Is 10 yrs. Too Much?

[MJS]

I am not angry at you, just not agreeing with you, nor is it likely that I will on this issue. And I have been in SOOOOO Many of these types of “conversations” I have had enough of them and it never ceases to amaze me the number of “What ifs” and excuses people come up with.

And in NY a sex act committed with a minor is Statutory Rape that is why I am using the terminology. Consent is not an issue because a minor cannot legally give consent for sex acts.

And no matter your opinion or feelings on a 17 year old excepting or turning down any offered sex act, in NY, it does not matter the 17 year old is, if caught, going to be arrested and charged with "statutory rape" Culpable mental state is not an issue the fact that the minor may have done a striptease in front of him and offered him all sorts of sex acts does not matter, he WILL end up being charged with statutory rape. And the female WILL be put through all sorts of painful, embarrassing and rather invasive tests. Nor does in matter if there were 2 , 3 or 12 females, if they were minors all that means is 2, 3 or 12 charges of statutory rape, hence the possible reason for 10 years.

By the way same goes for a 17 year old female that goes after a 15 year old male in NYS. And the age of the minor (younger) increases the number of years you are going to get in prison.

My point is always based on the laws of NYS and any amount of reasoning, excuses, outrage, scenarios, or What if situation that
you or anyone else comes up with are not justification for said statutory rape in NYS.

It kind of like this, "What if the titanic didn't hit the Iceberg?"

BUT IT DID!!!! so what's your point?

You, I or 50 million other people may not like what happened in the case stated but if that is the law that is the law and the kid should have taken the plea. And complaining to others or posting on a web page for all to see may make one feel like they are dong something but they aren’t. You don’t like it ok there are ways in the US to legally go about trying to change things.

Now here’s an idea if this bothers you or anyone else so much, write your congressman, if he/she gets enough letters maybe something will change, doubtful though, she/he wants to be re-elected and taking a stand that can later be used by ones opponent as showing he/she support sex with minors is not a good political move.

OK then mount a protest get a bunch of people together an get the necessary permits (you need them in NY or you will get arrested) and go protest at the state capital to get this kids sentence reduced (But might I suggest you do it without reverend Al if you want to be taken even remotely seriously). But then again you are back at someone somewhere will say this group and/or any of the state officials that agree think sex with minors is ok and all though it may catch the eye of a few local news stations it would be political suicide for the state officials.

Well, I've never had any issues with you in the past, so no sense in starting now. As for agreeing/not agreeing, thats fine too.

Im not advocating rape. I'm not condoning sexual activity between kids. Nothing irks me more, than to see a 15 yo with a child. I for one, am not crazy about supporting someone elses mistake. But, thats not the thread. Fact is, sex happens. Unless we watch kids 24/7/365 we can't possibly know everything they do.

Was this situation wrong? Yes. My point and I think one thats being misunderstood, is that I'm saying, this 17yo male went to jail. Why? For sexual contact with a minor. Why did nothing happen to the female? She is a minor too, and participated just as much as he did. I dont care who initiated the act, the fact is, both parties are guilty. Do you think if I was in a car with 3 people and fell asleep, and while I was sleeping, they rob a store. The cops pull us over, I wake up and wonder what the hell is going on. Do you honestly think the cop is going to buy the story I was sleeping?? Of course not, so why is the female getting off without any jail time?

The article states its consensual, but do we know that? Were any of us there? No on both accounts so we can speculate 'til we're blue in the face. Reading that article, I did not once get the impression is was a forced act. There was no mention of that. I doubt that either of those kids were thinking about laws, consequences, jail or anything, except what they were doing.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, I've never had any issues with you in the past, so no sense in starting now. As for agreeing/not agreeing, thats fine too.

Im not advocating rape. I'm not condoning sexual activity between kids. Nothing irks me more, than to see a 15 yo with a child. I for one, am not crazy about supporting someone elses mistake. But, thats not the thread. Fact is, sex happens. Unless we watch kids 24/7/365 we can't possibly know everything they do.

Was this situation wrong? Yes. My point and I think one thats being misunderstood, is that I'm saying, this 17yo male went to jail. Why? For sexual contact with a minor. Why did nothing happen to the female? She is a minor too, and participated just as much as he did. I dont care who initiated the act, the fact is, both parties are guilty. Do you think if I was in a car with 3 people and fell asleep, and while I was sleeping, they rob a store. The cops pull us over, I wake up and wonder what the hell is going on. Do you honestly think the cop is going to buy the story I was sleeping?? Of course not, so why is the female getting off without any jail time?

The article states its consensual, but do we know that? Were any of us there? No on both accounts so we can speculate 'til we're blue in the face. Reading that article, I did not once get the impression is was a forced act. There was no mention of that. I doubt that either of those kids were thinking about laws, consequences, jail or anything, except what they were doing.

Mike

Actually I am not misinterpreting what you are saying, it may be that I am not being clear in response and I am being overly verbose which I am from time to time and more so when I am suffering from sleep deprivation, which you would have no way of knowing is the case at the moment.

In NY, a minor is 15 years old therefore it does not matter if said minor gave consent or initiated the act they are a minor and are not consider responsible for their actions in such cases and cannot legally consent to sex. Therefore they are guilty of nothing and therefore considered the victim and will not be charged. This is why culpable mental state is not an issue when it comes to the person that is considered the adult. An adult is considered responsible for their action and as glib as this may sound "they should know better."

It may not be fare in all cases but it is the law.

As to the car, you go to jail too. Interesting point, in Massachusetts the DRIVER is responsible for EVERYTHING that goes on in his car. If you are the driver and see a hitchhiker and stop and pick them up and later get pulled over and the police find drugs on the passenger the driver is getting charged. And this one is even better, if you are underage in MA (not old enough to drink) and you give a person who is not your parent or legal guardian but is old enough to drink a ride to the package store (Liquor store for all you Non MA people) and later get pulled over by the police and the alcohol is in the car and unopened the passenger that bought the alcohol, even though no one is drinking, will get charged with absolutely nothing, however the driver that is not old enough to drink will get arrested and charged with minor transporting and end up in court.

 

[Andrew Green]

And if you let this case go because of this and IT WILL come back to haunt you when some kid rapes a girl and intimidates the hell out of her with threats of violence and gets her to say she said yes and he gets a light sentence or NO sentence and goes off and does it again. And before ANYONE comes back and says OH that won’t happen, BELIEVE ME it will. Just look at just about EVERY rape defense going.

Personally I think using the same term "Rape" to describe a consensual act between two teens and a violent act against someone is a insult to all the people that really have been through rape.

Stat rape is not agreed upon in any way. Ages vary from country to country, and in your case state to state. Real Rape is pretty much universally seen as a horrible crime. A 15 & 17 year old having sex is seen as completely natural as often as it is seen as a crime.

But in terms of it coming back... How about the flip side. Some 15 year old girl decides she has a grudge against some guy for whatever reason. Decides to ruin his life, initiates, pushes for it, everything and he agrees. She then calls the cops and destroys his life.

Strictly following the letter of the law and ignoring the purpose of the law is IMO, just as dangerous and judges should be free to make decissions on a case by case in this sort of situation.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

The other part of this story is that after the 17 year old was convicted of a felony (sex with the 15 year old), but later, the laws were changed so it is a misdemenour, so many feel that his sentence should be downgraded to reflect the new laws.

AoG

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally I think using the same term "Rape" to describe a consensual act between two teens and a violent act against someone is a insult to all the people that really have been through rape.

Stat rape is not agreed upon in any way. Ages vary from country to country, and in your case state to state. Real Rape is pretty much universally seen as a horrible crime. A 15 & 17 year old having sex is seen as completely natural as often as it is seen as a crime.

But in terms of it coming back... How about the flip side. Some 15 year old girl decides she has a grudge against some guy for whatever reason. Decides to ruin his life, initiates, pushes for it, everything and he agrees. She then calls the cops and destroys his life.

Strictly following the letter of the law and ignoring the purpose of the law is IMO, just as dangerous and judges should be free to make decissions on a case by case in this sort of situation.

Before you attack the terminology you may want to read the rest of my posts.

Also as I stated, I have heard ALL of the scenarios and "what if" situation you can come up with and they all amount to the same thing (see titanic reference). Also other countries are not a good argument if the case in the US. If that is your argument than it is likely in parts of China and South America he may have been put to death, so other countries are not exactly a good example. The flip side, ok what if the girl has a puppy and the guy likes cats.... IT MEANS NOTHING, this is NOT what happened here. If you do not like the law that is your prerogative, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (See my other posts on that). You don't think following the law is right then again DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (again see my previous posts)

And a 15 year old FORCED to have sex with a 17 years old is rape. A 15 year old that has sex with a 17 year old is (please note this) "in NYS" called statutory rape.

I am trying REAL REAL hard not to get angry on this topic, I have been in heated discussions on MT before on this and I really do not wish to repeat them. I think my next response may be a link to the last one so it can be read and applied to this.

And here’s a bit of info, Judges do have some leeway in making decisions.

OK Here's one and I blame the press. It is however not a minor in a sex act. A Doctor had a patient and the patient fell in love with the doctor and the doctor being married with kids and faithful told the patient he was not interested. She screamed rape, he stuck to his guns... that is until the press got involved and printed his name and address in the paper. There were protests outside of his house, calls for his suspension from practicing medicine and a suspension, his family being put though Hell and he hung himself in his garage. This of course was taken as an omission of guilt, but afterwards the patient confessed and admitted it was all a lie. No apologies from the press no big story in the paper no public outrage or posts on web pages just a forgotten dead MD and his destroyed family. And She did not get charged with a thing, why yo may ask? because you see, she got herself listed as incompetent by another MD and therefore not responsible for her actions.

OR how about reverend Al and Tawana and the guy that hung himself there and no one remembers his name and NO one apologized for the LIE that was Tawana's claim of rape either. As a matter of fact it made the dear reverend famous.

Or then there is the State Level LEO that had sex with a 15 year old the he claimed he believed was 18...even though she was a friend of his 15 year old daughter and they went to the same school.

Yup the DA messed that case up and he got off, but good thing he had to stand a state level tribunal after that and lost his job. Every single LEO I knew at the time said the same thing. "He did it" and "he is guilty" But the letter of the law was followed and they could not get a conviction. And she (the 15 year old) came on to him and offered him sex. But you see he is an adult and should no better and have some restraint and a father of a 15 year old having sex with a 15 year old is just BIT to CREEPY for me and just plain WRONG.

But he got away with it and she did consent after all so I guess that is ok right??? Wrong, Nope, Not a chance in hell.

He did loose his job and family but he got away with statutory rape in a state he was sworn to protect form such things, but she consented, offered actually, so I guess that is ok with you then.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

Yeah, Ten years! Terrible.

 

[jks9199]

Judges don't always have leeway. In many cases, the legislatures have responded to what they (or their constituents) feel to be overly lenient sentences by passing various forms of mandated sentencing laws. In other cases, specific sentencing guidelines and formulas have been set up to limit judicial discretion, and try to ensure that sentences for similar offenses are not grossly disparate. In any case, the judge is often bound within the sentencing range for an offense (for example, 1-5 years), and may not be able to suspend all of the sentence.

Changes in laws typically don't affect those convicted of an offense prior to the change; that's the definition of an ex post facto law, and they are prohibited by the US Constitution. Generally, it's in the convict's best interests; they can't be punished more harshly or for doing something that wasn't illegal at the time they did it. In relatively rare cases, like this one, it would benefit the convict.

Based on a little research, it appears that Genarlow Wilson is still in prison, as the government is appealing an order to release him. The case is winding it's slow way through the legal system; a petition for certiorari has apparently been filed with the Georgia Supreme Court. Depending on the outcome there, my guess is that the next step would be to move to the federal system on an argument that Wilson's punishment violates the US Bill of Rights prohibition against cruel or unusual punishment.

Personally, as I've said, I disagree with the 10 year sentence (actually 11; the judge could only suspend 1 year, according to the petition for certiorari), but not the conviction. I personally feel that 17 year olds should be held accountable for their actions; I feel that accountability should increase gradually instead of a "magical transformation" on someone's 18th birthday. The adult and juvenile systems are quite different, even in today's climate of more harsh punishment for many juvenile offenses.

And -- I can't help but place some blame on the parents and even the hotel staff. I can't understand why parents assist or hotels permit kids to obtain rooms for parties... It's rare that anything good comes of this sort of hotel rental for kids.

 

[CoryKS]

Dude, next time go to North Carolina.

 

[shesulsa]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

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MT Assist. Administrator

 

[Xue Sheng]

Questions and I'm done

How many in this discussion are parents?

How many have daughters?

Me, yes to both.

Next, I have noticed something here, I have on at least 2 occasions said that in my state that if an adult female has sex with a minor male the female will get charged and do jail time and there has been no acknowledgement of that at all.

And since some like hypothetical situations (actually it is not hypothetical it happened)

This mean if a female 18 or older is propositioned by a male, say 15, and excepts the proposition she will get charged and he will not, He is a minor that is not considered responsible for his actions....

so indignation anyone???

Or is it different if the woman gets charged and the boy does not?

 

[Andrew Green]

And in NY a sex act committed with a minor is Statutory Rape that is why I am using the terminology. Consent is not an issue because a minor cannot legally give consent for sex acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

"If the victim is under 15 and the perpetrator is at least 18, this constitutes a 2nd degree sexual offense. However, if the defendant is less than 4 years older than the victim, this may constitute an affirmative defense. Affirmative defenses are those in which the defendant introduces evidence which negates criminal liability."

The way I read that, in New York he would have been ok, no laws broken.

In fact, in a good number of states he would have been ok. Georgia has even revised there laws to make it a misdemeanor now rather then a felony, but that was after he was convicted.

Which is basically my point, no one seems to agree on what statutory rape is. Rape on the other hand pretty much everyone agrees on what it is. But with Stat rape crossing a border, even a state border, can make a felony into a legal activity.

Now here’s an idea if this bothers you or anyone else so much, write your congressman, if he/she gets enough letters maybe something will change, doubtful though, she/he wants to be re-elected and taking a stand that can later be used by ones opponent as showing he/she support sex with minors is not a good political move.

Well, Age of consent where I am is 14. There is a bill up to raise it to 16, allowing for a close in age exception allowing 14 / 15 year olds to consent, providing there is no more then 5 years between them.

It does however become 18 if the older person is in a position of authority, such as a teacher.

I'm ok with either law.

OK then mount a protest get a bunch of people together an get the necessary permits (you need them in NY or you will get arrested) and go protest at the state capital

Really? Wow, but thats another topic... yikes... what happened to freedom of speech?

 

[Touch Of Death]

If you want to eliminate the behavior the sentence is right on; however, I doubt it would be fairly applied across the boared; so, yes the sentence is too harsh.
sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really? Wow, but thats another topic... yikes... what happened to freedom of speech?

Oh please... well at least you read some of what I preveiously posted, picked sections to respond to to support your point and forgot the rest but that I guess is to be expected... see ya.

With that bye, I'm out of this and since my last posted questions appear to be unanswered, I feel they have been answered and I can see, at least were Andrew is coming from.

Not going to waste time and energy here or do I wish to get this post locked based on what will become my outrage, enjoy your indignation.

I would be REALLY interested to see if there was even a post on this issue had the sexes of the people involved were switched.But again asince that part was apparently missed.... 3 times... Later

 

[Touch Of Death]

Bye, I'm out of this and since no one answered my last posted questions, I feel they have been answered.

Not going to waste time and energy here or do I wish to get this post locked based on what will become my outrage, enjoy your indignation.

I would be REALLY interested to see if there was even a post on this issue had the sexes of the people involved were switched.

Later

I didn't read your post but my post just addressed it.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Questions and I'm done

How many in this discussion are parents?

How many have daughters?

Me, yes to both.

Married with no kids.

Next, I have noticed something here, I have on at least 2 occasions said that in my state that if an adult female has sex with a minor male the female will get charged and do jail time and there has been no acknowledgement of that at all.

And since some like hypothetical situations (actually it is not hypothetical it happened)

This mean if a female 18 or older is propositioned by a male, say 15, and excepts the proposition she will get charged and he will not, He is a minor that is not considered responsible for his actions....

so indignation anyone???

Or is it different if the woman gets charged and the boy does not?

Sorry, but I have to address a few things.

1) There was apparently 2 cases, one involving oral sex between a 15 and 17yo and another involving a rape in a hotel. The link I posted was to discuss the oral sex between the 17yo male and 15 yo girl.

2) While the laws vary from state to state, IMO, the only law that we need to focus on is Ga.

3) Intercourse and oral sex are two different things.

4) Nobody is asking or telling you to go. That is your choice. I do find it interesting though, when people say that its a touchy subject, yet they still subject themselves to posting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, but I have to address a few things.

1) There was apparently 2 cases, one involving oral sex between a 15 and 17yo and another involving a rape in a hotel. The link I posted was to discuss the oral sex between the 17yo male and 15 yo girl.

2) While the laws vary from state to state, IMO, the only law that we need to focus on is Ga.

3) Intercourse and oral sex are two different things.

4) Nobody is asking or telling you to go. That is your choice. I do find it interesting though, when people say that its a touchy subject, yet they still subject themselves to posting.

Nice jab at someone you had no problems with and I know which case you are talking about I just wish you would stop trying to make it look like I didn't, try reading my previous post to you and you will see that.

Also it is interesting that you now are no longer into scenarios and apparently do not want to address mine. Also interesting selective definitions you got there. And now we have georgraphical rules to follow when I believe it was Andrew threw in other countires and you did not seem to have a problem with that.

Also I did not ask permission to leave nor did I feel I was told to go.

As for posting when it is touchy, on occasion it is worth it when people are trying say sex with minors is ok and when they apparently would not care if it were a young male and older female. Interesting double standard there too.

Sorry I can't agree here guys and think sex with a minor consensual or not is wrong and believe oral sex is sex.... could be why the word sex is generally put with it.

Alrighty then you want to post your upset at the kid getting 10 years for it go ahead I said it before, actually just before your little jab, I was done and I am. Jab away if you will.

I await the inevitable yet predictable response from the others. And I will let then you and the rest give themselves collective pats on the back because they told me off and I stopped posting.

Truth be known, you have all made up your mind and so have I and we will never agree here and that says a lot to me.

Have a nice day

 

[Andrew Green]

I would be REALLY interested to see if there was even a post on this issue had the sexes of the people involved were switched.But again asince that part was apparently missed.... 3 times... Later

Well... Here's a even wackier case: http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_210004013.html

My belief would be that had the sexes been reversed, chances are there would have been no conviction.

 

[MJS]

OK, my last post on the topic… I hope. I can feel my blood pressure rising here already.

I am trying REAL REAL hard not to get angry on this topic,

Questions and I'm done



With that bye, I'm out of this

Nice jab at someone you had no problems with and I know which case you are talking about I just wish you would stop trying to make it look like I didn't, try reading my previous post to you and you will see that.

No jab intended. I feel that I've been on the topic.

Also it is interesting that you now are no longer into scenarios and apparently do not want to address mine. Also interesting selective definitions you got there. And now we have georgraphical rules to follow when I believe it was Andrew threw in other countires and you did not seem to have a problem with that.

We can talk about all the laws in all 50 states, but the only one that matters, is the one in the state where the sex act took place.

Also I did not ask permission to leave nor did I feel I was told to go.

As for posting when it is touchy, on occasion it is worth it when people are trying say sex with minors is ok and when they apparently would not care if it were a young male and older female. Interesting double standard there too.

Sorry I can't agree here guys and think sex with a minor consensual or not is wrong and believe oral sex is sex.... could be why the word sex is generally put with it.

Alrighty then you want to post your upset at the kid getting 10 years for it go ahead I said it before, actually just before your little jab, I was done and I am. Jab away if you will.

I await the inevitable yet predictable response from the others. And I will let then you and the rest give themselves collective pats on the back because they told me off and I stopped posting.

Truth be known, you have all made up your mind and so have I and we will never agree here and that says a lot to me.

Have a nice day

See above where I posted quotes from all of your posts where you said you were done and I see you're still at it. You are seriously getting confused, angry and putting words in my mouth. First, I was not questioning the 10yr sentence. I'm asking why the female did not get any jail time. Second, whether or not we think its consensual, the fact is, it happend and it happens all the time. I never said it was ok, that was you twisting my posts around to your needs. The Ga. law was broke and I'm sure it will continue to be. How can it be enforced unless someone complains about it. This is my point...its apparently against that states law, even though the female and male agreed to it, so both should be punished for breaking the law.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

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[Ping898]

Why is it that most people only become aware of these stories when Reverend Sharpton is involved.

This story is old. And many in the blogging community have been discussing it for months.

The sentence was voided almost a month ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case.ap/index.html



EDIT - On another note, I believe the young lady also serviced some other older young men at the party. Those young men, if I recall correctly, agreed to plea bargain arrangements and will now live the rest of their lives as sex offenders. One wonders at the fairness of that. - END EDIT

The sentense was voided, but the kid is still in jail cause the attourney general (I think) or some other state laywer is appealing the ruling stating that the law the judge used to void the sentence can not be appliied retroactively.