To Protect and Serve?

[sgtmac_46]

Aye, the extra information does make a world of difference in terms of interpretation.

I still am of the opinion that I would be appalled if my missus was put through such treatment but it does put a less tainted light on the officers to learn that Mrs. Steffey's behaviour was warped by five beers, anti-depressants and a concussion.

Even reasonable, ordinary people can behave very unreasonably at times and the original news reports I saw did not make clear at all the things that have been brought up above. The most salient being that thoughts of self-harm were expressed quite directly.

I can understand officers not wanting to end up with a suicide victim on their hands and can see how things would escalate from there.

It doesn't make it right in my eyes, even now in the light of day when I've slept and therefore not so apt to respond as emotionally as I am at three in the morning. But, as I said before, I live in a different country, under different laws, so I can't really judge; especially if the citizenry who do live in that cultural context are not unduly disturbed by such actions.

I can guarantee that British detention centers do not allow those who are incarcerated to behave in any manner they wish.

Hope Steffey would have ended up tossed in an iso-cell against her will the same in London as in Canton.

I think your view that Britain's jails and prisons are some kind of fairy land are a bit naive......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/25/law.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4182683.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4098867.stm


The difference is that the United States is the most transparent society on the planet.....EVERYONE knows our dirty laundary, and the ironic result of that transparency is the assumption that because we are so transparent, we are worse than everyone else, while the reality is that we are more TRANSPARENT than everyone else.

So it doesn't seem to be some difference in 'laws' but your preceptions of Britain versus America......perhaps you should investigate British transparency on the matter.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye but neither have I heard of cases where several officers forcibly stripped a woman who was handcuffed (tho' as you alluded to above, it may just be that I haven't heard).

The institutional attitudes and the national characters seem very different. Tho' they are converging, the way's in which the people and the officials of our two countries behave are not the same. Which is probably why I was so shocked when I first saw the news clips last night.

I should have know better really than react so strongly to 'news' from an American 'Video Tabloid' station, where ratings and sensationalism are more important than facts. I'm too used to the BBC where the news is the News, not an extension of entertainment (tho' even that is changing for the worse these days ... must be getting old ).

Still, altho' I'm a little embarassed to have expressed myself so strongly last night, I'm glad that I posted up the thread as I have learned quite a bit more about my fellows here at MT and how the Law Enforcement system 'ticks' for the ordinary person.

My thanks.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Aye but neither have I heard of cases where several officers forcibly stripped a woman who was handcuffed (tho' as you alluded to above, it may just be that I haven't heard).

The institutional attitudes and the national characters seem very different. Tho' they are converging, the way's in which the people and the officials of our two countries behave are not the same. Which is probably why I was so shocked when I first saw the news clips last night.

I should have know better really than react so strongly to 'news' from an American 'Video Tabloid' station, where ratings and sensationalism are more important than facts. I'm too used to the BBC where the news is the News, not an extension of entertainment (tho' even that is changing for the worse these days ... must be getting old ).

Still, altho' I'm a little embarassed to have expressed myself so strongly last night, I'm glad that I posted up the thread as I have learned quite a bit more about my fellows here at MT and how the Law Enforcement system 'ticks' for the ordinary person.

My thanks.

Don't be embarrassed....you're an intelligent poster and your posts are well thought out. I enjoy them even when on rare occassions I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.......but polite debate is what makes life interesting!


But you hit on something profound....the nature of American sensationalist media tends to cast America in a bad light......if there is one thing we seem to enjoy in America, it's controversy.......and the rest of the world sits back watching American media coverage like we watch 'special episodes' of Jerry Springer.

Watching the BBC is like taking a step back to US news from the the distant past.......it's sober and.....dignified?

In the US media outlets milk 'Police Corruption' stories regardless of their merits.....all they care about is the allegation......it sells papers. You'll see the allegation written on the front page.......if something comes along to destroy their story, like video they didn't know about that skews it away from their alleged victim.......you'll see it buried on page 8!

In fact usually US media only has the attention span to milk the allegation.......it doesn't follow the story for the months of investigation, and only shows up again if any cops get charged.......if they get declared innocent of any wrong-doing it's unlikely to be followed up on......unless there is a racial element to stoke the fires of!

 

[Sukerkin]

Likewise, good sir :rei:.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Here's a problem with discussing police use of force, and this holds just as true for martial artists without police experience as the lay public.....we tend to view physical confrontations between citizen and citizen as who is a physical threat to whom, who has the power to do what, and what is reasonable to defend yourself and escape....

But when discussing law enforcement that's not the complete picture......because an LEO or Corrections Officers job isn't only to avoid attack, it is often times to control subjects, to bring them in to compliance, to physically make them do something if necessary.

We see a 110 pound woman, and we say 'Ahhh....she wouldn't be that big of a threat to me.....this makes no sense'......but someone who says that hasn't tried to physically control a combative 110 pound woman, one who's clawing, kicking, biting, spitting.......it's not simply a matter of preventing her from hurting you, you are also required to physically control her and put her in an isolation cell to prevent her from harming herself.......how does one do that without doing what these corrections officers did?

It's obvious that she had no intention of cooperating with those CO's.......it's obvious she had made overt statements of harming herself......it's obvious she was physically combative.......and the force used did not physically harm her.

The whole 'I felt like I was raped without penetration'......that's merely for jury consumption......that's attorney recommended language for maximum impact.




So here's the roll playing scenario for anyone who disagrees with what was done.........you are a Corrections Officer on duty when this woman is brought in to your cell.......your policy says what must be done when someone is making suicidal statements and is a threat to themselves or others......she IS NOT going to cooperate with your attempts to do it the easy way.......and you have ONLY the jail staff that you have.....i.e. no calling out to quick hire some more female staff.



So......lets spitball it......how would some of you folks have handled this situation differently.

 

[Brian King]

"Aye but neither have I heard of cases where several officers forcibly stripped a woman who was handcuffed"

That would be an interesting trick it would seem like the cuffs would impede. Are you allowed to cut off the clothing and leave the subject restrained?

Brian

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think you will find like in almost all honorable professions the world over that there are a high percentage of very, very good people doing tough jobs. There is also that small percentage who often skirt the lines and make everyone's job tougher. American law enforcement from a standard of professionalism is very, very good and matches up well with almost all industrialized countries. Though each and every industrialized country will have bumps and bruises along the way as someone forgets a procedure or someone violates a procedure or code of conduct. This type of behavior does happen everywhere. We must be vigilante to stop it and help the people in charge to take care of it. Therefore everyone in any society benefits.

When it comes to this type of behavior the good officer's do make up for it in spades by dealing with all the crap that comes there way day in and day out that nobody else wants to deal with.

 

[Sukerkin]

That would be an interesting trick it would seem like the cuffs would impede. Are you allowed to cut off the clothing and leave the subject restrained?

Brian

It must've been my tired eyes playing tricks on me watching those small vids last night as it was my impression that Mrs. Steffey hands were still cuffed. More likely to have been that the officers were restraining her as it does seem a little difficult otherwise on reflection.

 

[jks9199]

Here's a problem with discussing police use of force, and this holds just as true for martial artists without police experience as the lay public.....we tend to view physical confrontations between citizen and citizen as who is a physical threat to whom, who has the power to do what, and what is reasonable to defend yourself and escape....

But when discussing law enforcement that's not the complete picture......because an LEO or Corrections Officers job isn't only to avoid attack, it is often times to control subjects, to bring them in to compliance, to physically make them do something if necessary.

We see a 110 pound woman, and we say 'Ahhh....she wouldn't be that big of a threat to me.....this makes no sense'......but someone who says that hasn't tried to physically control a combative 110 pound woman, one who's clawing, kicking, biting, spitting.......it's not simply a matter of preventing her from hurting you, you are also required to physically control her and put her in an isolation cell to prevent her from harming herself.......how does one do that without doing what these corrections officers did?

It's obvious that she had no intention of cooperating with those CO's.......it's obvious she had made overt statements of harming herself......it's obvious she was physically combative.......and the force used did not physically harm her.

The whole 'I felt like I was raped without penetration'......that's merely for jury consumption......that's attorney recommended language for maximum impact.




So here's the roll playing scenario for anyone who disagrees with what was done.........you are a Corrections Officer on duty when this woman is brought in to your cell.......your policy says what must be done when someone is making suicidal statements and is a threat to themselves or others......she IS NOT going to cooperate with your attempts to do it the easy way.......and you have ONLY the jail staff that you have.....i.e. no calling out to quick hire some more female staff.



So......lets spitball it......how would some of you folks have handled this situation differently.

I once arrested this little, 5 ft 6 in, 110 lbs or so guy. I cuffed him without a problem; it took 4 of us to carry and drag him out of the garden-style apartment, up the stairs and out to my cruiser. Sounds easy... unless you've been there.

The best analogy I've come up with is to ask parents who've struggled to get a 3 year old dressed or into a car seat... Ain't nearly as easy as you'd think!

 

[Archangel M]

Not to be too hard on ya Sukerkin, you are one of the most level headed, respectful posters here and I look forward to your contributions, but I must respectfuly say that I dont think you really know whats probably going on in your own countries correctional institutions at the moment. Not to repeat whats already been said here, but the reason stuff like this LOOKS so bad is because our society is so transparent. Our Freedom Of Information Act allows for this transparency.

Most martial artists here dont realize the huge diference there is between "fighting" someone vs. forcing someone to comply in a custodial situation. The officers here were videotaping what they were doing to document that they were following proceedure and its been turned against them. The fact that they prepared their approach like this leads me to believe that they exhausted all other options available to them and had "Asked for compliance...explained the options to her....confirmed that she wasnt going to comply...then acted" (bit of verbal judo training there).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I once arrested this little, 5 ft 6 in, 110 lbs or so guy. I cuffed him without a problem; it took 4 of us to carry and drag him out of the garden-style apartment, up the stairs and out to my cruiser. Sounds easy... unless you've been there.

The best analogy I've come up with is to ask parents who've struggled to get a 3 year old dressed or into a car seat... Ain't nearly as easy as you'd think!

There is pure truth in those words on both ends.

 

[Sukerkin]

I just want to thank the members here, professional and otherwise, for their input into this. What has come out of my OP has been much better than I hoped, particularly as I was filled with late night 'righteous indignation' at what I had just seen and truly did not think things through.

Yes, I was tired (it was the early hours again for me), yes I was in pain (I'm off work with a kidney infection (not fun)) but you would have thought that I would have been clear headed enough to realise that if someone is filming something in an official capacity they're not going to be doing something heinously illegal.

I reacted with my emotions, not my head .

In a minor defence of myself, you chaps really need to get a handle on what passes for television journalism in your country. Those clips that I first saw and responded to were really misleading. That wasn't news reporting; it was sensationalism and it was guaranteed to promote ill-feeling towards the police force.

Given that policing can only occur effectively with the consent of the general population, such reporting is not helpful. Excesses need to uncovered and dealt with most certainly but turning the police into the 'enemy' helps noone. If I, briefly, 'assisted' in that, my apologies.

 

[jks9199]

I just want to thank the members here, professional and otherwise, for their input into this. What has come out of my OP has been much better than I hoped, particularly as I was filled with late night 'righteous indignation' at what I had just seen and truly did not think things through.

Yes, I was tired (it was the early hours again for me), yes I was in pain (I'm off work with a kidney infection (not fun)) but you would have thought that I would have been clear headed enough to realise that if someone is filming something in an official capacity they're not going to be doing something heinously illegal.

You'd think that... but it does happen. More often than you'd believe! Both professionals and idiot crooks... and some who got hired but are really idiot crooks, too.

One significant danger in US law enforcement is the Us-vs-Them mentality that develops, especially in light of the "clientelle" we deal with. Nobody calls the cops to show off their kid's straight As or how nicely the family gets along. There's also a lot stuff about police work -- just like marriage, parenthood, medical practice, and many other things -- that you just aren't likely to get until you've been there. And -- like medicine and parenthood -- everyone's an armchair expert.

I reacted with my emotions, not my head .

In a minor defence of myself, you chaps really need to get a handle on what passes for television journalism in your country. Those clips that I first saw and responded to were really misleading. That wasn't news reporting; it was sensationalism and it was guaranteed to promote ill-feeling towards the police force.

Currently, there's not a lot of journalism at all in the US, in my opinion... Too many reporters are anything but objective. But that's a topic worthy of its own thread!

Given that policing can only occur effectively with the consent of the general population, such reporting is not helpful. Excesses need to uncovered and dealt with most certainly but turning the police into the 'enemy' helps noone. If I, briefly, 'assisted' in that, my apologies.

This sentence reflects strongly Sir Robert Peel's thinking about policing. And there is a large amount of truth to it. However, despite our common heritage, there are significant differences culturally between the US and the UK. There are things that you accept which no "American" would stand for -- and things we tolerate that you would be up in arms over. Fortunately, there's room in this world for both!

 

[Archangel M]

No problem Sukerkin. This whole thing is a case study in whats wrong with our American media IMO.

As an aside, my brother-in-law has relatives in Spain. When they came over to visit this year his male cousin stated that he was "afraid" of American police. I can only assume that this fear is based on these sensationalized incidents. Its kind of disturbing.

Question. Do all the "wildest police chases", "wildest police shootouts" etc. programs that are all over US networks air "over there"?

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, we see programs of that ilk aired over here in the UK.

Mostly it's on Satellite rather than the terrestial channels but these days a large proportion of the population has access to Satellite so that means that many of us get to see such things.

It's interesting how perceptions can vary around the world and with information access. From what I've heard about Spanish police, it's a bit of a surprise that Angel's cousin felt so strongly adverse to American officers. Spain's not been all that long out of the fascist shadow and their policing reflects that.

For myself, I admit that until I got onto the Net, my ideas of America police were unflattering in the extreme. It's only since I've gotten to 'talk' to the likes of you fellows that I've begun to get a better impression of trained people trying to do an impossible job under ludicrous circumstances.

Before then, well, the 'hick redneck' sheriff out of the Roger Moore Bond movie was pretty much what my idea of 'rural' Law Enforcement was. Combined with rule breaking, graft taking, scumbag officers who were no better than the criminals, which was what the movies fed the world, no wonder low opinions abound.

 

[Archangel M]

Thing to remember is that America is a HUGE place. Policing in a small 2 officer rural town IS different from metro NYPD and all the shades of difference in between. The way my Town is policed is vastly different than the way the adjoining Metro area is. We dont have national policing (or the European equivalent) with homogenous training/staffing/operations or standards here. Remember in the grand scheme of history we are still closer to the frontier/colonial era than our ancient European ancestors with their thousands of years of history and traditions. There ARE major differences in the way we do things here. Some may be seen as better or worse depending on your viewpoint. Hell..even within the last 30 years there has been MAJOR change in American policing in terms or training and professionalism. Ask any oldtimer in American law enforcement. In the 1960's-70's your viewpoint was closer to the mark than you may know (on a place by place basis). Some areas still have their problems (New Orleans has struggled in recent years), but by and large US LE is a MUCH more professional organization than any time in its history.

For some reason Europeans "seem" (from my vantage point) to accept that things are different between say Germany and Spain, but New York and California are seen as being identical even though they are geographically (and dare I say culturally) much farther apart.

 

[Sukerkin]

Excellent comments all through there, especially that last which is a very good point indeed, Angel. I confess that to some extent I fall into the same trap of mis-thinking too.

I can distinguish the gulf between rural and urban policing but being so used to a homogenous legal system it still fazes me a little that laws and procedures can vary quite markedly from State to State.

 

[jks9199]

Excellent point, Archangel. Even in the area I work, every agency has its own unique culture and relationship to the people in its community. And handles its cases in its own way... In fact, that's one of the biggest challenges that the regional task force I'm on faces. It can be incredibly frustrating trying to get different agencies to get along...

 

[sgtmac_46]

I once arrested this little, 5 ft 6 in, 110 lbs or so guy. I cuffed him without a problem; it took 4 of us to carry and drag him out of the garden-style apartment, up the stairs and out to my cruiser. Sounds easy... unless you've been there.

The best analogy I've come up with is to ask parents who've struggled to get a 3 year old dressed or into a car seat... Ain't nearly as easy as you'd think!

Yeah, i've got a 2 year old who occasionally goes on a kicking a screaming fit when it's time to get him in a car seat....especially when we've been to the park and he doesn't think it's time to leave.....took me 5 minutes one day!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not to be too hard on ya Sukerkin, you are one of the most level headed, respectful posters here and I look forward to your contributions, but I must respectfuly say that I dont think you really know whats probably going on in your own countries correctional institutions at the moment. Not to repeat whats already been said here, but the reason stuff like this LOOKS so bad is because our society is so transparent. Our Freedom Of Information Act allows for this transparency.

Most martial artists here dont realize the huge diference there is between "fighting" someone vs. forcing someone to comply in a custodial situation. The officers here were videotaping what they were doing to document that they were following proceedure and its been turned against them. The fact that they prepared their approach like this leads me to believe that they exhausted all other options available to them and had "Asked for compliance...explained the options to her....confirmed that she wasnt going to comply...then acted" (bit of verbal judo training there).

That appears to be exactly the case....what we have here is a woman high on mind-altering substances who was obviously a threat to herself and others, and that started long before the police got involved....as evidenced by the fact that she'd already gotten in a fight earlier with a family member (and i'm betting it was her behavior then that precipitated that violent exchange)....she had no intention, in her altered state, of cooperating whatsoever with any of this process.....