Training advice needed, please

[lostinseattle]

So for the past few years I've had a problem. I took some karate and Chinese martial arts, but found that most people do little in terms of applications of traditional karate and CMA.

Meaning, traditional karate has techniques like shuto strikes (knife edge hand), ridge-hand, finger tip strikes, and so does CMA.

However, nobody seems to work on the applications for these. Sparring and drills are typically just standard punching and kicking techniques and some grappling and self defenses. Tons of time is spent on form work without techniques associated to them.

Most schools, karate or TKD, will do all these forms, yet when they spar they just do punching and kicking.

Additionally, every new school requires you start over and learn their forms. Yet the karate applications are pretty much the same no matter what your style of karate because they all came from the same place. But instructors always insist you learn their forms even though it's pretty much useless to train another entire system's forms if you have one system down.

Therefore, the dilemma is ... how to train these techniques? Nobody seems to train these, and if they say they do, they require you to join their school and learn their forms for years.

I thought I could find partners for practice but partners tend to just talk a lot and not train very much. It tends to turn into a social thing rather than a training thing, and a lot of partners want you to learn their techniques, rather than just trade off doing techniques or sparring.

So this is the dilemma ... how do you train traditional techniques when it seems like every school just wants to do their own thing and make money, and every student seems to want to do their own thing, rather than trade off?

 

[g-bells]

find a "traditional Karate" teacher

 

[exile]

So this is the dilemma ... how do you train traditional techniques when it seems like every school just wants to do their own thing and make money, and every student seems to want to do their own thing, rather than trade off?

Hey lost, you're asking exactly the right question. I agree completely with your complaint: instruction tends to focus on the performance of kata/hyungs/etc. rather than on training the application of the combat techs encoded (or concealed, or implicit, or however you think of it) in the forms.

If you were in the UK, your problem would be solved: you could seek out Iain Abernethy's dojo, or go to a few of his seminars, or find dojos run by instructors he's trained, or by his associates in that terrific community of karateka trying to rediscover the bunkai and oyo of traditional karate/TKD forms. But in the US, it's much less common, for some reason.

One thing I'd suggest: if you haven't already, take a look at Abernethy's book Bunkai-Jutsu: the practical application of karate kata and Bill Burgar's book Five Years, One Kata: putting kata back at the heart of Karate, both of which not only have great stuff on systematic methods for extracting the combat apps from kata, but also stuff on how to train these apps realistically. In the absence of formal training along these lines in your dojo, you may have to get together with a few like-minded souls, following the kinds of guidelines Abernethy outlines in his last chapter, which is devoted to just this topic. But it might get you started.

I can't believe there aren't at least some dojos in the Seattle area that don't emphasize this aspect of training.... how widely have you looked around?

 

[lostinseattle]

One thing I'd suggest: if you haven't already, take a look at Abernethy's book Bunkai-Jutsu: the practical application of karate kata and Bill Burgar's book Five Years, One Kata: putting kata back at the heart of Karate, both of which not only have great stuff on systematic methods for extracting the combat apps from kata, but also stuff on how to train these apps realistically. In the absence of formal training along these lines in your dojo, you may have to get together with a few like-minded souls, following the kinds of guidelines Abernethy outlines in his last chapter, which is devoted to just this topic. But it might get you started.

I can't believe there aren't at least some dojos in the Seattle area that don't emphasize this aspect of training.... how widely have you looked around?

Thanks for the references -- I'll look those up. There might be some in Seattle. There's at least 3 that may that I found, goju ryu, chinto ryu and shorin ryu, but they of course require the person to do their versions of the karate forms first.

I emailed the people who ran the dojos and they all three took very much offense when I said that somebody only needed 1 set of katas. Basically they said I had a bad attitude and forbid me from studying at their places. I wasn't necessarily saying that I didn't want to study their katas, just making a general statement, but evidently they want slaves, not thinkers in their schools.

Somehow it seems from everything I've come across that the U.K. and Europe are much more progressive in terms of martial arts and applications orientation rather than flash and display. I guess I'm just on the wrong continent.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So for the past few years I've had a problem. I took some karate and Chinese martial arts, but found that most people do little in terms of applications of traditional karate and CMA.

Meaning, traditional karate has techniques like shuto strikes (knife edge hand), ridge-hand, finger tip strikes, and so does CMA.

However, nobody seems to work on the applications for these. Sparring and drills are typically just standard punching and kicking techniques and some grappling and self defenses. Tons of time is spent on form work without techniques associated to them.

Most schools, karate or TKD, will do all these forms, yet when they spar they just do punching and kicking.

Additionally, every new school requires you start over and learn their forms. Yet the karate applications are pretty much the same no matter what your style of karate because they all came from the same place. But instructors always insist you learn their forms even though it's pretty much useless to train another entire system's forms if you have one system down.

Therefore, the dilemma is ... how to train these techniques? Nobody seems to train these, and if they say they do, they require you to join their school and learn their forms for years.

I thought I could find partners for practice but partners tend to just talk a lot and not train very much. It tends to turn into a social thing rather than a training thing, and a lot of partners want you to learn their techniques, rather than just trade off doing techniques or sparring.

So this is the dilemma ... how do you train traditional techniques when it seems like every school just wants to do their own thing and make money, and every student seems to want to do their own thing, rather than trade off?

What are you asking for? You will find most schools will tell you to delve in, or be on your way. I recomend you find a school you like and stick with it.
Sean

 

[RED]

Welcome to Martial talk.

Here I go with the non profit stuff again....

I would look for a club or a church in the area that have classes. They aren't confined to legalities like a commercial school is. Things like breaking bricks. Some schools wont risk the liability but a non-profit place wont be as confined. They don't have to rush through things either, therefore the instructors can give you more details as to application of moves. It's about details. So go and look for the non profit people. You might be surprized.

My current instructor knew that my former instructors where Korean. Why? Not sure but I guess that I have a good grasp of fundamentals. I don't mean to sound like I'm stereotyping but maybe you can look for an ethnically appropriate instructor to your art.

My 2¥

 

[exile]

Thanks for the references -- I'll look those up. There might be some in Seattle. There's at least 3 that may that I found, goju ryu, chinto ryu and shorin ryu, but they of course require the person to do their versions of the karate forms first.

Well, if you can find a place that is serious about ferreting out and training kata-based combat applications under maximally realistic conditions (i.e., within the limits of what is possible without people routinely winding up in hospital!), it might be worth biting the bullet, learning their kata and then being able to take advantage of their training emphasis. That being said, however...

I emailed the people who ran the dojos and they all three took very much offense when I said that somebody only needed 1 set of katas. Basically they said I had a bad attitude and forbid me from studying at their places. I wasn't necessarily saying that I didn't want to study their katas, just making a general statement, but evidently they want slaves, not thinkers in their schools.

... this is very very strange. Because—as you probably know already—in the traditional karate training as practiced in Okinawa before karate was taken to Japan and taught in large-class kihon-style formats at the behest of the Japanese education and defense ministries, one or two kata constituted the whole basis for a karateka's fighting system. Funakoshi and Motobu, for example, trained almost nothing but Naihanchi. Abernethy has a complete short e-monograph on the combat system contained in the Pinan/Heian series, showing that it offers a complete set of combat techs covering every realistic fighting range. So the claim that someone actually needs more than a few kata or hyungs has a lot to prove. Burgar, in his book, makes clear how this business of having to learn ten or twelve kata or so before first Dan was basically an artefact of the change in training methods that started with Itosu in Okinawa, but really got off the ground when Funakoshi took karate to Japan and sold it to the authorities there. What used to be one-on-one, very hard serious training with advancement very slow and typically unmarked by a belt or anything like that, became an affair of large classes of amateurs pursuing MAs as part of their `character development' mandate in university, with the intent of building esprit de corps and other virtues the military wished to instill. Progressive grading and ranking was a by-product, and with that came the need to set criteria for advancement from one rank to the next—which was how learning great numbers of kata, and later hyung in KMA, became the norm: mastering (performance of a) kata became the criterion of advancement. But in terms of mastering MA technique, the older, indigenous Okinawan system seems to have worked very well indeed.

And the idea isn't dead—Burgar actually did spend fife years doing bunkai and oyo training on one single kata, Gojushiho. His comments about kata-based training are based on the authentic experience of learning a complete fighting system from a single kata, the way a much earlier generation of karateka, who aimed primarily as street-combat effectiveness, trained it.

The negative response you got just shows how inside-out things have gotten. This business of cramming as many kata/hyung into your head as you can and thinking you're learning karate or TKD reminds me of one of Woody Allen's movies, where he's telling friends about this great speed-reading course he's just completed and how, after learning how to do it, he went out and read the whole of Proust's Remembrance of Things Past in a single weekend. Asked for a sketch of what he got from reading the five volumes in 48 hours, he hesitates a second and then says, kind of tentatively `Well... it was about some Frenchmen'.

Somehow it seems from everything I've come across that the U.K. and Europe are much more progressive in terms of martial arts and applications orientation rather than flash and display. I guess I'm just on the wrong continent.

Don't give up. If there's anywhere in the US that you're going to find likewise progressive-minded people, it's where you are. It just may take some digging around. Keep us posted on what you turn up!

 

[lostinseattle]

Well, if you can find a place that is serious about ferreting out and training kata-based combat applications under maximally realistic conditions (i.e., within the limits of what is possible without people routinely winding up in hospital!), it might be worth biting the bullet, learning their kata and then being able to take advantage of their training emphasis. That being said, however...

I thought it might, especially since the Goju Ryu place, one of the instructors wrote a book about this same subject, but like one of the above posters said, "What are you asking? Just dive in and don't ask questions or go away." That's pretty much the attitude everywhere.

... this is very very strange. Because—as you probably know already—in the traditional karate training as practiced in Okinawa before karate was taken to Japan and taught in large-class kihon-style formats at the behest of the Japanese education and defense ministries, one or two kata constituted the whole basis for a karateka's fighting system. Funakoshi and Motobu, for example, trained almost nothing but Naihanchi.

...

The negative response you got just shows how inside-out things have gotten. This business of cramming as many kata/hyung into your head as you can and thinking you're learning karate or TKD reminds me of one of Woody Allen's movies, where he's telling friends about this great speed-reading course he's just completed and how, after learning how to do it, he went out and read the whole of Proust's Remembrance of Things Past in a single weekend. Asked for a sketch of what he got from reading the five volumes in 48 hours, he hesitates a second and then says, kind of tentatively `Well... it was about some Frenchmen'.

Haha ... I think basically it boils down to one thing, which is making money. The schools are for profit institutions so it behooves them to keep students around doing katas for years. If they had an applications class for general karate waza/bunkai without kata I guess they figure they'll lose a ton of business.

But even that doesn't make sense, since like you say, you could practice one karate kata's applications for five years. Perhaps as Red suggested, it is a liability issue.

Don't give up. If there's anywhere in the US that you're going to find likewise progressive-minded people, it's where you are. It just may take some digging around. Keep us posted on what you turn up!

As Red suggested, I'll look for the non-profits. I didn't know such a thing existed. I've tried getting together with other people but like I said, it usually devolves into a social hour. (Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but a complete waste of time if one is wanting to get applications down).

Martial arts people here seem to be more and more interested in money and profits, at the expense of fighting applications, with the exception of the mixed martial arts fighting schools, which of course mostly don't practice traditional waza/bunkai. It's very strange. It's like commercialism has totally taken over the U.S. at the expense of everything else. Perhaps it's because of the increasing cost of living.

 

[lostinseattle]

Welcome to Martial talk.

Here I go with the non profit stuff again....

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the info. I had no idea there were non profit schools around. Here in Seattle we're surrounded by Oom Young Doe, Temple Kung Fu offshoots, USSDs, and TKD schools, so it is very difficult finding any traditional schools.

I had no idea there were such things, so I guess I'll have to look them up.

 

[exile]

Martial arts people here seem to be more and more interested in money and profits, at the expense of fighting applications, with the exception of the mixed martial arts fighting schools, which of course mostly don't practice traditional waza/bunkai. It's very strange. It's like commercialism has totally taken over the U.S. at the expense of everything else. Perhaps it's because of the increasing cost of living.

I actually have a slightly different take on it—I suspect that it's because people who do MAs in this country don't actually want to learn hard-core self defense and the structured application of extreme violence, which is what traditional MAs are. Middle class North Americans at some level understand that for the most part, they enjoy very high levels of social protection from their LE systems at many levels (municipal, state, federal) and a society which in general looks after them very well, compared with the majority of people in 19th c. Okinawa, who had to protect themselves or wake up dead after getting attacked while walking home one evening.

Commercialism does come into it—but in a specific way, I think: the role of children's instruction in the MA business, which can make or break a school's bottom line, and increasingly does. So kids' MA is necessary to business success; but probably most people don't want their kids to learn really violent applicatiions, or even be shown such apps as a kind of preview of what they'll learn when they get a bit older. I teach a TKD class for kids in the 9-11 year old range, and I've tried to show them how certain basic moves in the elementary kicho patterns conceal an array of very effective brutal strikes, locks and traps, and partial throws—not because I want them to learn these, but so they understand that in doing the forms, what they're really doing in internalizing certain movements whose use as combat moves will indeed be explained to them sometime when they're more advanced. I tell them repeatedly that TKD hyungs are not dances, and they'll learn more about the tactics they embody a few belts up the line. But I'm not sure that their parents would like them to learn just what these forms really contain in the way of effectively violent fighting moves....

So that limits what you can do in a for-profit school, to some extent, I suspect. The more you depend on kids, the less realistic applications of kata techs you're going to be able to teach....

 

[lostinseattle]

I actually have a slightly different take on it—I suspect that it's because people who do MAs in this country don't actually want to learn hard-core self defense and the structured application of extreme violence, which is what traditional MAs are.

That's a good point, and there are plenty of places around Seattle that are that way, especially given the politics around here which are pretty granola. There's an older Kempo instructor around here that had a school for like 30 years who said the same thing. He went out of business while the USSD's flourished, and he said it was because nobody wants to learn how to really fight anymore.

It's like a lot of people think if you learn to really fight with the martial art it's somehow evil or criminal. I went to visit the local Krav Maga place and couldn't believe it because I took Krav Maga for a little while in NY and it was one of the most intense places I'd ever trained. But here it's a bunch of suburbanites learning moves and they don't even kick or punch hard. They're just totally wasting their time.

I teach a TKD class for kids in the 9-11 year old range, and I've tried to show them how certain basic moves in the elementary kicho patterns conceal an array of very effective brutal strikes, locks and traps, and partial throws—not because I want them to learn these, but so they understand that in doing the forms, what they're really doing in internalizing certain movements whose use as combat moves will indeed be explained to them sometime when they're more advanced. I tell them repeatedly that TKD hyungs are not dances, and they'll learn more about the tactics they embody a few belts up the line. But I'm not sure that their parents would like them to learn just what these forms really contain in the way of effectively violent fighting moves....

Yes, as a society it's like we promote violence in movies and the media, yet violence remains in the domain of criminals or something, so responsible citizens cannot partake of it or something. In WA they have legalized gun carry, yet you can't carry a knife except a folder under 3 inches. But of course criminals can use whatever they want. It's a very strange system.

So that limits what you can do in a for-profit school, to some extent, I suspect. The more you depend on kids, the less realistic applications of kata techs you're going to be able to teach....

It's good that you tell kids about that stuff because just doing forms gets boring after a while. Here the TKD schools are filled with huge fat kids who are taking TKD to lose weight. I couldn't believe it when I visited how many overweight kids there are -- and we're not talking a few pounds or a few tens of pounds, but like 50-100.

 

[exile]

That's a good point, and there are plenty of places around Seattle that are that way, especially given the politics around here which are pretty granola. There's an older Kempo instructor around here that had a school for like 30 years who said the same thing. He went out of business while the USSD's flourished, and he said it was because nobody wants to learn how to really fight anymore.

Boy, that last sentence really sums it up. People want to do what they think they have to do to thrive, or just survive. In middle-class America, self-defense doesn't come under that heading. In the UK, though, it seems much more urgent, apparently, judging by the success of combat oriented MA training.

It's like a lot of people think if you learn to really fight with the martial art it's somehow evil or criminal. I went to visit the local Krav Maga place and couldn't believe it because I took Krav Maga for a little while in NY and it was one of the most intense places I'd ever trained. But here it's a bunch of suburbanites learning moves and they don't even kick or punch hard. They're just totally wasting their time.

`Soft' krav maga... krav maga-for-commodities-brokers... :uhohh: [shakes head in bafflement]... aren't there some oxymorons that just aren't allowed???

Yes, as a society it's like we promote violence in movies and the media, yet violence remains in the domain of criminals or something, so responsible citizens cannot partake of it or something. In WA they have legalized gun carry, yet you can't carry a knife except a folder under 3 inches. But of course criminals can use whatever they want. It's a very strange system.

Yup....

It's good that you tell kids about that stuff because just doing forms gets boring after a while. Here the TKD schools are filled with huge fat kids who are taking TKD to lose weight. I couldn't believe it when I visited how many overweight kids there are -- and we're not talking a few pounds or a few tens of pounds, but like 50-100.

Thing is, I don't want them to think that they're just going through some motions... I want them to know there's good stuff up ahead if they just stick to it.... but TKD for weight loss?? That seems way wrong! Funny: my picture of Seattle people, and PNW people generally, is that they're leaner than the rest of the country...

 

[flashlock]

I taught TKD for about a year as an assistant instructor, and I had to teach people those forms. I barely remember them now--I never liked them, always thought they were pretty useless--I guess the idea is to show you can demonstrate individual techniques, and flow from one to the other, concentrating, and being snappy/ clean. That's fine if you want to show the beauty of an art, not so fine, in my humble opinion, if you're just interested in self defense.

Bruce Lee (no less) said that he thought instructors spent so much time on forms just to fill up class time.

The techniques you mentioned are pretty good, mainly because they're so simple. If that's the main thing you are interested in, just buy a practice dummy or punching bag, and practice those techniques. Just remember, you can have a shuto, or eagle claw, or 3-fingered ninja death fist, but in the end, it's just a strike coming down at an angle, and can be deflected, destroyed, blocked, or slipped like any ordinary punch.

If you want stripped down, no nonesense instruction, perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree with "traditional" karate. Nothing wrong with those traditional arts UNLESS you want to concentrate on self defense, not art, not cultural preservation. I'd reccomend more military related/ street defense systems (Hock Hockheim, Paul Vunak, etc.) because these systems were designed to teach people quickly and effectively, and they're so expensive there is no hypocrisy--they're a business out to make money!

Good luck!

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't usually plug a system, but you might try a kenpo school, if one is in your area. There are many branches of the kenpo tree. Some have a better reputation than others, I can't speak for any of them, except for my own personal experience.

I study Tracy kenpo. Al, Will, and Jim Tracy were among the early students of Ed Parker, in the 1950s and 1960s. As Mr. Parker changed his art in the 1960s forward, the Tracys disagreed with these decisions. So they kept the art the way they originally learned it, as well as adding some material that they learned from some Chinese sources. Now let me be clear: I am not making any claim to Tracys being better than Parker's later systems. I haven't studied them, so I just cannot and will not comment one way or the other about them.

But the way the art is done in Tracys is very application-oriented. The curriculum is focused on self defense techniques designed for real application in real situations. The kata are made up of these same self defense techniques, so what you learn to apply directly is later contained in the forms. The forms are really a way to catalog the SD techs for practice when you don't have a training partner. And they are not the same kata contained in the Japanese and Okinawan systems. They are unique to kenpo.

The Tracys curriculum contains a vast number of these techs. In some ways, I think it is overdone, in all honesty. Just too many of them. But I have a new instructor who is very very knowledgeable and skilled, and I am enjoying working with him to relearn the material that I first learned about 20 years ago. I decided that before I make any final judgements about the system, I should first give it a second chance and work with someone of very high caliber, and so that is what I am doing. And my eyes are really being opened in a very good way. So while I personally feel the system isn't perfect (what system is?) I also feel that it has a lot of good stuff to offer, and might be a good choice. Just wanted to make the suggestion.

 

[lostinseattle]

I want them to know there's good stuff up ahead if they just stick to it.... but TKD for weight loss?? That seems way wrong! Funny: my picture of Seattle people, and PNW people generally, is that they're leaner than the rest of the country...

People in WA are getting a lot heavier. They estimate that 58% of adults in WA are overweight or obese. (I'm not really someone who should talk, because I'm borderline overweight myself).

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...slug=obesekids23m&date=20070223&query=obesity

But, these young people were much heavier than usual, which is why I assume they're there for weight loss. I went to three different schools, and there were kids in the kids class, and then teens and adults in the adults class.

The reason I'm assuming the kids and teens were there primarily for weight loss because they were as a group heavier than the general population, especially the teens. In one adults class I visited it was very pronounced. There were no teen boys, and there were 6 teen girls, and 5 of them were very heavy and 1 was normal weight.

It could be I'm wrong in this assumption, because it is based on limited evidence. It's possible that kids around here are just getting a lot heavier.

 

[lostinseattle]

I don't usually plug a system, but you might try a kenpo school, if one is in your area. There are many branches of the kenpo tree. Some have a better reputation than others, I can't speak for any of them, except for my own personal experience.

Yes, the local Tracy's instructor is very good. I talked to him -- he's the one who went out of business while the USSD's flourish. Unfortunately he only offers private lessons and it's a little pricey right now.

 

[kidswarrior]

Hey lost, you're asking exactly the right question. I agree completely with your complaint: instruction tends to focus on the performance of kata/hyungs/etc. rather than on training the application of the combat techs encoded (or concealed, or implicit, or however you think of it) in the forms.

Kung Fu San Soo is the only art I have personally experienced which addresses this. Does so by conducting attack/response at walk-through speed, hence, low 'body count' Problem is, KFSS first generation U.S. masters are fading out, and next generation just not opening as many schools.

One thing I'd suggest: if you haven't already, take a look at Abernethy's book Bunkai-Jutsu: the practical application of karate kata and Bill Burgar's book Five Years, One Kata: putting kata back at the heart of Karate, both of which not only have great stuff on systematic methods for extracting the combat apps from kata, but also stuff on how to train these apps realistically.

A hot tip (especially for us bibliophiles). And I wasn't even looking, just kind of reading along with the thread. Thanks, exile.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yes, the local Tracy's instructor is very good. I talked to him -- he's the one who went out of business while the USSD's flourish. Unfortunately he only offers private lessons and it's a little pricey right now.

Been there with the 'pricey' part, lost. And there've been months and seasons when I was forced to bide my time. But I still like Flying Crane's suggestion--there are all sorts of for-real kenpo/kempo instructors and schools out there. Remember you haven't lost until you give up. Best wishes, and do keep us posted.

 

[kidswarrior]

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the info. I had no idea there were non profit schools around. Here in Seattle we're surrounded by Oom Young Doe, Temple Kung Fu offshoots, USSDs, and TKD schools, so it is very difficult finding any traditional schools.

I had no idea there were such things, so I guess I'll have to look them up.

Yes, by the way, Welcome!

And I run one of those not-for-profit (pretty much, strongly-for-loss ) schools in spare time. They're around. Don't let the surroundings put you off. Best of luck.

 

[lostinseattle]

Yes, by the way, Welcome!

And I run one of those not-for-profit (pretty much, strongly-for-loss ) schools in spare time. They're around. Don't let the surroundings put you off. Best of luck.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I've heard very good things about Kung Fu San Soo. Unfortunately the closest teacher is down in Olympia which is a bit of a drive.

Maybe Seattle just isn't a very good place for martial arts. There are a ton of schools but nothing that really jumps out as very combat oriented. I've heard a great many good things about a great many teachers here, but when I actually go to see them it just doesn't live up to expectations.

The problem with kenpo around here is that there are a couple of things: USSD and Temple Kung Fu. I studied at Temple Kung Fu for about a month until it became obvious I wasn't going to get much out of it. It splintered and the schools have broken away from the parent, but they're scattered all over now. In addition there's a lot of USSDs that are run by 1st level or 2nd level black belts and I have gone there but they just do very basic stuff and not with much emphasis on force or realism.

Overall, I've visited schools for wing chun, JKD, kenpo, krav maga, TKD, many types of karate, MMA, bagua, tai chi, ninjitsu, silat, boxing, kickboxing, USSD, Temple kung fu, FMA, aikido, hung gar and probably a few I've forgotten around here and nothing really is that great to spend time on.

Perhaps the problem is just the location.