually about 4 training sessions, and recommend that she take Glutamine the natural amino acid which will vastly accelerate her recovery rate] to the new stress levels, her techs and her physical fitness will skyrocket to new levels.

Good luck and please tell me how it goes if you decide to employ any of the suggestions above.

 

[onthechin]

She should be able to do it in a SD situation...there's no point attacking her from the side with no intent, from the back with no intent...she needs to be able to use it when attacked WITH intent. I like how you say "increase the intensity of your resistance to her" When you say things like..."she's comfy there"..Heres a novel idea..teach someone/some people how to fight the real way - ie. by doing it. Dont ask for money, just for friendship and comittment, but put the effort in required to teach them how to fight - years.Problem is so many people here are making money teaching multiple people. Hasn't MA traditionally been a 1 person teach 1 person kind of thing?

 

[geezer]

OnTheChin... OK we get it. You're all about RBSD. Is that what you train? Have you taught many women, and if so, how did they respond to your approach?

BTW when it comes to injecting some reality into training, I think you'll find that Fighterman works harder at it than most. Check out some of his sparring videos on youtube.

 

[wtxs]

Hasn't MA traditionally been a 1 person teach 1 person kind of thing?

No, no, and no.

 

[ATACX GYM]

She should be able to do it in a SD situation...there's no point attacking her from the side with no intent, from the back with no intent...she needs to be able to use it when attacked WITH intent. I like how you say "increase the intensity of your resistance to her" When you say things like..."she's comfy there"..Heres a novel idea..teach someone/some people how to fight the real way - ie. by doing it. Dont ask for money, just for friendship and comittment, but put the effort in required to teach them how to fight - years.Problem is so many people here are making money teaching multiple people. Hasn't MA traditionally been a 1 person teach 1 person kind of thing?

All of my training has an escalating level of resistance commisserate with the ability of the student's skill level. But make no mistake: we go all out or very close to 100% once you get confident in your skill and ability. This kind of training actually is several times harder physically than the SD situation itself, as most attackers lack the skill stamina will athleticism technique and mindset of the well trained athletic self-defense oriented martial artist. In the same sense that you can practice defending the guard or breaking mount or various blows throws and takedowns full force? I simply recommend that we link this escalating of resistance and power applied to the various skill sets and drills required to have real skill in a particular situation.

It's hard to pass a pretty decent martial artist's guard. It's harder to perform 45 passes in 3 minutes. It's very very hard to do so when the martial artist is resisting you full tilt boogie...and that's what the methods that I teach and the suggestion that I gave build towards.

It's absolutely every bit as essential to BUILD TOWARD GOING FULL POWER as it is to actuallly PRACTICE FULL POWER. Too many people--especially RBSD folks--don't properly cogitate upon this maxim nor inculcate its practice. When I say "she's comfy there" it's because she's developed the requisite physical mental technical skill to know that she can competently defend such and such attack from such and such angle at such and such intensity. She's grown as a martial artist and person. Now increase the intensity of the attack and requirements so that she's no longer so comfy, and she has to strive reach work sweat bleed grunt and work to achieve the skill to thwart the new level of attack. Repeat ad infinitum ad nauseum. Then do it ad infinitum some more. I recognize, on thechin, that you don't know me or my practices so you don't know that apparently we share quite a bit in common insofar as the importance of real world performance as the ultimate goal is concerned.

I tell my students that if they train a give tech with me for 24 hours they can fight pretty much anyone on the street full tilt boogie with that specific tech. In 8 hours or less they will be able to fight off an attacker that they couldn't fight off when they first met me and walked into my Gym door. That's how result oriented and specific the ladder of performance is for me and my Gym. I guarantee it or you get your money back.