Tracy Kenpo Better Then EPAKK!

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I would love to hear everyones ideas about this (Yes, even you Doc!)
I found it on the Tracy Web Site

:jedi1:


(* Article removed due to violation of Fair Use and Copy Right issues. *)
Please provide a link to the article for the discussion.

Thank you

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator

 

[Gentle Fist]

Interesting post, thanks.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Should anybody be surprised that Tracy's site praises Tracy's background? Keeper of the one great truth?

 

[Seabrook]

If Tracy Kenpo is better than EPAK, why do I keep getting Tracy Kenpo black belts come to me to learn EPAK? Let me guess, it must be a "school specific" or "instructor specific" thing?

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some amazing Tracy guys, but it's time for us EPAK practitioners to stand up for what we believe and to stop being cowards when these guys constantly criticize Ed Parker and the great system he devised. If you want my honest opinion, I feel the vast majority of EPAK black belts move better than most Tracy black belts (again, I am speaking on average).


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[evenflow1121]

Most of the people that I ever ran into that studied Tracy and then studied EPAK preferred EPAK over the Tracy System.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It will never be possible to settle these arguments, given that the people making them are at least as full of crap as anyone they're attacking.

The only thing to do is train, stop from time to time to think about your training critically, and (from time to time) look at these various fanciful histories to try and scrape the bits of reality out of them.

Useful guides: ANY time somebody tells you they're not being political, they're being political. And ANY time somebody ties martial arts back to a clear and straightforward, single historical line, they're wrong.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Caveat Emptor!

So much energy to try to drag down a man after his death. Mr. Parkers legacy is not his belt ranking but his students and their students. Chow himself discredited Mitose and called him a conman and a fraud. Chow was a great artist but Mr. Parkers ranking had nothing to do with Mr. Chow and everything to do with his own system and his own students.

Now ask yourself why more than 10 years after Mr. Parker's death, the Tracy site still feels compelled to attack him personally.

Jeff

 

[evenflow1121]

Caveat Emptor!

So much energy to try to drag down a man after his death. Mr. Parkers legacy is not his belt ranking but his students and their students. Chow himself discredited Mitose and called him a conman and a fraud. Chow was a great artist but Mr. Parkers ranking had nothing to do with Mr. Chow and everything to do with his own system and his own students.

Now ask yourself why more than 10 years after Mr. Parker's death, the Tracy site still feels compelled to attack him personally.

Jeff

Excellent post, there are so many EPAK students that never got to meet GMS Parker in life, and yet feel close to him one way or another and appreciate his contributions not only to martial arts but to their lives through Kenpo. Very few system founders could probably say the same about themselves.

 

[kenpo_cory]

The Racial Issue

The second division, though equal in weight of importance, was the racist posture Ed Parker had taken with blacks. Blacks could not hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church at that time, and blacks were denied an effective voice and went generally unrecognized in American Kenpo. Policies, like requiring a "written thesis" for black belts, was implemented the year after Congress passed the Civil Rights Act. This was done with full knowledge that blacks were not versed in white America 's higher education system.

In the first ten years Ed Parker taught Kenpo, the number of blacks could be counted on the finger of one hand, and nearly as inconspicuous were females in Parkers early schools. The few blacks who came in later, like Steve Sanders and Donny Williams, rose to black belt rank, only to find themselves without a voice in white bread American Kenpo. Racism (black) is not defined by the number of blacks in an organization, but by the number of blacks in high positions in the organization, and when Tracy ’s split from Ed Parker there were no blacks in high positions, and none were allowed.

A link was already posted to this garbage somewhere else on martial talk and Mr. Chapel already gave his opinion on the garbage quoted above. If you look its here somewhere.

 

[eyebeams]

So aside from number of techniques, what are the differences in training, theory and methodology?

 

[kenpo_cory]

I was looking around and found it. If you look through page 5 on the Parker or Lee thread you'll find Mr. Conatser's opinion about the religious crap posted in that article as well as Mr. Chapel's opinion about the racial B.S.

 

[Blindside]

Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death. Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.

Lamont

 

[Ender]

Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death. Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.

Lamont

Did Tracy write it?..or was it written by someone else?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death. Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.

Lamont

Agreed. Perhaps the Tracy students should apply pressure to remove this derogatory trash.

Jeff

 

[Blindside]

Did Tracy write it?..or was it written by someone else?

This series of articles was written by Will Tracy (there are three Tracy brothers; Jim, Al, Will), my understanding is that Will is not associated with the Tracy Kenpo organization any longer. However, since these articles were on the official Tracy webpage for a number of years, any reasonable person would hold the Tracy organization at least partially responsible.

The pages were eventually taken off the webpage (probably 3/4 years go), but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo). I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles. If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.

Lamont

 

[Goldendragon7]

If Tracy Kenpo is better than EPAK, why do I keep getting Tracy Kenpo black belts come to me to learn EPAK?

Well, if they are coming to you.... that is not a new thing. Ed Parker had many a Tracy student "return home to the nest" so to speak, once they realized just who and where the real material originated from (I was from a Tracy background up thru 2nd black myself! so I KNOW the difference 1st hand), I also for the past 30 years have experienced and still experience the same as you, except now I get the additional treat to help those that train what they tell me is EPAK but want to learn the material that I teach and then realize what EPAK. really is. :uhyeah: Go figure... SSDD I guess

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some amazing Tracy guys.

Agreed !!!!

It's time for us EPAK practitioners to stand up for what we believe and to stop being cowards when these guys constantly criticize Ed Parker and the great system he devised.

Well, you have to speak for yourself here pal, I have NEVER considered myself a coward when it comes to MY ART and MY TEACHER/S !!!! It's just that I refuse to do battle with unarmed opponents. I mean after all...... who is more foolish.... THE FOOL or the FOOL arguing with the FOOL? :idunno:

 

[Sigung86]

Agreed. Perhaps the Tracy students should apply pressure to remove this derogatory trash.

Jeff

Jeff,

I attempted to do that very thing and as a result, was rather unceremoniously dumped out of the ASSociation. Funnily, the only way I really found out is that I was reading on one of the other "seniors" forums, and he was posting the whole rant thing about me and how Al Tracy hadn't ever heard of me. that was in spite of the extra money I paid to get my black silk/paper with gold print certificate, signed by Al, Pat, and Mark Tracy and with a serial number. At any rate, I called Al and all he would tell me is that I had pissed off a number of association members and that I was out of the association and should go do my own thing. (I guess it was the statement I made here on MT that there are "Tracy folks who think Tom Connor was a better martial artist than Al" that became the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were).

BTW... My name, rank, and serial number have been removed from the Tracy family tree, as well. So I am, so to speak, excommunicated, and therefore, so much for the claim of the "most accurate" family tree.

The whole point being, is that if you go and read on the attendent forum, you will find that the Tracy group is not even remotely interested in taking down the inciteful material, declare this material to be the truth. I believe that the whole thing is a Tracy political thing that is ingrained. If you don't want to dislike Ed Parker, and slam on EPAK, your time in the association is limited to the moment that one of the higher ups figures that out. :boing2:

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have removed the article in question based upon fair use and copy right issues. If a link can be provided I will edit the original post to have the link for futhre discussion.

I apologize for the inconvience of this issue.

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator

 

[Michael Billings]

It is ok to post the link to the article Rich removed, with a short exerpt. But we have been advised it could get us in legal trouble if we reproduce articles or works in their entirety, without the author's permission.

Now, for my comment:

You know how many people believe anything they read? Lots and lots of them. Then they cite it as a "reliable" source and the arguements begin. Those who are old dogs know better, but how do you convice a 21 year old black belt in Tracy kenpo, who has not heard anything else ... and they know what they learn and their teachers share, is gospel.

Well this crap has been around for over a decade and people still believe it, of course you can find proof positive about the moon being made out of green cheese according to google, or maybe it was froogle.

Few things really piss me off, but this is one of the ones that does. It slanders my lineage (EPAK), and reflects poorly on the other earlier part of my lineage (Chinese Kenpo). I am chewing nails right now, but nowhere to spit the tacks.

:angry:
-Michael

 

[Goldendragon7]

Jeff,
I was rather unceremoniously dumped out of the ASSociation. I paid to get my black silk/paper with gold print certificate, signed by Al, Pat, and Mark Tracy and with a serial number. At any rate, I called Al and all he would tell me is that I had pissed off a number of association members and that I was out of the association and should go do my own thing.

BTW... My name, rank, and serial number have been removed from the Tracy family tree, as well. So I am, so to speak, excommunicated.

A very unfortunate and childish method of with dealing with a problem for sure [IMHO]! But it goes to show you the truth and quality the current leadership of the "one time" largest Kenpo organization that is now reduced to a minimum number of followers that only get ignored or booted if the $$$ stops. A real class act to belong to. (I guess that's why I {and thousands of others} are not there! %-} well, now you can understand why the ill feelings at times.

Dan and I have been friends and associates for a few years now, even tho we have disagreed at times on certain issues, organizations and individuals political history have always played second string to our friendship and truth.

:supcool:

PS..... and yes Michael (Billings) it also bugs me too! You could try spitting the tacks towards San Jose or Kentucky:idea: :uhyeah: