To stick or not to stick

[geezer]

...or look at it and die laughing. God I'm hopeless...

 

[Danny T]

Know of quite a few who are good at chi sao...nah, they are Very Good at chi sao.
Unfortunately for them their excellent chi sao skills having not transferred to their ability to fight.
Know quite a few who are good fighters...nah, they are Very Good fighters but their chi sao skills are poor.

 

[Eric_H]

Could you elaborate? I've seen numerous kung fu schools that don't spar, they do chi sao instead. I think this approach produces students that don't know how to spar and are horrible at chi sao. They lack sensitivity, thus they look stiff and rigid. Just because a drill has combative elements or develops a fighting skill doesn't mean it's suppose to be sparring itself.

Sure! I don't know what you've seen, so I can't speak to that. I can see where if you're playing tag it builds bad habits (see point-fighting karate).

Chi Sao, at least as we do it in the line I study now, is all about reflex under the rules of the system. You can either force the opponent to stick to you, stick to him to neutralize what he's doing or jump the circuit and exit into free fighting technique. We teach sparring and chi sao as two halves of the same coin, you can't have one without the other.

Sensitivity is the byproduct of training, not the end goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Very Good fighters but their chi sao skills are poor.

When I just learned the WC system, I used the WC Tan Shou to "bounce" my opponent's punch arm away, I then used the same arm to punch on his face. I combined the block and punch by using the same arm.

IMO, if you can sense your opponent's intention, your opponent can sense your intention too. As soon as you have sensed your opponent's intention through your bridge, you destroy the bridge, enter, and finish your job.

 

[Anarax]

I don't know what you've seen, so I can't speak to that.

I've studied Kung Fu under 3 different instructors each had their own version of Chi Sao. Ironically the best Chi Sao training I've received is from Kali, my instructor taught us a Filipino variant of it, he also had the best sensitivity.

I can see where if you're playing tag it builds bad habits

I agree, that's why I said I think when you focus on the strike it detracts from the purpose of the drill.

Chi Sao, at least as we do it in the line I study now, is all about reflex under the rules of the system.

Sensitivity and reflexes go hand in hand. Chi Sao builds sensitivity thus you can react to your opponent because you sense through the connection where he will go and where you should go.

jump the circuit and exit into free fighting technique.

This is where I disagree. Good training comes from compartmentalizing your training. If I'm working on take down defense, them I'm only working on take down defense. If my training partner(not opponent) manages to take me down then we reset and we start again. What I don't do is revert to sparring when he manages to get his under hooks in and start blasting him. Same thing applies to a stick blocking drill, I'm not going to revert to sparring because my training partner gets a few strikes in. I'm doing the drill to improve my blocks, when I switch to something else mid drill to compensate for my lack of skill in that one area then I'm no longer doing the drill. This also prevents me from building confidence in my technique and teaches me not to rely on them.

We teach sparring and chi sao as two halves of the same coin, you can't have one without the other.

I said schools that teach chi sao instead of sparring is a problem. I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with that or not in you statement.

Sensitivity is the byproduct of training, not the end goal.

Sensitivity to be applied in combat is the end goal. Applying chi sao/sensitivity in sparring is good, embedding sparring into chi sao detracts from the drill.

 

[Danny T]

When I just learned the WC system, I used the WC Tan Shou to "bounce" my opponent's punch arm away, I then used the same arm to punch on his face. I combined the block and punch by using the same arm.

IMO, if you can sense your opponent's intention, your opponent can sense your intention too. As soon as you have sensed your opponent's intention through your bridge, you destroy the bridge, enter, and finish your job.

Can certainly be utilized in that manner and is an excellent action. A higher level of usage would be to do so in the same motion vs deflect then punch. I should be the tan action is the punch. Think of a throwing a stone across water...the stone just skips along the water. Your punch is the deflection and just continues forward and strikes the opponent.

 

[Eric_H]

Sensitivity and reflexes go hand in hand. Chi Sao builds sensitivity thus you can react to your opponent because you sense through the connection where he will go and where you should go.

They do not. If that's what you mean by sensitivity, then we've really got nothing to argue about. I've met people with great sensitivity, but could not apply their WC when given variations on what they expect.

This is where I disagree. Good training comes from compartmentalizing your training. If I'm working on take down defense, them I'm only working on take down defense. If my training partner(not opponent) manages to take me down then we reset and we start again. What I don't do is revert to sparring when he manages to get his under hooks in and start blasting him. Same thing applies to a stick blocking drill, I'm not going to revert to sparring because my training partner gets a few strikes in. I'm doing the drill to improve my blocks, when I switch to something else mid drill to compensate for my lack of skill in that one area then I'm no longer doing the drill. This also prevents me from building confidence in my technique and teaches me not to rely on them.

If they are doing chi sao in a way that opens the exit to sparring, I will take the exit depending on the level of the student. Showing "Hey there's an exit here because of what you're doing" is not adding something in to a drill, it's refining the motion/feeling, growing their awareness. That's not randomly doing whatever, as you seem to imply, it's a specific part of the chi sao.

I think perhaps you are also thinking Chi Sao is a specific drill, probably the double handed Tahn/Bong/Fook cycle. That's just one area of chi sao, one drill in dozens.

Sensitivity to be applied in combat is the end goal. Applying chi sao/sensitivity in sparring is good, embedding sparring into chi sao detracts from the drill.

We agree on the first part and disagree on the second it seems. Take care.

 

[Anarax]

They do not. If that's what you mean by sensitivity, then we've really got nothing to argue about. I've met people with great sensitivity, but could not apply their WC when given variations on what they expect.

Sensitivity is not gained for the sake of sensitivity. You gain sensitivity to be able to sense movement and to be able to react to it both defensively and offensively . If they have good sensitivity and both people are doing actual chi sao, then he should be able to feel the movement and react. I didn't say they are the same thing, but one(sensitivity) is gained so they can react(reflexes).

If they are doing chi sao in a way that opens the exit to sparring, I will take the exit depending on the level of the student. Showing "Hey there's an exit here because of what you're doing" is not adding something in to a drill, it's refining the motion/feeling, growing their awareness. That's not randomly doing whatever, as you seem to imply, it's a specific part of the chi sao.

By exit do you mean opening? As they aren't protecting the center line or are open then you bridge into sparring? If so, that's exactly what I'm saying is detracting from chi sao.

 

[Juany118]

Could you elaborate? I've seen numerous kung fu schools that don't spar, they do chi sao instead. I think this approach produces students that don't know how to spar and are horrible at chi sao. They lack sensitivity, thus they look stiff and rigid. Just because a drill has combative elements or develops a fighting skill doesn't mean it's suppose to be sparring itself.

We have had this debate before. Often people who study WSLVT, in particular the Philipp Bayer version, doesn't see sensitivity as the purpose. Instead they often see it as developing speed, distance assessment, strength, stability and timing pertaining to attack and defence at the correct moment. Now personally I think it devolves to an argument over semantics, that most of these principles fall under the term "sensitivity" but it's how it's taught in some schools. /Shrug

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

speed, distance assessment, strength, stability and timing ...

When your arm touches on your opponent's arm, how much time do you need (1/10 sec, 1/2 sec, 1 sec, ...) to sense your opponent's intention whether his arm is moving to your

- left,
- right,
- up,
- down,
- forward,
- backward?

You don't need to stick on his arm forever and refuse to leave. The moment that you can sense your opponent's intention, your arm should

- move faster than his arm,
- borrow his force, and
- do your thing.

The WC sticky hand training may build up a bad habit and make you think that you should stick on your opponent's arm as long as you can. A simple arm grabbing can achieve that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sometime you don't even need to make that arm contact.

For example.

- You punch,
- Your opponent blocks,
- The moment that you "see" your opponent's arm is moving, you pull your punching arm back.
- Wait for his arm to pass over your striking path.
- You then punch back through the same striking path.

 

[KPM]

We have had this debate before. Often people who study WSLVT, in particular the Philipp Bayer version, doesn't see sensitivity as the purpose. Instead they often see it as developing speed, distance assessment, strength, stability and timing pertaining to attack and defence at the correct moment. Now personally I think it devolves to an argument over semantics, that most of these principles fall under the term "sensitivity" but it's how it's taught in some schools. /Shrug

I think they would say it is not about "sticking." You can have sensitivity without trying to "stick" to the opponent's limbs. That may be where the semantics make a difference.

 

[Callen]

We have had this debate before. Often people who study WSLVT, in particular the Philipp Bayer version, doesn't see sensitivity as the purpose. Instead they often see it as developing speed, distance assessment, strength, stability and timing pertaining to attack and defence at the correct moment. Now personally I think it devolves to an argument over semantics, that most of these principles fall under the term "sensitivity" but it's how it's taught in some schools. /Shrug

I think they would say it is not about "sticking." You can have sensitivity without trying to "stick" to the opponent's limbs. That may be where the semantics make a difference.

I would say that these are accurate assessments.

Most WSLVT practitioners view Chi Sau as more than a sensitivity drill and it is trained into different parts of the curriculum. It is one of many training tools that eventually get strung together in support of the overall implementation of Wing Chun concepts, often being utilized as a gateway into Goh Sau.

 

[Anarax]

Instead they often see it as developing speed, distance assessment, strength, stability and timing pertaining to attack and defence at the correct moment

I include those aspects under sensitivity, you can still train all those aspects when you approach it as a drill.

Now personally I think it devolves to an argument over semantics, that most of these principles fall under the term "sensitivity" but it's how it's taught in some schools

Though the definition of "sensitivity" varies from school to school, there is a fine line between a drill and sparring. Many schools have blurred the line between the two more and more. My point was the more you blur the line the less proficient the student becomes. Chi sao is suppose to help you develop those aspects so they can be applied in sparring/combat, but when you turn chi sao into sparring you're not developing those aspects.

 

[Juany118]

I would say that these are accurate assessments.

Most WSLVT practitioners view Chi Sau as more than a sensitivity drill and it is trained into different parts of the curriculum. It is one of many training tools that eventually get strung together in support of the overall implementation of Wing Chun concepts, often being utilized as a gateway into Goh Sau.

I would only say that most see it as more than a sensitivity drill (at least using the narrow definition of "touch sensitivity".) What I have occassionaly encountered is the semantics issue. The term sensitivity wasn't used when they learned chi-sau and so when someone from another lineage uses different lingo they instinctively say "wrong" when really you are largely talking about the same thing.

 

[geezer]

It just occurred to me while looking at the title of this thread:

To stick or not to stick?

That's what Hamlet said when he was deciding whether or not to attend his Escrima class.

...speaking of which, I need to gab my sticks and get going or I'll be late!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's look at what can happen in a fist fight.

1. You punch, your opponent block.
2. He punches, you block.
3. He is on guard. You open his guard and punch.
4. You are on guard. He opens your guard and punch.

IMO, all your sticky training should include these 4 situations. You should not try to stick on your opponent's arm and "refuse to leave".

 

[wckf92]

Let's look at what can happen in a fist fight.

1. You punch, your opponent block.
2. He punches, you block.
3. He is on guard. You open his guard and punch.
4. You are on guard. He opens your guard and punch.

IMO, all your sticky training should include these 4 situations. You should not try to stick on your opponent's arm and "refuse to leave".

Except......chi say is not a fight, but a partner drill.....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except......chi say is not a fight, but a partner drill.....

If you start with "goal", you then find the correct "path" to get there, your training will be more realistic.

goal ------> path

This way, you will know what is the "most important" training that is required to be a good fighter.

 

[Anarax]

If you start with "goal", you then find the correct "path" to get there, your training will be more realistic.

The problem with this is you believe that drills must be "realistic", which is not the case.

This way, you will know what is the "most important" training that is required to be a good fighter.

There is no "most important" training to be a good fighter. There are multiple areas a martial artist/fighter must work on to be skilled. For example; if you have great distance assessment but horrible attack speed what good is it? If you have great kicks but horrible guard and defense, then you're going to get lit up with counters. There is no end all and be all training drill to be a great fighter, it's compartmentalizing your training and drilling multiple things to a point that makes a great fighter.

Look at boxers, even though they have a limited amount of techniques they have a lot if drills. They have speed bag, heavy bag, sparring and numerous pad work drills. They compartmentalize they're training, that's why a lot of them have great hands.

When you blend certain training regiments together you lose sight of what it's supposed to be and you're not accomplishing your goal. If you turn chi sao into some sort of half game half sparring match, that is the only thing you're going to be good at. Meaning, if you encounter someone on the street and they are trained in wing chun, learned that version of "chi sao" and are less skilled than you, then that's the only time it will come in handy. Personally, I think this is a big reason why a lot of Wing Chun guys are bad at closing the distance.

I've seen this before in some training partners, they want to turn every drill into a sparring match. When they do so they believe they are making it more "real", but in fact they are detracting from the purpose of the drill. For example; in Kali we practice moves on each other to get the mechanics down. While practicing takedowns on each other we don't just fall over, nor do we give maximum resistance. However; I've had a partner they wants to give maximum resistance, at the time he thinks he's accomplishing something. He fails to realize that drills are drills and sparring is sparring. Because of his belief in "realism", he doesn't develop the techniques nor does he understand the mechanics. When he spars, you can catch him with almost any technique, sweeps, takedowns, disarms, etc.