To report or not to report...

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL
If I had an elementary school kid I would tell him that there is no reason to fight anyone, even if they throw the first punch, and you need to get away and tell and adult. I would also tell them that they should never be anyones punching bag; so if they can't run away and tell someone, then they need to defend themselves as best as they can.

I think the same advice goes for adults, only substitute telling an authority.

No one should ever just "let" someone kick their @$$. This is stupid, and not good self defense in my opinion.

I don't mean to suggest that you should be someone's punching bag. You're right, that's not good self defense. But a lot of people I talk to think that self defense is beating the guy to a pulp because "he pushed me first." They believe that simply because he struck first, it was self defense. Not so in the eyes of the law.

I am not sure how by not letting someone hurt me I am perpetuating violence either...this is nonsense to me.

When I talked about perpetuating the violence, I simply meant that he hits you, so you hit him, so he hits you for hitting him... It goes on and on. You can stop it simply by leaving the situation; believing that using more force than "self defense" is unnecessary.

IMO, the best way to handle the situation, is to simply do something to stop the attack, including blocking and striking back. But not to do it to punish the guy by "taking him out." If I can block, strike twice, to create enough room to escape, then I used self-defense appropriately. If I continued to attack, beating the pulp out of him all the while yelling "who's your daddy," then I've become the aggressor and can be charged with assault too, even if he jumped me first.

Unfortunatily, I am a cynic when it comes to our system. Our system does not always protect the innocent, in my opinion.

Our system is not perfect. It believes that you both are upstanding citizens with a dispute that has to be ironed out. There are no preconceived notions about who's the bad guy and who's the good guy. It all comes down to "facts" and who tells the better story. Part of the facts are the police report of the incident. If it checks out, it can hold a lot of weight.

Before it sees the courts, however, the prosecuter and police get involved (if a criminal suite) which can keep you from ever getting into a "he said/she said" contest in which you can look guilty. If they believe you honestly tried to defend yourself within the bounds of the law, they won't even charge you, especially if the other guy has a previous record. But, you have to follow the law with regards to what's self defense or not:

1) Immediate threat
2) Can't escape
3) Necessary amount of force

If a guy tells you to step outside and you do, win or lose it's not self defense (you can escape). If he hits you and then starts walking away and you attack him back, it's not self defense (no immediate threat). If he hits you and you pull a gun and shoot him, it's not self defense (unnecessary amount of force). Even if you go to the law first, you can't claim it and you'll probably both be charged.

He is probably some street punk with no $$ and no insurance. Sure...he'll go to jail, but I'll never see a dime. Mind you....I have just forked over thousands of $$ to build my case....yet I'll get no reward.

I think the money only applies in a civil suite. In a criminal suite, it's the state vs the guy and you're only a witness. Once the criminal suite is over, you can then go for damages in a civil suite to collect money, with a real good piece of evidence. Although I'm no lawyer...

WhiteBirch

 

[lvwhitebir]

I thought of another reason you might want to report an incident: to show a pattern of behavior.

If a guy attacks you and you somehow go in front of the police and pronounce that he's been attacking you for weeks before you went nuts on him, they probably won't just believe your word. If, however, there are police reports backing up your statement, they are more inclined to believe you. So you would look less culpable if there is a record of behavior backing up your actions to make them seem reasonable.

This is especially true for domestic abuse victims and acquaintance rape where victims are repeatedly attacked by the same person. It's sad that when they get fed up and actually fight back, they are generally accused of a crime because there is no evidence to back up their story.

By the way, less than 50% of crimes of violence are reported to the police (45.9% for men and 53.3% for women) according to the Criminal Victimization in the United States for 2001. That's scary. The number one reason for not reporting (19.2%): it's a "personal or private matter."

The number one reason for reporting the incident: "to prevent further crimes by offender against victim" at 21.0%.

"To stop or prevent this incident" was 16.9%
"Because it was a crime" was 13.2%
"To prevent crime by offender against anyone" was 10.3%
"To punish the offender" was 8.6%

WhiteBirch

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Do understand that just because you report the incident first does not mean you will be the one who gets to file charges. I have heard, more than once, "How can you arrest me?? I called you???!!
Know where you stand, and know when you need to use that right to reamain silent!


Chad

Damned straight! This is true...and this is why we have the right not to report something that may inciminate ourselves!

 

[Cruentus]

Here are 2 major incidences that keeps me on the fence about this issue. The names have been changed to protect the innocent!

Story #1: I knew this guy who knew martial arts. He was only about 18 years old, but he was well trained for his age. He was in a car with a friend following another car with his friends sister and her friend driving on the highway. The friend driving was about 19, the 2 girls in the other car were about 30. They were all driving home from a family event. It was summertime, and dark outside. The car with the 2 girls switched lanes. A pickup truck had thought that the girls cut him off, so he rode her @$$ and flashed his brights. The Girl driving tapped the brakes to slow down. Enraged, the pickup truck decided to drive on the shoulder of the road to pass the girls in their car, pass, get in front of the girls car, then completely slam on his brakes, causing both the truck and car to swerve off the road and stop. Luckily there was no damage to the vehicles or passengers....yet. Since the 2 guys were following, they pulled over as well. Both guys, who were young and unrealistic, suspected just to be able to talk the circumstance out, and then be on their way. There would be no talking, however. The driver of the truck grabbed the lady driver out of the driver side window, dragged her accrossed the hood of her car to the passenger side, propped her up, and cocked his fist back to hit her like she was a man. Just in time, the martial arts guy grabbed the guys punching arm in the crook of his arm preventing him from punching, grabbed the man behind his neck, twirled him around, and threw him headfirst into the front wheel well of his truck. The young man turned around to meet the fist of a 235 lb guy in the left eye. He was surrounded by 3 other guys all of a sudden. As it turns out, there was another car following the guy in the truck with 3 friends. This young martial arts man only weighed about 150 pounds...these 4 guys probably ranged in size from about 165 (the smallest guy) to 235 (the largest). They also ranged in age from 24 to 28 years old. Luckily, the young martial arts man didn't drop after that punch. He was able to fight the three that surrounded them off. He didn't get hit again...but they had bruises and bumps and black eyes. The fight ended with a rotary break on the 235 pound mans good wrist...a wrist that will never work correctly again. They all looked like construction type workers, so this would not be good for the man's future career. While the young martial arts man was fighting off the three guys, the original attacker who's head was thrown in the wheel well of his truck had been fighting the 2 girls and the friend. He had bitten up the arm of one of the girls. It is important to note that this man, the truck driver, also had his wife and a baby in the truck with him, watching the whole thing transpire.

At the break of the largest mans wrist, the chaos had ended. The very vocal 30 year old sister, the one who was originally pulled out of her vehicle, yelled for the young martial artist to grab his cell phone and call the cops. The Truck driver yelled, "What do you mean, you guys started it!" The Sister exclaimed, "Started it!?!?! Look at the bite marks on my arm! Look at us! We are 2 women and 2 young kids (the sister still looking at her 19 year old brother as a 'kid'), you are 4 grown men! I don't know what the hell is wrong with all of you, but I know one thing for damn sure is that the cops aren't going to give a damn who started it...and your going to jail. By this time the martial art guy made it to his cell phone and had called 911. The men all looked at each other after she said this....then they ran.

When the local small town cop arrived, they had the 2 guys and 2 girls drive down to the station where a similar report was filed by some other individuals. Yup...you guessed it, the 4 guys, wife, and baby, were all locals, and they ran to the station to file the report. Through questioning and filling out the report. The cop, who obviously knew the locals, said to the 2 guys and 2 girls, "You all are in a world of trouble. They have sustained some pretty serious injuries, and they may press charges." The 30 year old sister of the 19 year old said, "Well I want ot press charges! Look at my arm [showing bite marks]. Also...they reek of alcahol! I know that none of us have been drinking. If we're going to file reports, I want all of us to take a breathalizer test to see who is inhibited and who isn't!" That was the one smart thing the 30 year old said all night. The cop looked back at the other car with his local 'friends', looked back, then tore the report in half. "I don't think filing a report will be nessicary miss...why don't yall just drive along!" "They are drunk!" she exclaimed, "why don't you make them breath into a tube!" He replied,"Lady...I am an alcahol enforcement officer. I know if they are too drunk to make decisions, and I can tell you that they are not. So lets just leave it at that...why don't you all just go home." The cop walked away. Before the 30 year old could say another word, the martial arts guy who knew the severity of the evidence against him even though they weren't the criminals said, "Don't say another word. We don't need to get dragged through the courtrooms on this. There is too much evidence against us, and they are hurt way worse then us. Let it go...lets get the F-- out of here."

Those 4 could have been dragged through the courts on a case like this. With a biased report, a complicated story with complicated details, how would a jury be clear on who was really at fault? Plus, the injuries sustained by the attackers were far greater then the defenders, which would have further sealed the deal. The Young Martial Arts man may have been paying a lawsuit to the man with the broken wrist for the rest of his life. Was it right to report it...? Well considering that the attackers may have gotton license plate #'s, it was probably right in this case. But the fustrating thing is, the situation could have been much worse for the defendors in that the law might not have worked in their favor. In that cops attempt to save his buddies...he also saved their butts.

Story #2: I knew this other guy...A young man with combatives training was coming home from a bar in Windsor Canada, right accrossed the border from detroit, at about 1AM. He was leaving early by himself to beat the traffic. he had on a leather jacket, leather gloves, and no weapon. It was the dead of winter. He had to walk through a parking area between 2 buildings that was not secured to get to his car. He was approached by 3 young men around his same age...2 big guys over 6 feet tall, and one smaller guy about 5 feet 6 inches. The smaller guy yelled out a bunch of profanities nonsensically, and pulled out a knife, and stabbed at the young man who was by himself. The young man, without thinking and from instinct, intercepted the knife attackers wrist with his right hand, disarmed with the aid of the leather gloves with the left, and did a left handed downword slash on the attackers face, splitting it wide open and down the middle. The attacker dropped to the ground. The 2 larger accomplices backed up with a look of shock on their face...and the lone man went running through the parking lot. The whole incident took only a few seconds...happening so fast that the young man had no realization as to what happend until he got out of of site from the attackers. When he got out of site from his attackers, he ditched the blade. When he got to his car, he checked himself for blood, and then got into his vehicle. He drove 2 blocks, then ditched his leather gloves. He drove all the way accrossed the border and back home...unnoticed. There were no other witnesses outside of the 3 attackers, so the young man kept the event a secret even from his closest friends for about 5 years. He told no one. He lined up alibis for the evening, and he waited months before returning to windsor.

This young man didn't report the incident. SHould he have? What would have stopped the attackers from saying that the knife belonged to the young man? What would have stopped the victim from being prosecuted in this case. Now the event is long gone....and he got away with it. The attacker walked away with a lesson better then if they were dragged through court. In this case...I wouldn't have reported either. But... What would you have done?

I used the third grade example previously just to illustrate a point. But...we all know that life isn't like the third grade. These stories above are all true though. When I hear stuff like this...where it seems that if you successfully defend yourself your the one who is going to get prosecuted, then it makes me think that reporting an assult that you come out of unharmed when they are hurt is not in the best interest of the defendor, unless there is a good chance that they might face the police anyways.

What do you all think of these incidences? What would you have done?

PAUL

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Damned straight! This is true...and this is why we have the right not to report something that may inciminate ourselves!

Actually, it may not be enforced, but it is against the law not to report illegal behavior. So if there is a mugging, someone gets hurt, I would want to be on the right side.

7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL
Story #1: [snipped]

It just goes to show you that there are "dirty" cops around. That's all. It doesn't mean it wasn't right to report the incident. Had it happened to me, I might care enough to contact the state police and a lawyer to report the offending officer... What he did was illegal. They *have* to take a statement, AFAIK.

Story #2: [snipped]

I would have reported it. You look a hell of a lot less guilty if you report it. I don't know of any muggers that typically go to the police to report that they were attacked when things go wrong and they get hurt. Depending on the law, the hospital may have forced a police report because of the injuries he sustained. No report and:
1) the bad guys get the chance to do it all over again and I bet this wasn't their first time either,
2) if they had gone to the police or a lawyer and had any evidence such as blood or fingerprints, he would have been in a world of trouble and would look twice as guilty for ditching the evidence and escaping across the border
3) he's always living with the fear of "when are they going to find out."

I agree, there's always the tough call, and true victims don't necessarily get away unscathed, but I still think it's the right thing to do to report it.

Without reporting it, you're not doing anything to stop the violence. You're treating it as if it's a completly isolated incidence that will never happen again (most of the crimes committed are done by repeat offenders). In this case, the bad guy wins every time. He has no fear of justice. All the guy taught him was that he has to be trickier next time and learn to be better with the blade. The next guy that can't defend himself as well is in a lot worse trouble.

Incidences such as you described are close to commonplace (not the dirty cop). Bad guys usually attack lone targets where there aren't a lot of witnesses, so it's his word and background against your's; a good self defense strategy will probably mean the bad guy gets more harm done to him than to you. So when do you think *is* the right time to report it? Aren't the police there for a reason?

WhiteBirch

 

[OULobo]

Looks like frivolous lawsuits and counter litigation are starting to make it easier to say "I'm safe, that's good enough." verses "He must be stopped to make the world safer." Pretty sad state of affairs.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Actually, it may not be enforced, but it is against the law not to report illegal behavior. So if there is a mugging, someone gets hurt, I would want to be on the right side.

7sm

I am not so sure about that. I believe if there is the possability of you incriminating yourself, even if your not actually guilty of a crime, you are not required to report an incident.

I'll have to check on this one.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
It just goes to show you that there are "dirty" cops around. That's all. It doesn't mean it wasn't right to report the incident. Had it happened to me, I might care enough to contact the state police and a lawyer to report the offending officer... What he did was illegal. They *have* to take a statement, AFAIK.

But why draw more attantion by involving the state police? The defenders got off with minor injuries. The worse was the woman with the bites, and those marks lasted only about a week. The attackers recieved multiple injuries on a more serious level, one injury in particular (the wrist snap) ruining a mans entire career. The defenders can now move on with their lives and put the incident behind them. If the defenders were to persue something against the attackers and the cop, they would only be dragging on an incident and possibly incriminating themselves, or opening themselves up to lawsuits. Why do all that? With multiple and debilatating injuries, don't you think the attackers would have learned their lesson?

I would have reported it. You look a hell of a lot less guilty if you report it. I don't know of any muggers that typically go to the police to report that they were attacked when things go wrong and they get hurt. Depending on the law, the hospital may have forced a police report because of the injuries he sustained. No report and:
1) the bad guys get the chance to do it all over again and I bet this wasn't their first time either,

For one, if getting your face cut in half isn't going to be a wake up call, then having to go through the courts isn't either. And if you think filing a report is going to gauruntee getting these people off the streets, your wrong. If the three attackers collaborate their stories, then it could very well look like the defender tried to do the mugging.

2) if they had gone to the police or a lawyer and had any evidence such as blood or fingerprints, he would have been in a world of trouble and would look twice as guilty for ditching the evidence and escaping across the border

but the thing was, they didn't have that evidence. The defender had gloves on. The only blood left behind was the attackers. The knife was ditched away from the scene. The defenders car was parked blocks away from the scene. The gloves were ditched blocks away from that. Your talking about evidence such as gloves, a knife, maybe footprints, and attackers blood scattered around an entire kilometer radius. Plus, this wasn't a murder scene. If you think the cops in a big city are going to go looking all over town for matching evidence to the case, your wrong. If evidence was left behind that could incriminate the defender, then we would be talking about a different scenario.

3) he's always living with the fear of "when are they going to find out."

True. and this was a tough call for him. However, by weighing the chances of going through the courts and spending the $$ in a courtroom in a foriegn country, he figured it would be best to just hope they don't find him out.

I agree, there's always the tough call, and true victims don't necessarily get away unscathed, but I still think it's the right thing to do to report it.

Without reporting it, you're not doing anything to stop the violence. You're treating it as if it's a completly isolated incidence that will never happen again (most of the crimes committed are done by repeat offenders). In this case, the bad guy wins every time. He has no fear of justice. All the guy taught him was that he has to be trickier next time and learn to be better with the blade. The next guy that can't defend himself as well is in a lot worse trouble.

Incidences such as you described are close to commonplace (not the dirty cop). Bad guys usually attack lone targets where there aren't a lot of witnesses, so it's his word and background against your's; a good self defense strategy will probably mean the bad guy gets more harm done to him than to you. So when do you think *is* the right time to report it? Aren't the police there for a reason?

WhiteBirch

I have to disagree with you in the "not stoping the attackers" part of it. If you think jail time and a rap sheet is a good deterent for criminals, your wrong. Offenders are often repeat offenders. If the attacker recieves debilitating injuries that will effect him and remind him for the rest of his life, then this will either deter him from doing it again or it won't. I don't think added jail time is going to make any sort of difference.

I guess my point is that I feel that there is a time when you should just let sleeping dogs lie. I think the incidents were handled appropriately given the circumstances. It would be nice if the police, the judges, the juries, and our system all together would work in favor of the innocent and rightous in every case, but the unfortunate reality is that it just doesn't, especially in these circumstances.

PAUL

 

[MA-Caver]

As it's been pointed out before to report or not report depends upon the circumstances of the incident.
As for myself having been attacked several times in my colorful past my reporting the incident varied with the circumstances, i.e. the 8 guys that jumped my friend and I in St. Louis. Cops showed up and thus a report had to be filed regardless. I wasn't under arrest though there were injuries on 3 out of the 8. The cops saw that it was a clear-cut case of self defense... I mean duh! 8:1

Another case where I injured one of two attackers I didn't report it at all. Nothing came of it. Mainly because the two had ill intentions and KNEW what they were doing was wrong and there was no witnesses so nothing to sweat over as far as courts and that sort of thing.

For me whether or not I'll report will depend upon the situation. I will NOT lay down and let someone beat me or whatever and I will NOT let them get away with it. You get in a fight with me you're gonna walk away hurting even if you win... I'll make damn sure of it, so that you'll remember next time.

Whether I'll report it will depend upon my own assessement (which isn't an expert's opinion by a long shot...but experience does pay off) of the incident. If I can see that the police will view it in no other way than a clear case of self-defense then I'll file. If it looks dogey then forget it. I'll even go as a far as to query my active police friends with "hypothetical" situations and see what they think. If it looks strongly in my favor then I'll file ...or maybe not. It depends.

Police by and large will be on your side if you're the clear victim of an un-wanted attack (are they ever wanted?) and you had no alternative but to defend yourself and whomever you may be with. That you knew when to quit is a good sign as well.

Elsewhere on this forum I posted what Stephen R. Donaldson called "The Oath Of Peace". I'll say again this has been instrumental in helping me know when to say when as I'm defending myself.

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
I am not so sure about that. I believe if there is the possability of you incriminating yourself, even if your not actually guilty of a crime, you are not required to report an incident.

I'll have to check on this one.

According to a buddy of mine who works out with me, who also happens to work as an agent for the FBI, that is correct.

However, everyone is getting a little carried away with this topic. Involving the state police and all over a fight?

Just report it if you feel it warrents it, and dont if not, its pretty simple.


7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL
If you think jail time and a rap sheet is a good deterent for criminals, your wrong. Offenders are often repeat offenders. If the attacker recieves debilitating injuries that will effect him and remind him for the rest of his life, then this will either deter him from doing it again or it won't. I don't think added jail time is going to make any sort of difference.

If what you say is always true, then there is nothing legally you can do. The police and court system are all for naught. We then move into a world where only the strong survive and the only rule of law is the fist.

Originally posted by PAUL
I guess my point is that I feel that there is a time when you should just let sleeping dogs lie. I think the incidents were handled appropriately given the circumstances.

I just get the feeling that according to your requirements there is *no* right time to ever report an incident. If you've beaten off the guy then why get anyone else involved.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

WhiteBirch

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir


I just get the feeling that according to your requirements there is *no* right time to ever report an incident. If you've beaten off the guy then why get anyone else involved.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

WhiteBirch

Ah...I see.

I wouldn't say that there is no right time to report. I'd say that if the incident is inevitably going to end up in the hands of the police whether you report or not, then it would be best to be the first to report it. I would also report it if the attackers didn't recieve any injuries at all; like if I am able to run and drive away. I would report it because I wouldn't be at risk (I didn't injure them), and they might try to hurt someone else. I would also report it if I felt that I or my family was in danger of being attacked again by the same attackers; such as an incident where they attack me on my property, I defend, and they leave but with the possibility of comiing back with more friends.

So there are a lot of circumstances where reporting is a good idea. I just don't believe in reporting in every case. I feel that if I am in danger of being persecuted, I will not report the incident if I don't have to.

We can agree to disagree here on this.

:asian:

 

[jwreck]

But, you have to follow the law with regards to what's self defense or not:

1) Immediate threat
2) Can't escape
3) Necessary amount of force

THIS Isn't always the case. THE lawvaries in different states. For example, in Texas there is not obligation to retreat or escape.

 

[Cruentus]

Although I am sure state laws vary, I think those 3 rules that lvwhitebr posted are good rules to follow, for general safty/morality reasons, as well as for staying out of jail reasons.

I got these from a poster in bladeforums, and I thought they were pretty good also:

To pull a knife or gun on another for your own defense you need to meet the self defense requirements.

1. Aggreesor had the means to kill or mame you
2. The aggressor had the opportunity to mame or kill you
3. The aggressor has shown intent to mame or kill you.[verbally or physically ]

I think the above is just some good rules to justify lethal force. Lethal force doesn't just cover the realm of Guns and Knives, though. We must remember this as martial artists. All a prosecuter has to do is bring up my training in Combat arts, and my empty hand defense can be construed as lethal force as well; and if he isn't trying to maim or kill me I could be in huge trouble, especially if I step over the boundries of "necessary amount of force."

THis is just something to think about.

 

[7starmantis]

Very well said, I have to agree completely!

7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by jwreck
THIS Isn't always the case. THE lawvaries in different states. For example, in Texas there is not obligation to retreat or escape.

From what I've read, that only applies to defense of home. If you're attacked in your home, must states say you don't have to retreat. Otherwise you do. It would be interesting if Texas or any state says that you never have to be able to retreat. Can you verify this for me?

If true, that means that if I'm on the 3rd floor of a building and someone screams up to me from the ground that he's coming up to kill me with his gun (immediate threat with a lethal weapon) that I have the legal right to shoot him where he stands. I have a hard time understand why that would be true.

WhiteBirch

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir

If true, that means that if I'm on the 3rd floor of a building and someone screams up to me from the ground that he's coming up to kill me with his gun (immediate threat with a lethal weapon) that I have the legal right to shoot him where he stands. I have a hard time understand why that would be true.

WhiteBirch

Actually...that makes sense if your in Texas, probably! :rofl:

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
If true, that means that if I'm on the 3rd floor of a building and someone screams up to me from the ground that he's coming up to kill me with his gun (immediate threat with a lethal weapon) that I have the legal right to shoot him where he stands. I have a hard time understand why that would be true.

WhiteBirch

That's kind of extenuating, wouldn't you say. I mean, all laws have a degree of flexibility for unique circumstances. Even if the letter of the law says you are justified, if you have an aggressive prosecutor (and almost all of them are), you still have to convince a jury, right? Besides, it's debatable that this circumstance is an "immediate" threat.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by PAUL
I think the above is just some good rules to justify lethal force. Lethal force doesn't just cover the realm of Guns and Knives, though. We must remember this as martial artists. All a prosecuter has to do is bring up my training in Combat arts, and my empty hand defense can be construed as lethal force as well; and if he isn't trying to maim or kill me I could be in huge trouble, especially if I step over the boundries of "necessary amount of force."
THis is just something to think about. [/B]

Okay, but how do you DETERMINE that lethal force is required? Even if the guy is yelling at you "I'm gonna, kick your a**, I'm gonna kill you man!" 99% of the time it's just B.S. and that's from personal experience. I've never had ANYBODY carry out a specific threat to me yet... partially because I didn't ALLOW him to do so, but mostly because it's just hot air, blowing off steam, working themselves to a frenzy to attack because they're just-as-scared (or more)-as-you-are.

But I've been in life threatening situations... (i.e. GUN!) and thus used what ever means I could to get out of it... mainly: the "Feets don't fail me now" method has worked wonders. I've been stabbed, cut and shot at (I said I had a colorful life) but in each of those circumstances I've rendered enough counter force to incapaciate my assailant where I could get away. I've so far (Thank God) never killed anyone or had intent to kill any of my assailants. I don't want to but ...
But question remains, how do you know when it's time to adjust to kill? The answer I feel goes back to the old cliche' "depends on the situation".
I've learned that no man/woman (including myself) can and will know what he/she is capable/willing to do in any given situation until it happens. Sometimes I think, the law fails to take that into account (for and against).
Our MA training should provide us with the means to counter any lethal action against us. It also should provide us with the means of knowing where the line is and not do unto them what they intend to do to us.

"Do not hurt where holding is enough, do not wound where hurting is enough, do not maim where wounding is enough, do not kill where maiming is enough... the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill " ~The Oath Of Peace~ from The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant written by Stephen R. Donaldson

:asian: