too short for prison!

[michaeledward]

I see the point you are trying to make, Mike, but I gotta wonder...is any prison anywhere in the world pleasent?

I am not expecting 'pleasant'.

Society is taking an action to restrict this person liberty. Society is taking control of when the detained can eat, sleep, ****, shower, and shave. There is nothing the incarcerated can do without our approval. Ethically, society has a responsibility for the safety of the incarcerated during that time we are restricting them.

I am reminded of Father Geoghan. He died at the hands of a fellow inmate, Joseph Druce. Mr. Geoghan did not receive a sentence of death from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

 

[Drac]

Yeah, that's BS. I can't beleive that a judge would take something like that into account when sentancing for a crime like this. Their is a weird irony to all of this that is pretty disturbing. This man sexually assaults a child and is protected (I'm assuming) because his height would make him a target for the same in prison.

I'm with you this..So he'd be a target to the same suffering that he visited on children??? T.F.B.

 

[Makalakumu]

I am not expecting 'pleasant'.

Society is taking an action to restrict this person liberty. Society is taking control of when the detained can eat, sleep, ****, shower, and shave. There is nothing the incarcerated can do without our approval. Ethically, society has a responsibility for the safety of the incarcerated during that time we are restricting them.

I am reminded of Father Geoghan. He died at the hands of a fellow inmate, Joseph Druce. Mr. Geoghan did not receive a sentence of death from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

I'm not even sure "safe" is a reasonable expectation. My uncle works in Oak Park Heights maximum security prison and they do some innovating and revolutionary things to reform inmates. This prison was featured in a Discovery Channel special as a model for the entire country.

For many their programming is successful, but for some, they are just too violent or disturbed or whatever and they will find ways to hurt other people no matter how you sit their and watch them. My uncle says that these people dream about this stuff and plan it for months, taking small steps toward performing their act and then BAM!

With these folks, I suppose we could stop this by throwing them in a hole and throwing away the key, but that is against the law. So, it becomes a tradeoff...the chronic violent offenders rights or the safety of the other inmates. It's like one of those mobius loops that you can't escape.

I think that if our prison system had less people in it, they would be safer more functional institutions...and they probably would reform more people. To do that, however, we are going to need better social programming in this country, free education, health care, more housing, etc...

 

[modarnis]

I am not expecting 'pleasant'.

Society is taking an action to restrict this person liberty. Society is taking control of when the detained can eat, sleep, ****, shower, and shave. There is nothing the incarcerated can do without our approval. Ethically, society has a responsibility for the safety of the incarcerated during that time we are restricting them.

I am reminded of Father Geoghan. He died at the hands of a fellow inmate, Joseph Druce. Mr. Geoghan did not receive a sentence of death from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

In an abstract sense society meets or exceeds those ethical obligations. We house, feed, cloth, and provide medical care for incarcerated persons. Here in Connecticut (along with Louisiana where I have first hand knowledge) when an accused is sent from court to prison, the mittimus (document or writ that authorizes their transport) reflects any special concerns the court or defendant's attorney may have. These include mental health care, medical treatment, prescribed medications, suicide watch, or segregation by age.

In a practical sense, without housing all convicted criminals in supermax style institutions with 23 hour a day lockdowns, with the only contact with other inmates through a kennel type dog run, assuring the absolute safety of a prison population is virtually impossible.

In an equally persuasive ethical analysis, the welfare and needs of a majority of inmates seems to prevail. Segregation type lockdown causes significant mental health issues and is a huge financial burden on taxpayers.

Society also has an ethical interest in protecting the majority of citizens from the misdeeds of others. Actions have consequences. A simple way to avoid prison is to not commit serious crimes.

 

[Drac]

My uncle says that these people dream about this stuff and plan it for months, taking small steps toward performing their act and then BAM!

Your Uncle is correct...At a police conference a few years ago we saw a video taken off a surveilence camera in a prison yard of 2 inmates practice ways to defeat being handcuffed from every position imaginable...

 

[Makalakumu]

Your Uncle is correct...At a police conference a few years ago we saw a video taken off a surveilence camera in a prison yard of 2 inmates practice ways to defeat being handcuffed from every position imaginable...

Jeez, its like a kata list...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not expecting 'pleasant'.

Society is taking an action to restrict this person liberty.

And why did society restrict the person in prisons liberty? Was it because they were selling ice crème from an ice crème truck? No. Although it could be because they took a gun out and stole money from an ice crème truck.

IF a person can be rehabilitated, great I am all for it. However Child molesters, at least so far, have never been successfully rehabilitated. And speaking as a parent in the case of a child molester... hangins to good for him. So I am not exactly concerned about his prison stay being pleasant.

Society is taking control of when the detained can eat, sleep, ****, shower, and shave. There is nothing the incarcerated can do without our approval. Ethically, society has a responsibility for the safety of the incarcerated during that time we are restricting them.

They gave up many of the rights most free people have when they committed the crime that got them placed in prison.

Many of the inmates in prison eat better and are healthier in prison than out of prison. Prison is a violent place because it is full of violent people. TO be honest I do not feel that any prison should be comfortable.

Also in prisons there are areas that can separate prisoners from the general population. But that sometimes doesn't happen.

I am reminded of Father Geoghan. He died at the hands of a fellow inmate, Joseph Druce. Mr. Geoghan did not receive a sentence of death from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

I am reminded of Jeffery Damer that was killed in prison... oh well.


The state in which I live has some wonderful programs for rehabilitation for people who drive drunk, neglect their children, drug offenders, etc and these programs are fairly successful. Which is surprising since the majority of prison rehabilitation is very successful in prison but once the person leave prison they tend to revert. And there are also people that are, for lack of a better word, broken. They cannot be rehabilitated. A person that molests a child, so far, has proven to be one of those.

Also the psychological factors involved with some (not all) child molesters come in to play here. Most unfortunately they tend to be victims of molestation themselves and the sexual development (mentally not physically) tends to stop right around the age they were molested. And they find themselves attracted to that same age as themselves as they develop physically. If they were given counseling at the time or close to the time of the molestation they have a chance. However once they are an adult, rehabilitation has so far proven to be unsuccessful.

And before the onslaught of responses to this, not all children that are victims of molestation grow up to be child molesters. But they are left with some pretty hefty psychological scars.

So a judge said prison is too violent a place for him so probation it is. Here’s another fact for you. It is HIGHLY likely he will molest another child. So if that happens then what.... Well he is still to short for prison so more probation.

 

[michaeledward]

They gave up many of the rights most free people have when they committed the crime that got them placed in prison.

A convicted person did not give up the rights of most free people. Society takes away those rights. There is nothing voluntary about it from the convicted persons point of view.

Many of the inmates in prison eat better and are healthier in prison than out of prison.

Why is this? Why do we as a society feed prisoners?

So a judge said prison is too violent a place for him so probation it is. Here’s another fact for you. It is HIGHLY likely he will molest another child. So if that happens then what.... Well he is still to short for prison so more probation.

Here is the conflict. Society has an obligation to keep itself safe. And Society has an obligation to supervise those whom we detain. If the judge feels it is HIGHLY likely he will be killed in prison, what recourse does he have available?

I don't know the answer. I wish I did. Knowing we spend Billions of dollars every year, knowing there are more than half a million full time employees doing there best in detention facilities around the country, and knowing these costs and tasks are undertaken at our behest, it saddens me that if is seemingly so ineffective.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/BigBucks_BigHouse_LA.html

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

......Certainly the inner workings of the prison system are outside a judge's scope of knowledge or authority........

You don't really believe this do you?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A convicted person did not give up the rights of most
free people. Society takes away those rights. There is nothing voluntary
about it from the convicted persons point of view.

Why was it taken away? Did they believe that there were no
consequences for committing a crime? They are in prison and I do not feel
that prison and free to run in society should be the same thing.

Particularly for a child molester.

Why is this? Why do we as a society feed
prisoners?

I could be wrong here, but I am just going to hazard a guess and say so they don't starve and people on the outside of prisons do not complain about the cruel and unusual treatment that is being forced upon prisoners that are forced to live in such a dangerous environment after having there rights forcibly taken away.

Other countries have other ideas. China had a prison where they put prisoners that had no physical wall. The prisoners were put there, given land to farm and animals as well. They were told farm and live don’t farm and die. And if we see you anywhere outside of this prison we will shoot you. The prison was in the Gobi.

Not a way I would advocate, but it worked well for them at the time.

Here is the conflict. Society has an obligation to
keep itself safe. And Society has an obligation to supervise those whom we
detain. If the judge feels it is HIGHLY likely he will be killed in
prison, what recourse does he have available?

I don't know the answer. I wish I did. Knowing we spend Billions of
dollars every year, knowing there are more than half a million full time
employees doing there best in detention facilities around the country, and
knowing these costs and tasks are undertaken at our behest, it saddens me
that if is seemingly so ineffective.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/BigBucks_BigHouse_LA.html

It is expensive true, and it tends to be unsuccessful in rehabilitation as well. But it is what we currently have and there are some looking for a better way. And in some states these ways have been implemented and are working. But these are not to keep child molesters out of prison. They are ways to help non-violent criminals not Child molesters.

I still maintain that releasing a child molester back into public is just plain wrong. So prison is dangerous, I do not care. Now that area in which this Child molester lives is considerably more dangerous for the children that this child molester victimizes.

So in my opinion the judge should be kicked of the bench and dangerous or not the Child molester should be thrown in jail.

 

[modarnis]

You don't really believe this do you?

Maybe you should reread the post, specifically the sentence that follows and put it in its appropriate context

 

[pstarr]

I live just outside Omaha. I think we'd better arm ourselves against the midgets who are apparently free to do anything....!

 

[Drac]

Jeez, its like a kata list...

And then some..An LAPD officer arrested a "gang banger" a few years back and in his possession was a guide to self defense against police officers that was written by them for for them.I t featured hand drawn illustrations where the LEO's were pictured as Nazis .Some of the moves could be real effective against an LEO who makes the fatal mistake of under estimating them...

 

[hapki68]

Don't you just love prison movies like "Caged Heat" and "Midnight Express"?

Sorry.. I've been sniffing glue.

 

[DavidCC]

as a citizen of Nebraska I don't like it one bit. But here are some facts to add to the discussion:

the judge is a woman. (not relevant but some posts above used the masculine pronoun)

the laws in Nebraska allowed this decision. the judge did not act outside the law.

according to some reports I read, the judge studied the psych eval and did not believe this person was a habitual predator.



anyone under 5'2" that comes into my neighborhood will be watched with suspicion :uhohh:

If we build a midget prison, will it be constitutional to hire only guards over 6'6"?

-David

 

[Xue Sheng]

as a citizen of Nebraska I don't like it one bit. But here are some facts to add to the discussion:

the judge is a woman. (not relevant but some posts above used the masculine pronoun)

the laws in Nebraska allowed this decision. the judge did not act outside the law.

according to some reports I read, the judge studied the psych eval and did not believe this person was a habitual predator.



anyone under 5'2" that comes into my neighborhood will be watched with suspicion :uhohh:

If we build a midget prison, will it be constitutional to hire only guards over 6'6"?

-David

Damn...

Not outside the laws of Nebraska...wow!...

For once I am glad I live in NY.

Can they send a person over 7' tall to prison for life for a parking ticket?

 

[matt.m]

Wow, just wow. I have truly seen it all now.:shrug:

 

[tradrockrat]

I brought this article up a while ago (when it happened) on another site. I'm amazed at the difference of overall opinions expressed between the two sites. Now, obviously the sites are geared toward different people - the other is a biker site - but wow.

This sentence is outrageous to me. I don't give a damn for his safety in prison and I catagorically deny any of what Michaeledward said to be true. I don't feel society owes ANYTHING to a predator who is willing to strip others of their very freedoms and societal rights. By taking the actions he has, this pedophile has placed himself outside of society, therefore he deserves none of societies protections.

Obviously, I am on the opposite end of the "PC" spectrum from you, Michaeledward, so I'll just agree to disagree with you rather than pointlessly debate (I'm relatively sure we won't change each others minds about this... )

Worrying about his safety is missing the forrest for the trees. He doesn't care for others safety, and he is guilty of one of the most heineous crimes imaginable - right up there with murder. Study the pedophile and you'll have trouble sleeping at night. They're freaks beyond rahab and they will do it agian and again. This judge literally insured that another child will be molested. I know there was a belief that he wouldn't do this again. They are wrong. This might have been his first, but sure won't be his last - especially now!

I guess what shocks me the most is that there are a lot of teachers of children on this site. I expected a bit more vehemence. Guess I'm kind of silly about this huh?

Admittedly, I'm pretty over the top about childrens rights cause I've worked with sexual abuse victims and I've seen the reality of it, but my beliefs on the treatment of criminals has always been more about punishment than rehab. I'm a staunch believer in capitol punishment, and I'm all for a revamping of our penal system to streamline the process.

I'd love to see prisons with 8x8 cells of concrete with bedding, toilet and nothing else. I'd also love to see prisons required to be self sufficient - to pay for themselves.

JMHO.

 

[DavidCC]

Damn...

Not outside the laws of Nebraska...wow!...

For once I am glad I live in NY.

Can they send a person over 7' tall to prison for life for a parking ticket?

Don't be so sure the same decision could not have been made in any other state. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying, I don't think there is anything special about our laws here...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Don't be so sure the same decision could not have been made in any other state. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying, I don't think there is anything special about our laws here...

I agree, and I am not attacking Nebraska.

I could be wrong here, but I do not believe a judge in NYS has the right to change a sentence because he or she feels a convicted felon is in danger in prison. If it's a felony it is a least greater than 1 year of time in prison and there are different levels of felony an I believe Child molestation is an A Felony and I do not think a judge can say it's to dangerous in prison for you so I give you probation instead. They have facilities within prisons in NYS to keep certain types of criminals out of population. But it has been a while since I have had to deal with NYS law so as I said I could be wrong.