Touching your Students

[Ping898]

I am wondering what policies people have in their schools about touching their students.
Like in my first school, the policy was you never touch anyone when teaching, below the shoulders, ecspecially kids and people of opposite gender.
At my current school, as far as I can tell there is no policy and I have seen the instructors do stuff like put a couple fingers on each hip of a kid to try and stop them from rotating their hips when doing a back kick, like show them what not rotating would feel like, that kind of thing.
Though even with this policy in my first school one of our instructors was accused and is being brought to trial for inappropriately touching a minor at the school. And not to get too long winded on that aspect of it I don't think he did it and neither does any of the other instructors at the school or anyone who knows him, but he is now being brought up on criminal charges.
Now at my new school, I just joined it in Feb and just joined the instructor's class a few weeks ago, so I am not sure if my past experiences with something like this is a topic of concern I should bring up. I don't know if anyone else notices it and honestly doubt I would give it much thought if it weren't for the legal problems of my other friend.
So basically I am wondeing if people have policies in place or have run into problems without them.

Thanks.
Peace.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wow, we touch our students all the time. The parents are usualy right there so, its not as if they don't expect to see it. Grappling with students and females requires you do exactly as you are instructing. Its would be a bad time to get creative with minor moves, unless that is the lesson.
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Martial Arts is a contact sport. The fact that you are even asking this question is mind-boggling. Get over it!

 

[KenpoTess]

Our Techniques are practiced with a partner and without. When we do a tec with a partner, we 'do' the tec. In American Kenpo we have direct contact. There are many techniques involving sword hands, hammer fists, etc to the groin. Do we hope our partner has a cup on if male? Of course~! We kick to the groin. One particular Blue belt tec involves striking the opponents forearm into his/her own groin, and reaching behind them pulling their wrist between their legs....etc. How are you going to demonstrate without touch? Any minor involved in our school KNOWS they are not going to be touched inappropriately and the parents are welcomed to watch any class. I've been grabbed, pinched, kicked in the chest and groin by my students and instructors and never have I considered it inappropriate.
I guess if anyone has a concern.. they are in the wrong school.

Just my thoughts :asian:

Tess

 

[Ceicei]

At my school, there is clear understanding of what is acceptable contact. It is emphasized that we teach martial arts which does involve direct contact. It is outlined in the registration form. Classes are always open for parents/family members and friends to watch.

In the children's curriculum, the children are taught some groundfighting techniques, meaning they learn how to defend if they are taken to the ground and straddled (as is common with bullies and/or older attackers). The instructors always explain in advance, step by step, what moves to make and where the strike targets are. The instructor demonstrates on another instructor so the children can see how it is done, then they all practice. This explaining/showing procedure is done with all techniques, both stand-up and ground.

The same procedure (explaining/showing) is done with the adult classes too. With the newbies, these students are sometimes uncomfortable with the technique called "Bow of Compulson" which requires a hand placed on the chest. Once they learn how and why it is done, they aren't fazed any more and understand that martial arts is a contact activity.

So far with the clear, explicit explanation and demonstration by the instructors, the dojo has been able to avoid problems with inappropriate touching. Parents/spouses are always encouraged to bring up concerns with the head instructor and/or dojo director.

- Ceicei

 

[theletch1]

So THIS is where all the no touch knock outs come from! But, seriously, I can understand your concern after just coming from the situation that was going on at the last school. As everyone else has pointed out thus far, martial arts is all about the contact. Policies on inappropriate touching are fairly universal. Often it is the intent of the touch that makes it inappropriate and not the touch itself. I grapple with a female friend of mine quite often and the mount is just that... a grappling technique, nothing more. Now, if I were to show lecherous intent during this then the mount would be inappropriate touching. If you are that concerned with the situation, discuss it with your instructor and perhaps they can give you a first hand perspective on touching.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

1 school I know of has a 'no contact' policy. It was put into place because one of the 'karate moms' freaked out when an instructor made the mistake of touching her delicate flower and guided the little darling through a block/counter sequence.

There is 'appropriate' and 'inappropriate' contact.

Appropriate might be to guide my hands or feet.
To control my momentum.
Normal contact while grappling or doing takedowns and submissions.

Inappropriate contact would be deliberate contact of a sexual 'flavor'.
This is especially of concern in private back room 1 on 1's.

I don't consider an accidental 'boob' contact to be a 'bad touch'. I've taken my share of groin contacts while training....you get over it, y'know?

The reason why we wear cups, supporters, and protectors is to protect.

The reality is, the longer you train, the more likely you are to eventually have had every inch of your body touched at least once.

Someone who is not comfortable being touched has every right to maintain their 'personal space'.
When not training.
When training, to get the most of it, you must put aside your phobias.

Sadly, today, everyone wants a quick buck and is ready to sue. Instructors, teachers and mentors all face the reality that a well meaning pat on the back may mean huge legal bills and a tainted reputation.

 

[MJS]

Martial Arts is a contact sport. The fact that you are even asking this question is mind-boggling. Get over it!

I agree with OFK here. The arts are a contact sport. Therefore contact should be expected. However, we need to have everyones best interest in mind. I've had this discussion on another forum regarding teaching grappling to women. I feel that if you want to learn the arts, thats fine. You should not be going to a school to 'hook up' with someone. Its hard enough at times to get female students to walk through the door, without them having to worry about them getting groped by every male in the place!

Mike

 

[Nightingale]

For instructors with adult students, it shouldn't be an issue.

For instructors teaching minors in group classes, with an adult assistant instructor, it also shouldn't be an issue.

I would, however, advise instructors not to give private lessons to students without their parents or a designated representative present. just to CYA.

 

[loki09789]

If this is really a concern, just contact or look up the harrassment policy of most major businesses. Modify the details to fit your working environment but maintains the spirit and impliment it, either personally or as a school wide policy.

Inappropriate touching could be construde as a form of harrassment and therefore those policies apply for work place issues. Since you are an instructor, paid or not, you are operating in a workplace at the times that you assume that role of instructor. Even as a fellow student, client/operator agreements can be specified to include a Harassment policy with consequences as minimal as verbal warning all the way up to being thrown out (verbally) without refunding membership fees. Charges would have to be pressed by the party that felt harassed, so penal law really wouldn't apply for the business operator.

 

[7starmantis]

It is something that needs to be addresses especially with private lessons and such. Its not that you don't make contact, but in today's society it is something to keep in the back of your head. If we are helping a kid put on thier sash or something our instructors do it facing the class and such like that.

To ignore this issue is blind ignorance in my opinion. I'm not saying you go crazy, but knowing how to protect yourself or CYA is important.

7sm

 

[Ping898]

I realize martial arts is a contact sport and your can't effectively teach it without touching someone. And I am also not talking about when you are doing something like teaching a technique and demonstrate it on the body. I know that some techniques are easier to learn when you have had it done on you. You have a better idea where to hit or what the moves you are doing will actually accomplish. And I am not talking student to student contact either, like when you are in class learning or such. Or someone getting hit in the groin or accidental "boob" brushing. That happens, but 99% of the time with adults or when sparring or between two students. Had all those things happen to me and know it was never meant to be done in a perverse or sexual way.

I am actually just concerned mostly with the kids. Yes the parents are there and as far as I know no private lessons are done without the parents present as well. But the same rules were in place at my first school and when the alleged incident happened, and 200 people were in the school at the time, so not even like the instructor was completely alone then either. And it may just be an attitude thing, one of the things I have noticed since moving is people back home in New England are at times really uptight, and in New Mexico the attitude is very relaxed, so could just be that no matter how innocent the contact the parents went off the deep end. I just know that right now I have a friend whose life is shot to heck and no matter what the outcome of the trial will never be the same for him or his family and don't want to go through that with another friend if it can be avoided. And I am not sure if this past problem is something I should share with my new instructor or just something I should let be as a fluke, that doesn't happen most every place else.

 

[Nightingale]

Ping, I've gotta say, as a skydiver, I LOVE your sig line!

 

[Ceicei]

I am actually just concerned mostly with the kids. Yes the parents are there and as far as I know no private lessons are done without the parents present as well. But the same rules were in place at my first school and when the alleged incident happened, and 200 people were in the school at the time, so not even like the instructor was completely alone then either. And it may just be an attitude thing, one of the things I have noticed since moving is people back home in New England are at times really uptight, and in New Mexico the attitude is very relaxed, so could just be that no matter how innocent the contact the parents went off the deep end. I just know that right now I have a friend whose life is shot to heck and no matter what the outcome of the trial will never be the same for him or his family and don't want to go through that with another friend if it can be avoided. And I am not sure if this past problem is something I should share with my new instructor or just something I should let be as a fluke, that doesn't happen most every place else.

It may be partly an attitude/regional thing, but not entirely. I grew up in New Mexico and the West in some ways view things a little differently than the East does, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Another thing our head instructor does is when a kid is being signed up, he makes sure to meet the parent(s). It is more than just to get acquainted. The instructor also does an indirect assessment to see how the parents feel about martial arts, their reasoning for putting their kid into martial arts, how parents talk about/relate to their kid, and whether they are aware about the physical contact that is part of the training, and answers any concerns or questions they may have. Many times, he will invite the parents to sign up or try a class or two. Any parent who stays to watch their kid practice, he will make sure to take a moment to chat a bit. This helps him to understand the kid's family a bit better by getting a handle on the general attitude of the family.

This also helps him to keep an eye on, what another MT user termed 'karate mom or dad" or potential problem parent.

- Ceicei

 

[Cryozombie]

I have been touched a lot in my training... My instructor moves my body if its wrong. The Senior blackbelts do so as well. Ive been kicked in the groin. Touched in the groin, (In a technique specific, non sexual way) I have grabbed female students around the body in a bear hug where my hands are on or touching her breasts, and my instructor has even touched my butt while adjusting my hip position... BUT IT WAS ALL RELATING TO TRAINING IN A CONTACT ART... NONE of it came across "sexual" in nature.

That said, my instructor also turned away the 16 year old daughter of one of his neighbors BECAUSE we have contact in our school, and he didn't want any misunderstandings with her family. His school is a private, non commercial club, so it was very easy for him to do that... and he discussed the decision with us.

People NEED to understand if they put their kids into MA, it's NOT T-ball, or Field Hockey, or any other "afterschool activity" and their kids WILL be touched. If my school went to a "no contact" policy because of some accusation, I'd quit.

Oh, and Nightingale, it's not skydiving at all if you dont have a Parachute... its PLUMMETING!

 

[c2kenpo]

1 school I know of has a 'no contact' policy. It was put into place because one of the 'karate moms' freaked out when an instructor made the mistake of touching her delicate flower and guided the little darling through a block/counter sequence.

There is 'appropriate' and 'inappropriate' contact.

Appropriate might be to guide my hands or feet.
To control my momentum.
Normal contact while grappling or doing takedowns and submissions.

Inappropriate contact would be deliberate contact of a sexual 'flavor'.
This is especially of concern in private back room 1 on 1's.

I don't consider an accidental 'boob' contact to be a 'bad touch'. I've taken my share of groin contacts while training....you get over it, y'know?

The reason why we wear cups, supporters, and protectors is to protect.

The reality is, the longer you train, the more likely you are to eventually have had every inch of your body touched at least once.

Someone who is not comfortable being touched has every right to maintain their 'personal space'.
When not training.
When training, to get the most of it, you must put aside your phobias.

Sadly, today, everyone wants a quick buck and is ready to sue. Instructors, teachers and mentors all face the reality that a well meaning pat on the back may mean huge legal bills and a tainted reputation.

I think this is the most accurate description I have heard so far of the "acceptable" policy.
I know that when I am teaching I make every effort to make all "touches" a pat on the shoulder, high-five, or "loving" headlock and "noogie" when it is a casual moment i.e. after class, before class. Anything more I personally feel could be taken out of context by any individual not knowing the relationship between the instructors and students. "Keep It Safe Students"
During class yes contact is contact and in the Martial Arts and Life there are two ways of gettting hit, intentionally and unintentionally. Sometimes you have the "training hit" that could be considered wrong but that is where you should match up female students to female students / instructors whenever possible.
Otherwise Mr. Kaith Rustaz wonderful post sir!.

David Gunzburg

 

[MJS]

I have been touched a lot in my training... My instructor moves my body if its wrong. The Senior blackbelts do so as well. Ive been kicked in the groin. Touched in the groin, (In a technique specific, non sexual way) I have grabbed female students around the body in a bear hug where my hands are on or touching her breasts, and my instructor has even touched my butt while adjusting my hip position... BUT IT WAS ALL RELATING TO TRAINING IN A CONTACT ART... NONE of it came across "sexual" in nature.

That said, my instructor also turned away the 16 year old daughter of one of his neighbors BECAUSE we have contact in our school, and he didn't want any misunderstandings with her family. His school is a private, non commercial club, so it was very easy for him to do that... and he discussed the decision with us.

People NEED to understand if they put their kids into MA, it's NOT T-ball, or Field Hockey, or any other "afterschool activity" and their kids WILL be touched. If my school went to a "no contact" policy because of some accusation, I'd quit.

Oh, and Nightingale, it's not skydiving at all if you dont have a Parachute... its PLUMMETING!

Another good point. With people so worried about touching someone in the wrong way, I often wonder how any training is accomplished at all. If SD is your goal, then I would think that you'd want to be put in the proper mindset. What do I mean by this? Take a look at someone like Peyton Quinn. He offers an adrenal stress conditioning course. In this course, he has an 'attacker' in a padded suit. The 'attacker' yells, swears, pushes, shoves, calls you names, etc. Why? To get your mind into that stressfull mode!! In addition, you're then able to go all out with your punches/kicks/strikes. Granted, this is an extreme program, so its not for everyone, but IMO, if you're really serious about SD, and had the $ to go to it, I feel that it'd be well worth it. However, you dont need to travel for something like this. It can be done right in your own school. With a little imagination, anything can be done.

Mike

 

[MJS]

1 school I know of has a 'no contact' policy. It was put into place because one of the 'karate moms' freaked out when an instructor made the mistake of touching her delicate flower and guided the little darling through a block/counter sequence.

Well, IMO, her delicate flower should not be in a martial arts program. Why did she enroll her anyway? Maybe she should keep her at home, locked in her room, so nobody can hurt her.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Martial Arts is a contact sport. The fact that you are even asking this question is mind-boggling. Get over it!

I'm kinda with OFK with this one. I just don't see how you can do anything accept cardio-kickboxing w/o some contact. But, this is just my experience because I come from a heavy contact school.

 

[dearnis.com]

There isn't much you can teach (correctly) without having hands on..humans simply dont mimic as exactly as is sometimes needed. (show me a baseball or golf coach who doesnt position students physically...)