"Traditional" blocking and parrying

[JT_the_Ninja]

All of these concepts are part of this topic, but also, I think, the context in which "blocks" were incorporated into the forms, is important. The creators of the hyung were trying to show us something with the techniques we call blocks, but this information was intentionally obfuscated as it was passed from person to person. This has essentially led to methods of practice and terminology that is not helpful to really understanding what hyung have to teach. IMHO, straightening out this syncratic mess completely changes the focus of the art.

I look at JT's requirements and, as a teacher, now that I know certain things, I could not practice the art that way anymore. Nor can I teach it that way anymore. It's as if one has discovered, after writing the alphabet for years and years and years, the symbols have greater meaning when strung together in words and sentances.

What is it that you find so unutterably backward and repulsive, if I might ask, since you've just given me and my school a direct insult?

 

[kyosa]

Just wanted to make a comment here. Calling a technique a low block and having it have multiple applications isn't dishonest. If the creators of a style, system or form(hyung or kata) want to call a technique a low block then that is good enough for me and I dont see anything dishonest about it. They could have called it "freds move" or "mist in the morning" or lets just call it "low block."

 

[Makalakumu]

What is it that you find so unutterably backward and repulsive, if I might ask, since you've just given me and my school a direct insult?

JT - I apologize if this was taken as an insult. I was thinking about this a lot today and I didn't have time to reply and clarify. We just have too different approaches and I think we have different objectives. As a teacher I set my objectives and I can see that your teacher has different objectives then I do. That is all I meant to say. For any other misunderstanding, I apologize.

 

[Makalakumu]

Just wanted to make a comment here. Calling a technique a low block and having it have multiple applications isn't dishonest. If the creators of a style, system or form(hyung or kata) want to call a technique a low block then that is good enough for me and I dont see anything dishonest about it. They could have called it "freds move" or "mist in the morning" or lets just call it "low block."

If we start to examine historical sources on the etymology of this usage, we find that it traces back to Itosu Sensei. In his own writings, he is stating that this terminology is intentionally misleading. The reason behind it was twofold.

a. School children were learning the art as part of a physical education program.

b. He knew that Karate would eventually make it to Japan and the Japanese were NOT to be shown the real meaning of certain moves.

I accept the rationale that we could just as well call the move anything we wanted. What I think generates quite a bit of cognitive dissonance is the persistence in calling a technique a name that was given to it in order to intentionally mislead AFTER one knows it was named that way in order to intentionally mislead.

See what I'm saying? In a way, it is dishonest. Not in the sense that people would intentionally tell lies, but in the sense that we know we could do better, but don't for whatever reason.

In TSD, the answer is simple. It's tradition. We give techniques the names our teachers gave them and we use that terminology because we respect them. Ideally, there is nothing wrong with this unless it perpetuates a negative meme that hinders a person's ultimate understanding of the art.

And I do believe that the terminology does do that. Even if WE know better, students hear it and build a mental picture that is very hard to overcome.

 

[Makalakumu]

(a) Dunno the requirements for kyo sa nim...just know the test is mega-hard and endurance-intensive. the requirements, then, are probably everything and anything up to e dan rank. It's not like it's something you see posted on the wall. You have to be recommended to be able even to take the test.

(b) Sure. Lemme just scan the manual. Now, mind you this is an old manual, from when I first started, so some minor things may have changed. This is how it was when I was a gup level, though, and IIRC there haven't been any major changes, at least not in the hyung requirements. Also note that my mom scribbled in a few things on the one page.
Hyung Requirements
Il Soo Sik, Ho Sin Sul, and Kyok Pa requirements

There's also always sparring, one-on-one, as a requirement. In my day, we weren't required to wear pads for this, but nowadays they probably do, at least for gup levels (we don't for dan tests/recertifications, at least).

I think I may have posted this before, but here it is straight from the manual c. '99/'00.

Tang Soo!

Okay, let me try and clarify a few things...

JT - your curriculum is very traditional. In fact, most people would recognize that as TSD if they knew what they were looking at. This method of teaching isn't Korean, however. It's Japanese. In Shotokan, the root of TSD, one practices Kihon, Kata, and Kumite. Those are the three pillars. As a step between kata and kumite, one steps that included striking and grappling techniques were inserted.

What we do is very similar to this, except, I take a brick and morter approach. What you practice as kihon (kicho), I see as parts of kata. Not basic techniques. Basic techniques are things like strikes, blocks, locks, throws, pins, etc. There is not a lot of discussion about what basic techniques should look like other then technical points that make it work. We practice on pads, with partners, and with contact.

Kata shows you how to put basics together. It gives you combinations and responses to try. It shows you how and where to strike the body. For me, a technique like "gedan barai" or "hadan mahkee" is showing you a particular way to use the kihon that a student is learning.

We then incorporate that in drills and then we turn it into sparring. Thus, everything is connected at every step.

What you are doing is different then this. "Hadan mahkee" is hadan mahkee. I think you realize that it can be something else, but when you practice kihon, it is hadan mahkee. That is your focus when you are doing kicho. You aren't looking or practicing what it really was intended to do. Solving that dilemma was a years long journey for me. I didn't like practicing like that. I wanted to have what we did in basics, forms, drills, and sparring to directly build off of one another and philosophically/technically make sense.

This has not been an easy process on me or my students. I've revised my requirement sheets several times in this effort and at times they grew very frustrated in me. Now, though, I think they can see the value in what we are doing. Especially when I include the fact that this approach is historically more accurate to how te was taught.

See what I'm saying?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

upnorthkyosa: I see what you're saying, and apology accepted, but I guess we'll always disagree somewhat. In the 8 1/2 years I've been studying TSD, I've never known my instructors to leave a low block at "this is just a low block." We go far beyond just learning basics and hyung (I assume "basics" is what you mean by "kihon" - Japanese terminology is unfamiliar to me). A lot of our ho sin sul is taking stuff directly from the hyung and applying it. Which is why I didn't think my posting the general requirements would really be as informative as necessary in order for you to see how we train.

Again, next May find a way to make it to the Pittsburgh tournament - we get people all the way from Washington State and Mexico, from all different schools and disciplines - and we can discuss it further in person. If you're under 39, we might be competing in the same divisions, anyway.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

Kihon means kicho. As far as the rest, I hope so, because it would indicate a sea-change for a major ogranization. It'd be nice to see this reflected in your requirements, but the "behind the scenes" method is probably how all of this starts.

Sometime you'll have to get your ill soo shik and ho sin shul on video. I'd like to see how they relate to the hyung.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Kihon means kicho. As far as the rest, I hope so, because it would indicate a sea-change for a major ogranization. It'd be nice to see this reflected in your requirements, but the "behind the scenes" method is probably how all of this starts.

Sometime you'll have to get your ill soo shik and ho sin shul on video. I'd like to see how they relate to the hyung.

I can do that, but I'll have to find a partner...and again, there's always next May, if you want a live demonstration. The black belt il soo sik are taken directly from the pyung ahn hyung, and the others all have elements of them. There's basically nothing I can't relate to some hyung or another. A large part of the gup-level il soo sik is just dodging and countering, learning how to string together attacks, but as you get up there it's some cool stuff.