"Traditional" blocking and parrying

[Makalakumu]

In TSD, we have many techniques that could be used as blocks. The traditional Shotokan Low, High, and Middle blocks are good examples of these techniques. However, I believe that using these techniques to actually block and parry in certain ways can be ineffective and ultimately dangerous.

For example, with low block, it is commonly thought that one would use it to block a kick. However, this would meet the force of that kick and the large bones of the legs with the smallest bone of the arm. The same this happens with the "traditional" high block.

With this being said, I think that it is incredibly important to know what these techniques are actually doing and how blocking and parrying actually fits into these techniques. I will post videos of what I am talking about tonight. As far as what I would like to discuss with this thread, I would like to analyze some of the traditional blocking techniques in order to put them to practical use.

upnorthkyosa

 

[MSUTKD]

Upnorth,

My understanding is that blocking should not be about meeting the force directly. The block should redirect the force. The “traditional” high block is commonly taught incorrectly in that it assumes that the attack is coming from a high to low direction. This block is actually used for an attack coming directly for your face, like a punch. It redirects the energy over your head. The same is for the low block; it redirects the kick to the right or to the left. In that way the direct force is limited and the small bone can be used. You are correct that it would be dangerous to block force against force. That is used as a last resort. That is just the way I was taught.

ron

 

[Makalakumu]

Upnorth,

My understanding is that blocking should not be about meeting the force directly. The block should redirect the force. The “traditional” high block is commonly taught incorrectly in that it assumes that the attack is coming from a high to low direction. This block is actually used for an attack coming directly for your face, like a punch. It redirects the energy over your head. The same is for the low block; it redirects the kick to the right or to the left. In that way the direct force is limited and the small bone can be used. You are correct that it would be dangerous to block force against force. That is used as a last resort. That is just the way I was taught.

ron

One of the things that I try to keep in mind when looking at these techniques is this question..."What do I do when I spar?"

If someone throws a full speed full power technique at me, I try to minimize the amount of movement that I need in order to get out of the way and guide the force past me. There is a blocking set that we learn in TSD that does this and that is what I'm going to get some video of tonight.

When I analyze the traditional blocking techniques, I see lots of superfluous motion and positioning that does not remove the body from "the line of fire" so to speak. Often there are multiple intermediate positions and small hand movements that make little sense when one is simply thinking about blocking or parrying a technique.

The intermediate positions are the key...

 

[MSUTKD]

I look forward to the videos. I have often wondered about the usefulness of many "traditional" skills.

 

[Henderson]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions. "Blocking", that is. To "block" anything indicates stopping the movement. This does no good. This is not limited to TSD. I for one, do not train in TSD. Blocking is taught as part of uke waza in Japanese schools (age uke, kake uke, etc). However, the Japanese word "uke" does not mean "to block". It translates better as "to receive". Effective "blocking" must do three things (imo) 1. Keep me from getting hit. 2. Take the attackers balance away. 3. Put me in a better position to counter. These cannot be accomplished by meeting force on force. Plus, that would really hurt!

I look forward to the video.

 

[Makalakumu]

The point about the word for "block" actually meaning "to recieve" is how I teach this stuff in my dojang. I was a Japanese stylist before I switched to a Korean style, so the Japanese Terminology is familiar.

Maybe MSUTKD can help with this...does "Mahkee" translate similarly to "Uke"?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Here are the promised videos. The first is the TSD blocking hyung that I teach. There are 8 basic techniques that use the arms and body shifts that guide the force of an attack on by and put one in a good position to counter attack.

Understanding these blocks is fundamental to understanding some of the traditional basics because all of these movements are incorporated in doing those basics. I think that this is a good functional basic blocking system and when I'm sparring, I find myself using these blocks all of the time.

Please have a look and comment.

 

[Makalakumu]

The next four videos are the blocking techniques presented in the form. This form repeats itself on both sides so each technique can be done with both hands. Please comment.

 

[tsdclaflin]

I think of a low block as a hammerfist to a muscle, not my bone against bone.

When I step in and high block my target is just below the elbow, devastating.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think of a low block as a hammerfist to a muscle, not my bone against bone.

When I step in and high block my target is just below the elbow, devastating.

I think that is definitely a conceivable application for high block. However, in the vein of looking at these as "uke" or "mahkee" in the sense that they receive, then it is important to understand that all of these movements are the intermediate positions for the classical techniques. The movements that follow afterward are the actual counter.

In the context of the hyung, the block/strike patterns that are surficially apparent take on a whole new meaning in this light. Check out some of the threads about the pyung ahns in this forum. This basic blocking really is a key to understanding kata. Without it, they make little sense.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

The next four videos are the blocking techniques presented in the form. This form repeats itself on both sides so each technique can be done with both hands. Please comment.

The first two are very useful, and actually similar to what we do for il soo sik in the ITF. The second two...I'm not sure where you're going with them, especially since you want to see yourself as receiving the attack. You got to the side enough on both of those that you're only really slapping the opponent's leg, not redirecting it away from you. You get that much to the side, you should just counter-attack.

I agree with you completely that there's more behind a simple mahkee than meets the eye. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing on the surface. I might not block a kick with a strict hadan mahkee in front stance, but that doesn't invalidate hadan mahkee as a block against a low attack, or even against a mid attack. The different levels are what make learning martial arts so great. Any given technique can be one of several things, depending on how far you look into it.

Great example of this: in sip soo (ship soo, if you prefer), the third move has you pivoting your left wrist so that your palm is inward, followed by a knife-hand block toward your right. That knife-hand block can be powerful and applied in many different situations. Learn to do it well, and it can serve you well. You want to see what's really awesome about the form, though, and you find out that you could also see that sequence as an escape. Your right arm is grabbed, say, at the forearm, or even at the shoulder. You grab the opponent's neck (the wrist pivot) and, stepping into the opponent, use that same knife-hand to knock the grabbing hand off you...and now you're in great position for a hip throw or a sweep. There are probably a lot more applications than that, of course. I'm just giving the one my sa bom nim gives most often. But my point is that the fact that you have that encoded into the hyung doesn't invalidate the fact that the knife-hand block in that position can be used for a number of things. Neither invalidates the other.

 

[Tez3]

This is very frustrating as I can't see what you're talking about! I clicked on and got a thing to sign up to but all it said was there was no 'plug in'. it wouldn't play or download.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

This is very frustrating as I can't see what you're talking about! I clicked on and got a thing to sign up to but all it said was there was no 'plug in'. it wouldn't play or download.

Odd. Do you have Windows Media Player? They're just .avi movie files. Then again, maybe it's your computer?

 

[Makalakumu]

Great example of this: in sip soo (ship soo, if you prefer), the third move has you pivoting your left wrist so that your palm is inward, followed by a knife-hand block toward your right. That knife-hand block can be powerful and applied in many different situations. Learn to do it well, and it can serve you well. You want to see what's really awesome about the form, though, and you find out that you could also see that sequence as an escape. Your right arm is grabbed, say, at the forearm, or even at the shoulder. You grab the opponent's neck (the wrist pivot) and, stepping into the opponent, use that same knife-hand to knock the grabbing hand off you...and now you're in great position for a hip throw or a sweep. There are probably a lot more applications than that, of course. I'm just giving the one my sa bom nim gives most often. But my point is that the fact that you have that encoded into the hyung doesn't invalidate the fact that the knife-hand block in that position can be used for a number of things. Neither invalidates the other.

This is true, however, doesn't calling that technique a "knife hand block" seem misleading? Especially after the revelation that you have had as to its actual purpose. IMO, continuing to call it a "knife hand block" is a tad dishonest after you know what it really can be used for. This is just something to think about JT. By all means, listen to your teacher and learn, but at some point, you will have to address these issues. Especially if you decide to teach this art.

The bottom line is that some of this doesn't make any sense. Like the example above. You can call a "knife hand block" a knife hand block all you want until you realize that is not what it really is used for. Then you've got to change.

All of this may seem like semantics, but its not. This issue drives straight to the deepest philosophy of your art. JT, at 2nd dan, you are at the point where you really need to start examining the underlying structure and philosophy of what you are learning. I don't know what ITF rules are, but in the MDK, you could be a Kyo Sa. You could teach.

That means you need to start thinking about what you really want to accomplish and how you want to get there. If you think the forms have something very valuable and purposeful to teach, then you really have got a lot of thinking to do in regards to that.

I'm going to tell you from experience, that you cannot proceed as has been expected if you expect to actually put the knowledge that is contained in the hyung to use. My advice is to go out and take a jujutsu class. Not judo. Find a classic jujutsu class that will teach you the formal way of performing joint locks. As soon as you see the first list, it will blow your mind. All of the hyung you know will suddenly go from black and white to color.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I don't see it as dishonest at all. I see it as having multiple levels, like I said. My sa bom nim never hid from me the deeper meaning behind the move, after all. And I do learn how to do joint locks, etc. It's all part of ho sin sul. Believe me; there are plenty of nights when I go home with my wrists, elbows, and shoulders sore from all the joint locking drills. I've learned to see these things in hyung because of learning them as part of other drills in class. Personally, I think that's a pretty good way to do it, since you get the move in isolation and then learn to see it as you're doing the hyung. I don't see a need to go to jujitsu or aikido or hapkido for that, because it's already part of the curriculum for me.

And yes, technically I could test to be a kyo sa nim at this point, but I'm not going for that any time soon. I don't have the stamina. And in any case, my sa bom nim would have to recommend me, and he sees it my way too.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't see it as dishonest at all. I see it as having multiple levels, like I said.

I think that is just where you are at right now. Understanding this is a progression. If you start to teach this art, some of these questions will pop up. Teaching makes you look at everything through a different lense.

My sa bom nim never hid from me the deeper meaning behind the move, after all. And I do learn how to do joint locks, etc. It's all part of ho sin sul. Believe me; there are plenty of nights when I go home with my wrists, elbows, and shoulders sore from all the joint locking drills. I've learned to see these things in hyung because of learning them as part of other drills in class. Personally, I think that's a pretty good way to do it, since you get the move in isolation and then learn to see it as you're doing the hyung. I don't see a need to go to jujitsu or aikido or hapkido for that, because it's already part of the curriculum for me.

That's cool that its part of your curriculum. It was always part of mine. My suggestion was to learn the formal way of doing it though. The way you learn it in hosinshul is not jujutsu kata and you'll have to trust me until you experience it, there is a difference.

Further, jujutsu kata are a lot older then hosinshul. Some of them are old enough to date back to a time before certain kata that we practice were created. Some of those techniques are exactly shown in some of our kata. For example, the opening move in naihanchi cho dan. Most people think it is a block of some kind. When you see katate tori ichi you'll know exactly what that move is.

And yes, technically I could test to be a kyo sa nim at this point, but I'm not going for that any time soon. I don't have the stamina. And in any case, my sa bom nim would have to recommend me, and he sees it my way too.

JT, could you do me a huge favor? Would you post your requirements for kyo sa and maybe a requirement sheet for one of your gup ranks? I've very curious as to how your art is arranged. I'd also like to compare and contrast a few things so you can better understand what we do.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

JT, could you do me a huge favor? Would you post your requirements for kyo sa and maybe a requirement sheet for one of your gup ranks? I've very curious as to how your art is arranged. I'd also like to compare and contrast a few things so you can better understand what we do.

(a) Dunno the requirements for kyo sa nim...just know the test is mega-hard and endurance-intensive. the requirements, then, are probably everything and anything up to e dan rank. It's not like it's something you see posted on the wall. You have to be recommended to be able even to take the test.

(b) Sure. Lemme just scan the manual. Now, mind you this is an old manual, from when I first started, so some minor things may have changed. This is how it was when I was a gup level, though, and IIRC there haven't been any major changes, at least not in the hyung requirements. Also note that my mom scribbled in a few things on the one page.
Hyung Requirements
Il Soo Sik, Ho Sin Sul, and Kyok Pa requirements

There's also always sparring, one-on-one, as a requirement. In my day, we weren't required to wear pads for this, but nowadays they probably do, at least for gup levels (we don't for dan tests/recertifications, at least).

I think I may have posted this before, but here it is straight from the manual c. '99/'00.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks, JT. It looks pretty traditional regarding TSD. I'll post something longer with more comparison when I've got the time.

 

[kyosa]

First I think we need to define what exactly were talking about. Blocking? Or the techniques in basics and forms which are called blocks or blocking techniques?

A definition of block from websters dictionary is: to make unsuitable for passage or progress by obstruction. To hinder the passage, progress, or accomplishment of by or as if interposing an obstruction.

My take on this is that beginners need to learn how not to get hit by first learning how to keep their hands and arms up and/or protect their vital areas. As a law enforcement defensive tactics instructor this includes a natural flinch response to being attacked by ducking and covering but also includes natural movements which come from our forms and basics that protect vs a variety of attacks. Alot of what they're learning is force on force-but these are beginner techniques.

advanced beginners need to learn how to dodge attacks so as not to get hit. When an attacker strikes they just aren't there to get hit.

Advanced students learn advanced technique such as simultanious block counter, defanging the snake( basically take your attackers weapons away from him as he attacks you), stop hit (which means you hit them before they can get their attack off) and at the highest level you attack them when they formulate the attack in their mind but haven't physically attacked yet. In japanese I believe this is called Sen no Sen? Upnorth kyosa and I were at a seminar many years ago when this concept was being taught by a Japanese sensei. We enjoyed working on this and it has been incorperated into our training ever since.

You'll notice I haven't even discussed a single block or technique yet. The techniques that come out of our basics and forms incorperate many of these concepts. In fact a technique from one of our forms or basics can have elements of some or all of these concepts. Go back to the websters definition and you will see all of these concepts work into the concept of blocking.

 

[Makalakumu]

All of these concepts are part of this topic, but also, I think, the context in which "blocks" were incorporated into the forms, is important. The creators of the hyung were trying to show us something with the techniques we call blocks, but this information was intentionally obfuscated as it was passed from person to person. This has essentially led to methods of practice and terminology that is not helpful to really understanding what hyung have to teach. IMHO, straightening out this syncratic mess completely changes the focus of the art.

I look at JT's requirements and, as a teacher, now that I know certain things, I could not practice the art that way anymore. Nor can I teach it that way anymore. It's as if one has discovered, after writing the alphabet for years and years and years, the symbols have greater meaning when strung together in words and sentances.