Took a concealed carry class yesterday...

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm encouraged to see many 'civilian' ranges/organizations offer solid, combat-oriented training for citizens. By 'combat' I'm not referring to the battlefield, rather to all the factors that a private citizen is likely (or could possibly occur) to encounter during a shooting. Malfunction clearing. Reloading (and or chambering) one-handed. All drills while under stress. Fast reloads. Cover and concealment. Shoot and no-shoot situations. Tactically covering the target/scanning the area for threats. Firing from different angles/position of disadvantage. Dim light firing. Holstering. Basically anything/everything beyond just shooting paper.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Looks like I wasn't far behind you, Air Force 85-89 active and 89-93 inactive. Sheriff's Office 1990 to present.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Looks like I wasn't far behind you, Air Force 85-89 active and 89-93 inactive. Sheriff's Office 1990 to present.

I also worked for a large metro PD after being an MP in the Marines. I was a dispatcher. Went back to college and decided I liked I.T. work better.

 

[drop bear]

1. I don't like mandatory training. As a gun carrier I assume the liability of it. If you are gonna require training....then that training ought to share the liability as well.

2. You should be proficient but shouldn't be required....again unless the state and/or instructor is gonna share the liability.

3. Agree

4. Because of liability reasons a lot of agencies have ended ride alongs

The thing is do you support every moron who carrys and doesn't get training.

 

[CB Jones]

The thing is do you support every moron who carrys and doesn't get training.

Absolutely, the constitution doesn't come with an IQ test.

And your rights shouldn't be administered on a sliding scale.

And we shouldn't restrict your rights for the fear someone else might abuse or misuse them.

You hold people accountable for their actions instead of punishing everyone for the mistakes of few.

 

[drop bear]

Absolutely, the constitution doesn't come with an IQ test.

And your rights shouldn't be administered on a sliding scale.

And we shouldn't restrict your rights for the fear someone else might abuse or misuse them.

You hold people accountable for their actions instead of punishing everyone for the mistakes of few.

This is not a common idea though. The idea that someone should be licenced and trained before they touch the explosive stuff is a pretty accepted notion.

I don't think we are punishing doctors by requiring them to be trained.

 

[CB Jones]

I don't think we are punishing doctors by requiring them to be trained.

What constitutional amendment grants you the right to be a doctor?

and its apples to oranges....do you have to be a licensed doctor to treat yourself? Am I required to have a medical license to diagnose myself with the common cold and treat it with over the counter medication?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now I personally don't think a law abiding citizen should be required to purchase a CCW permit. No problem with a background check or even proving some competent training. But one should not have to pay for a Constitutional right imo. But that is another topic. As far as a CCW, the more law abiding citizens that have one the better. As I near retirement I'll probably get mine again just to augment H.R. 218. And also to avoid the asinine 3-day wait.

In principle, I agree. However, someone has to pay for it. Raising taxes is one option, but that's unpopular, to say the least. So, requiring an application/permit fee is one way to cover the cost of administering the program.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In principle, I agree. However, someone has to pay for it. Raising taxes is one option, but that's unpopular, to say the least. So, requiring an application/permit fee is one way to cover the cost of administering the program.

Well I agree that the actual physical permit cost something, as well as the time of the government employee to make one. We have a machine at work that makes those types of plastic I.D. badges that are similar to a typical CCW permit. Costs about a dollar. Factor in the government employee and let's make it five or ten dollars. I don't factor in the FBI time/effort component as they are Federal and already doing it anyway. So let's say a CCW permit costs about what a drivers license costs. Off the top of my head I don't recall what it is in our state but a rough guess is $20 give or take. Right now in Florida a CCW for a private citizen is $104 for 7 years. If I were to get one it would be a flat $60 as a good part of the fee is waved under certain criteria. The rest simply goes to the state to fund other things rather than the actual cost of the product/service itself.

And really, all a CCW states is that the person is a 'good guy'. We all have the right to keep and bare arms unless that right has been revoked. If a private citizen uses the weapon it will be quickly determined whether or not they were a convicted felon when they are run through the computer. So what does the little piece of plastic in your wallet really do? If someone goes to purchase a firearm they are run through a background check right there at the counter. I can't speak for all states, but in mine I could be standing at the counter, in uniform, with a sidearm and commission in my wallet and I still have a background run if I'm purchasing a weapon. And a bad guy is going to use a weapon to commit a crime whether even without the little piece of plastic because that's what bad guys do. Just tossing these things out for consideration.

 

[Balrog]

I wish it was possible to transfer common sense. Here in Michigan, just a few miles from my house, a woman who had completed the required training and had a valid CPL, decided to shoot at a couple fleeing shoplifters at a Home Depot.

Woman Who Shot at Home Depot Shoplifters Sentenced to 18 mos

Even after she got a suspended sentence for her obvious (my opinion) criminal act, she felt she had done no wrong, and stated she would "never help anyone again." Yeah.

The sad thing about this is that it proves what I say about groups of people: they can all be put on a bell curve and there will always be a few that fall under the left end of the curve. And they are the ones who pee in the pool and ruin it for the rest of us.

Does anyone ever hear anything on the news about the thousands of martial arts instructors that do their jobs daily, teaching their students life skills and self-defense? Nope. What do you hear? That one jackass that fools around with a teenage girl in his school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I agree that the actual physical permit cost something, as well as the time of the government employee to make one. We have a machine at work that makes those types of plastic I.D. badges that are similar to a typical CCW permit. Costs about a dollar. Factor in the government employee and let's make it five or ten dollars. I don't factor in the FBI time/effort component as they are Federal and already doing it anyway. So let's say a CCW permit costs about what a drivers license costs. Off the top of my head I don't recall what it is in our state but a rough guess is $20 give or take. Right now in Florida a CCW for a private citizen is $104 for 7 years. If I were to get one it would be a flat $60 as a good part of the fee is waved under certain criteria. The rest simply goes to the state to fund other things rather than the actual cost of the product/service itself.

And really, all a CCW states is that the person is a 'good guy'. We all have the right to keep and bare arms unless that right has been revoked. If a private citizen uses the weapon it will be quickly determined whether or not they were a convicted felon when they are run through the computer. So what does the little piece of plastic in your wallet really do? If someone goes to purchase a firearm they are run through a background check right there at the counter. I can't speak for all states, but in mine I could be standing at the counter, in uniform, with a sidearm and commission in my wallet and I still have a background run if I'm purchasing a weapon. And a bad guy is going to use a weapon to commit a crime whether even without the little piece of plastic because that's what bad guys do. Just tossing these things out for consideration.

I agree that the cost of the permit should be pretty close to the actual cost of maintaining the permit program. I don't know the process now - it has been years since I bought a gun. Back then, in SC, if you had a CCW, you didn't have to get a new background check, since they did one when you got the permit.

As for what good the permit does, it is helpful for times when there's not a specific reason to do a background check on someone. In NC, for instance, if you have a gun you are expected (by law) to tell the officer during a traffic stop. At that point, if the gun isn't in an appropriate location for someone without a CCW (locked container, or out sitting where it is easily visible), then you're expected to also show your CCW. It saves them having to figure out every time if there's a reason to investigate further - the CCW establishes that there's not.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Reasonable explanation

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Reasonable explanation

I always want to mark comments like that with "agree". It makes me smile to think how that looks to someone who reads the thread later.

"You made a reasonable point."
"Yes. Yes, I did."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Agree

 

[Bill Mattocks]

On the subject of fees for concealed weapons permits...

At one time, various places in the US had a 'poll tax'. That is, you had to pay a fee to vote. The purpose wasn't to raise money. They purpose was to keep low-income citizens (largely poor black people) from voting. Overturned by the Supreme Court, this is no longer legal.

In the 1960s, there was a move to ban 'Saturday Night Specials,' which were purported to be used in the majority of crimes. Inexpensive handguns with barrels 2 inches or less long. It wasn't really about fighting crime. It was about keeping handguns out of the possession of the poor (read black people) again.

So, concealed weapons permits. Designed to raise income for the state? Or designed to keep law-abiding poor (again, often black) people from arming themselves against criminals?

Whenever I hear about a government fee or tax to express a civil right, I always think about what the actual purpose of that fee happens to be.