Took a concealed carry class yesterday...

[drop bear]

Random thought... since you can't constitutionally restrict gun ownership to people who are educated in the proper use of firearms and the legal considerations involved,

...then wouldn't it be a good idea to mandate universal firearm education/training in our schools. If we live in a society where guns are widely available, it makes sense. You know, kinda like requiring a civics course. Or am I just nuts?

Untill you are forcing people who don't want to use guns. To use guns. And some of them will stand on religious reasons

 

[CB Jones]

Untill you are forcing people who don't want to use guns. To use guns. And some of them will stand on religious reasons

What religion bans the use of guns?

 

[drop bear]

What religion bans the use of guns?

Christianity as a major one.

 

[CB Jones]

Christianity as a major one.

Christianity doesn't ban guns.

 

[drop bear]

Christianity doesn't ban guns.

There is more than one sort of Christianity.

Desmond Doss :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church

 

[CB Jones]

There is more than one sort of Christianity.

Desmond Doss :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church

Well the 7th day adventists can sit over to the side and just watch then. Problem solved.

 

[Balrog]

Random thought... since you can't constitutionally restrict gun ownership to people who are educated in the proper use of firearms and the legal considerations involved,

...then wouldn't it be a good idea to mandate universal firearm education/training in our schools. If we live in a society where guns are widely available, it makes sense. You know, kinda like requiring a civics course. Or am I just nuts?

You mean like schools used to do back in the day? What a concept.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Christianity as a major one.

Most of the Christians I know actually own guns. There is an argument to be made that some religions would be against the use of guns for offensive purposes, but that doesn't automatically preclude learning to handle one, nor even learning to safely shoot evil pieces of paper with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well the 7th day adventists can sit over to the side and just watch then. Problem solved.

Or, even, there might be an exception made that allows people to not have to do live-ammunition work under religious objection. They'd still learn safe handling (which doesn't change when the gun is empty, anyway).

 

[geezer]

Untill you are forcing people who don't want to use guns. To use guns. And some of them will stand on religious reasons

In a multi-cultural, multi-religious society you have to allow exemptions for reasons such as religion and conscience. And to be honest, I have no idea how different religions view guns.

For example, Quakers are famously pacifist. Do they object to hunting? And do vegetarian Quakers object to trap and skeet, or marksmanship competitions?

And some Amish groups are well known for eschewing modern technology. How do they feel about semi-automatic firearms? What about laser sights? Or do their beliefs mandate black-powder arms only?

Can Orthodox Jews go shooting on Sabbath? Have to ask Tez. It might be a problem since a lot of matches are scheduled on Saturdays.

And as far as Christians in general ...I know a number of very devout Christians who are really into guns, and a few others who are pacifists. Different denominations I guess.

Anyway, I don't think anybody would ever propose forcing people to do go against their conscience in a public school in this country. I could give you a lot of examples from the right not to say the Pledge of Allegiance to no longer requiring animal dissections in biology classes. In the few schools where that valuable activity is still offered, students may opt out and demonstrate the required anatomical knowledge on a computer program.

Hmmm. Don't like guns, maybe you could opt to show essential knowledge of their function and safe operation on a virtual program? That could work as long as the rest of the kids get to actually shoot ...at least an air rifle, for the love of Heaven.

There, see how nicely I brought myself back on topic.

 

[CB Jones]

Again even if you are strictly against guns...wouldn't hurt to have a basic understanding how to handle one just in case you were forced into that spot.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Whilst I am glad that there are legally-armed citizens about, and I certainly have no problems with guns, let me just say this about that.

When you obtain a concealed permit, your name goes on a government list. And depending on state, so does the serial number of your selected carry weapon.

Sounds a lot like gun registration to me.

No, thanks.

So you've got three choices; don't carry a firearm, carry a firearm without a permit (if the state requires one) or move to a state that doesn't require one.

Like Texas (and other states), Florida doesn't ask for the serial number(s) of firearms. You may be on a list of CCW holders, but you'll be one of millions. And, many states don't always require a permit depending on the situation. For example, Florida permits open carry, without permit, while hunting, fishing, hiking and camping. Or inside one's own place of business or employment if the management dictates that you should.

Now I personally don't think a law abiding citizen should be required to purchase a CCW permit. No problem with a background check or even proving some competent training. But one should not have to pay for a Constitutional right imo. But that is another topic. As far as a CCW, the more law abiding citizens that have one the better. As I near retirement I'll probably get mine again just to augment H.R. 218. And also to avoid the asinine 3-day wait.

Anyway, congrats on the permit Balrog.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

An interesting note to add, as of mid-2016 the total number of CCW holders in the U.S. was over 14.5 million. This does not count states where one does not need a permit to carry openly or concealed. The total number of gun owners was over 80 million. Last year (2016) showed a large % increase in applications with hundreds of thousands during some of the months, each month.

I've been an instructor for our agency for just over 21 years and often teach private citizens both armed and unarmed self-defense.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

One can always point out the odd idiot that misuses a gun. Or guns used by criminals (that would use them regardless of whether or not citizens were armed). But the other side needs to be fairly presented as well (as presented in studies by the CDC, FBI and others):

America ranks #1 worldwide in gun ownership per 100 residents. Nearly double Switzerland which is #3. Yet America ranks #103 worldwide in homicides with 4.8 per 100,000 residents. The FBI found in a study that states that adopted concealed carry laws had a reduction in homicides 8.5%, rapes 5%, agg assault 7% and robberies 3%. Statistically, the armed private citizen is likely to have only a 2% error rate in using a firearm while police have an 11% rate. And more tellingly to that study is that on average, the armed citizen shoots nearly 3X as many bad guys a year as police (1500+ vs. 600+). In 1982, Kennesaw, Georgia passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to just 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.

 

[Steve]

You mean like schools used to do back in the day? What a concept.

I don't think it was ever mandated, and even in the "good old days" was considered extra-curricular. Many public schools have competitive rifle teams, if only through JROTC.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So you've got three choices; don't carry a firearm, carry a firearm without a permit (if the state requires one) or move to a state that doesn't require one.

Correct.

Like Texas (and other states), Florida doesn't ask for the serial number(s) of firearms. You may be on a list of CCW holders, but you'll be one of millions. And, many states don't always require a permit depending on the situation. For example, Florida permits open carry, without permit, while hunting, fishing, hiking and camping. Or inside one's own place of business or employment if the management dictates that you should.

You've given me your reasons why you don't care if you're on a government list of concealed permit holders. That's fine; you don't care; I do. I'm not the only one.

Florida is also fortunate in that it is one of many states that does not publish or permit public access to lists of concealed carry licensees:

Public access to concealed carry lists - Ballotpedia

Take a close look at the list above - these 'Yes' column states all permit the public release of permit holders names, addresses, and phone numbers. Some newspapers have taken the step of actually publishing that information as well as interactive maps to the homes of those people. Sound like fun? Nothing to be concerned about?

Now I personally don't think a law abiding citizen should be required to purchase a CCW permit. No problem with a background check or even proving some competent training. But one should not have to pay for a Constitutional right imo. But that is another topic. As far as a CCW, the more law abiding citizens that have one the better. As I near retirement I'll probably get mine again just to augment H.R. 218. And also to avoid the asinine 3-day wait.

Anyway, congrats on the permit Balrog.

I don't have a problem with your statements regarding the need for law-abiding citizens to even have to get a permit - as you say, that's another topic, and probably one too political for this forum, which is fine.

I also don't have a problem with citizens carrying concealed; with the caveat that I think there are too many stupid people in general, and armed stupid people are more dangerous than the garden-variety booger-eatin' morons that our society is filled with. Witness my post about the imbecile who went through all the training to get her CPL in Michigan and then proceeded to draw and blast away at a pair of fleeing shoplifters, and she STILL did not understand what she had done wrong when she announced at her conviction that she would "never help anyone again." Oh dear lord, the stupid, it hurts.

All I have said is that I prefer not to voluntarily enter myself onto a government list of people who own guns. Generic, specific, or just 'he has a valid CPL, which *probably* means he has a gun'. I'm not interested. I get that you have no problem with it. Cool. But let's not pretend that just because you're OK with it, everyone ought to be, or that because your state doesn't require you to list the pistol you carry, no state does, or that because your state doesn't give out public information on concealed weapons holders, no state does. The facts differ. Your experience is terrific - for you. It does not apply to everyone.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Again even if you are strictly against guns...wouldn't hurt to have a basic understanding how to handle one just in case you were forced into that spot.

I have frequently commented that I think citizens in general should:
1) If they intend to go about armed, get training on how to safely use their weapon.
2) Become proficient in actually using the weapon.
3) For all martial artists as well as those who carry weapons on their person, learn the laws of self-defense and deadly force in the jurisdictions they live and work in. And no, some guy like me on an internet forum does not qualify as getting your learn on. No one on a public forum who gives you bad advice will go to jail and serve your time for you because you believed him and then did something illegal.
4) Everyone - everyone - should consider doing a citizen ride-along with their local PD or SO or whatever their local law enforcement group happens to be. Nearly every one of them has such a program, and it can be an eye-opener. I firmly believe that 90% if not more of the cop-hating BS garbage that mulletheads trot out whenever a cop is in the news for shooting or beating on someone would be better understood if they had just done a ride-along instead of riding the wave of public outrage. The public, as I have also often said, is a pack of booger-eatin' morons.

Most people are dumb as posts. Fact.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You've given me your reasons why you don't care if you're on a government list of concealed permit holders. That's fine; you don't care; I do. I'm not the only one.

That's fine that you take issue with being on a list within your state. I merely pointed out that it is not a universal practice. And too be honest, I'd rather be on a list and be able to carry a firearm for personal protection than not be on the list and not have the firearm. Or, carrying in a fashion that will get you hemmed up if you ever had to use it.

Some newspapers have taken the step of actually publishing that information as well as interactive maps to the homes of those people. Sound like fun? Nothing to be concerned about?

Yes it is something to be concerned about. Unfortunately, the country is filled with politically motivated and/or dishonest journalists who are not responsible with their actions. However, I'm not going to allow those of low reputation to dictate my Constitutional rights.

I also don't have a problem with citizens carrying concealed; with the caveat that I think there are too many stupid people in general, and armed stupid people are more dangerous than the garden-variety booger-eatin' morons that our society is filled with. Witness my post about the imbecile who went through all the training to get her CPL in Michigan and then proceeded to draw and blast away at a pair of fleeing shoplifters, and she STILL did not understand what she had done wrong when she announced at her conviction that she would "never help anyone again." Oh dear lord, the stupid, it hurts.

But this is the exception and not the rule. As I pointed out above, the law abiding citizen is less likely than a police officer to make an error during a shooting despite more bad guys being shot by armed citizens. Stupid people get drunk and drive. Stupid people take medication and then operate heavy machinery. Stupid people do stupid things. But that shouldn't affect the responsible people that responsibly carry.

All I have said is that I prefer not to voluntarily enter myself onto a government list of people who own guns. Generic, specific, or just 'he has a valid CPL, which *probably* means he has a gun'. I'm not interested.

And I'm fine with that. If you don't want to own a firearm (assumption) then that's fine. I served, fought and risked my life (and still do in a different capacity) for you to have the right to make that choice. My issue is with folks that don't have a firearm but want to dictate their view onto others that do want to have a firearm. I served so that an individual has the right to make their choice...not for them to make the choice for me.

But let's not pretend that just because you're OK with it, everyone ought to be, or that because your state doesn't require you to list the pistol you carry, no state does, or that because your state doesn't give out public information on concealed weapons holders, no state does.

No pretending intended or offered. I offered some facts, on some cases specific to a state and some general to the country as a whole. Nothing more or less.

 

[CB Jones]

I have frequently commented that I think citizens in general should:
1) If they intend to go about armed, get training on how to safely use their weapon.
2) Become proficient in actually using the weapon.
3) For all martial artists as well as those who carry weapons on their person, learn the laws of self-defense and deadly force in the jurisdictions they live and work in. And no, some guy like me on an internet forum does not qualify as getting your learn on. No one on a public forum who gives you bad advice will go to jail and serve your time for you because you believed him and then did something illegal.
4) Everyone - everyone - should consider doing a citizen ride-along with their local PD or SO or whatever their local law enforcement group happens to be. Nearly every one of them has such a program, and it can be an eye-opener. I firmly believe that 90% if not more of the cop-hating BS garbage that mulletheads trot out whenever a cop is in the news for shooting or beating on someone would be better understood if they had just done a ride-along instead of riding the wave of public outrage. The public, as I have also often said, is a pack of booger-eatin' morons.

Most people are dumb as posts. Fact.

1. I don't like mandatory training. As a gun carrier I assume the liability of it. If you are gonna require training....then that training ought to share the liability as well.

2. You should be proficient but shouldn't be required....again unless the state and/or instructor is gonna share the liability.

3. Agree

4. Because of liability reasons a lot of agencies have ended ride alongs

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I served, fought and risked my life (and still do in a different capacity) for you to have the right to make that choice.

I served as well.

Shadow box