Training Philosophies

[MJS]

This is a 2 part thread.

Part 1: The saying "You fight the way you train." What does that mean to you? Do you feel that the saying is true?

Part 2a: Do you feel that crosstraining is necessary?

Part 2b: Do you feel that crosstraining would hinder your base art?


Fighting the way you train...yes, IMO, I think that there is some truth to that. I mean, if we train something repeatedly, over and over and over, its going to be so engrained into us, that we will probably resort to whatever it is that we have trained. I think back to some of the Fight Quest episodes, where Jimmy and Doug both stated that their natural instinct was the take their opponents to the ground. They also stated that in certain situations, such as with weapons and multiples, that is the last place you want to be.

Many times you hear TMA advocates say that they'd use 'dirty' fighting techniques, such as eye gouges, biting, throwing things in the eyes, etc. Of course, thats usually countered with people saying, "Well, if the TMA guy can do that, so can (insert other art here). Now, while that may be true, is it going to be on their mind, if its something that is normally not trained?

Now, while I don't think that the eye gouge should be the determining factor...I say this because we often hear people say things like, "Oh you need to use those d34dly eye gouges to win?" While I don't consider them, "The D34dly" as they're called, its a tool that could help. Will you think of doing that if you don't train it? Maybe, maybe not. Of course, the other counter thats thrown into the mix is, how do you train those things? Well, the same way we'd train anything...practice, the use of protective gear, etc.


Do I feel crosstraining is necessary? IMO, yes. While arts address many things, such as weapons, grappling, etc. I feel that if the person wants to expand in an area, then yes, it will be necessary. Now, if you're happy with what you're getting, thats fine. We could say that our art is complete....but is it really? Sure, some may have a deeper understanding, some may have different experiences with the art, and thats fine. I've heard people say theres grappling, or groundfighting in Kenpo. If there is, thats fine. From what I have seen, there is, but IMO, its limited. Do I want to take a standup tech. and attempt to modify it for the ground, or use a ground tech. from a grappling based art? Could I cross reference with other arts? In other words, not cross train per se, but work with a grappler, to test my techs., making adjustments as necessary? Sure, why not.

Does cross training hinder your base art? IMO, no. The arts that I train in, blend very well together, and that, IMHO, is what makes the difference. If we should be able to transition from one tech. to the other when doing SD, why can't we transition from standing to say, the ground?


The above is just my opinion. Of course, part of it was sparked from a debate on another thread. I've never had the intention to steer someone away from their base art, forcing them to devote another X number of years to learning something new. My intentions are simply to attempt to get people, some who seem soooo set in their ways, to open their eyes a bit, to take off the blinders, and realise that there is so much out there, and seeing how someone else does something, is not a bad thing after all. :ultracool

 

[Deaf Smith]

Part 1: The saying "You fight the way you train." What does that mean to you? Do you feel that the saying is true?

MJS, it is VERY true. Whatever way you train, you will basicly fight that way. Your training, and fighting abilty, will depend on what techniques you have been trained in and the intensity of the training.

If you have trained little, you will do little (or less!) If you have trained moderatly, you MIGHT do the basics. If your training is intensly, you WILL do the basics well!

It is very difficult, under the intense pressure of a real fight, to come up with anything but what you have been trained in. The techniques you have learned, if learned well, will show themselves. If learned poorly, well that will show itself do.

And BTW, you can have a inferior technique, but if delievered so fast your opponent cannot intelegently counter it, then the technique becomes a good one!

Part 2a: Do you feel that crosstraining is necessary?

Depends on the cross training! I feel a well rounded martial artist should have a decent SIMPLE set of kicks, punches, blocks, knees, elbows, footwork, locks, holds, throws, and yes, even some ground work. They do not have to have a huge number of each, but just a good simple set of techniques that are universal (that is can be used against many types of oppoents, tall, short, stocky, etc... AND THEY ARE VERY GOOD WITH THEM!

Part 2b: Do you feel that crosstraining would hinder your base art?

No! The base art is the base art and it is NOT the martial artist. If cross training hinders the base art then the base art is hindering the martial artist.

Deaf

 

[mook jong man]

My core art is Wing Chun but I have trained in Kali Ilustrisimo ,shootfighting and a bit of Krav Maga as well .

I believe that crosstraining is absolutely crucial and you will fight the way you train . I learned all the control positions on the ground and the submissions and now I have dropped most of the submissions and just look for opportunities to strike so I have adapted the groundfighting back into my core art .

I used to love doing rear naked chokes , but there was one time I was training grappling with a friend and sometimes we also grappled with sticks or knives , well he had the knife and somehow I got around the back of him and saw the neck was unprotected I went straight for a rear naked choke and totally forgot about the knife and he just punctured my thigh about 10 times with the training knife .

Out in the real world that would have been a very costly mistake , so that is one instance where you have to mentally change gears and use different techniques if the attacker is armed . Maybe there are people that can change modes like that but personally I don't think I can .

 

[Ronin74]

Wow, I was actually impressed with the previous posts.

Deaf Smith, I heavily agree with your line "If cross training hinders the base art then the base art is hindering the martial artist."

I train in Filipino Martial Arts, and have found that it's core concepts serve to make it a good base art for myself.

As for cross-training, I think it's important in helping the artist apply their training to circumstances that might not be a standard part of their "in-house" training repetoir. I have a good friend who is a former instructor in Shorin-Ryu, and a police officer. We used to get together and have an exchange of techniques and training methods which both helped broaden the applications of our respective techniques, as well as made us more aware of where we could stand to improve more.

Reiterating my earlier statement, I agree with Deaf Smith that the base art can hinder the artist. As a personal experience, I had done Chinese Kempo before, and in my first opportunity to cross-train with others from a different art, I found that it was very difficult to adapt and adjust. Now I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with Chinese, but in how I had learned it, the core concepts were never really the focus as much as the individual techniques and drills. However, in doing Filipino Martial Arts, the concepts were a major focus, thus making it easier to cross-train.

 

[championmarius]

Part 1: The saying "You fight the way you train." What does that mean to you? Do you feel that the saying is true?

Part 2a: Do you feel that crosstraining is necessary?

Part 2b: Do you feel that crosstraining would hinder your base art?

1: Absolutely! To me it means that you will revert to the things you have trained, and the things you have trained the most. I train/teach in a kind of backwards approach. I focus more on the offensive battery, reasoning that under pressure, these movements will the be what the body defaults to, not backpedaling and blocking, but the attack.

2&3: For me to demonize crosstraining would be hypocrisy of the highest order. So much of what I do is drawn from other things that I have been introduced to outside of my root art. I can scarcely tell where the root art(s) ends and the crosstrained skills begin. At the very least, it will give you a chance to "roll" with someone from a different art, see how you stack up against something other than your art.

 

[Deaf Smith]

the concepts were a major focus, thus making it easier to cross-train.

Yes it's the concepts. Once you see how the general ideas work, one can find many techniques from other arts that fit into the scheme.

This first hit me a long long time ago when we were doing joint locks. Once I saw the the concept I realized most joints can be locked and locked in many ways so all you had to do was adapt. Lots of doors opened that day cause it applied to far more than just joint locks. I then started looking for general concepts first, techniques second.

BTW guys, I'm a TKDist as my base, but JKD is really built on concepts and it steals the techniques from other arts. And that isn't a bad way of doing things!

Deaf

 

[Ronin74]

LOL... I don't know if I'd say "steal"... perhaps "borrows", j/k.

In that same vein, I think it's safe to agree that no matter how traditional or modern a particular style is, they all come from and lead to a similar path.

From past experiences, I'd venture to guess that cross-training was frowned upon by some in the past, who felt it was sort of an insult to one's instructor- sort of like saying that their particular style wasn't good enough, and that the training was missing something. I always felt that the reality of it came down to whether the instructor was making the curriculum also applicable to realistic situations.

Now I can understand an instructor's frustration if cross-training got the student confused, but I always felt that if a student could make the conscious seperation during classes in order to progress, then so be it. When I taught, I never told my students to pick one art, but made sure they drilled the technique they learned properly. When it was time for application of the technique, I encouraged them to use other techniques where they were applicable.

 

[GBlues]

1. you will do what you train. You can't train the way you want to fight. In reality, we would all like to end the fight quickly. I.E. eye gouges, etc. To me you don't train techniques for the techniques. In a fight you don't have time to think, everything has to be automatic, so if your techniques and skills are automatic, you can think about other things during the fight. Like what's going to be the best way to end this fight and end it quickly, while your body is doing what it has been trained to do to keep you safe. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I view the techniques.

2. Cross-training is necassary to the point that maybe you don't need to spend time going through the whole system, but enough to get a core set of principles and techs. that work for you. Although if you want to spend the time to go through a system then it will add that much more to your base I would think.

2a. nah it shouldn't unless you go so far off the reservation you know. It's like anything else. If you go so far away from your home training it may, because you would be learning something completely different. If you choose to cross-train it should be in things that compliment what your already doing. That's my opinion. I don't how right on it is, but hopefully it's inline or along the same lines as what you guys are thinking too.

 

[MJS]

Great replies! Looking at the posts here, it seems that the majority are in favor of cross training. Some will say that it takes away from your base art, but I'm just not seeing how it'll cause as much 'damage' as people make it seem.

Good points with the line of thinking of just getting the core principles. I don't think its necessary to learn 20 different variations of the mount escape from BJJ. I don't think its necessary to learn 30 different ways to do an armlock from (insert position). Instead, pick a few that you like, ones that you can really make work, drill the hell out of them, and there ya go! I mean, its really no different than picking a handful of punch techs. from your base system, and make them your bread and butter moves. In Kenpo there're sooooo many punch techs. to pick from, so while I train all of them, as thats my base art, I have my favorites.

 

[qwksilver61]

Yes,you should.Start slow then turn up the heat,I believe skill & speed are a factor.Yes,cross training could be beneficial,especially when encountering a ground fighter.Two cents...