Twin Fist
Grandmaster
no, a martial artist that trains for the street, not tournaments
TKD school - sparring optional?
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Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
We once used a plastic cover and bamboo stuff hogus in Kenya. The newer competition hogus offer a little more protection -- depending on how they are strapped and type of blow -- than those old ones, even though they are lighter and more comfortable to wear.
ATACX GYM
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I used to think that sparring with a hogu on was pretty funny and stupid,hahaha,I used to laugh at those guys.Hahaha.
Then a 50 year old Hapkido,TKD,Hung Gar and HRD Grandmaster by the name of Grandmaster Chu kicked me in the chest after I belittled the notion of wearing a hogu.Never saw his foot move.Blew me off of my feet, flew a couple of feet airborne,hit the ground and rolled over in a involuntary backward roll like a gymnast.Air gone from my lungs.Eyes glassy.
And he'd taken it easy on me.
I started wearing the hogu whenever I was sparring hard with Korean style kicking masters.Happily. I even started employing it for body punches and body work in my Kenpo and boxing.
Now I'm the one kicking people who blithely and ignorantly diss the wearing of the hogu.
Now...with the former Olympians who I train my kicking technique with...it's a vital piece of equipment. I wouldn't leave it off if I was sparring with high contact multiple opponents.I've sparred quite a bit without it,but those kicks were lighter contact blows.More technical sessions.And very illustrative of what would happen on the street with zero equipment.Those kicks are even faster and harder to defend against in street combat.In close quarters.And yes your head can and will be kicked all of the way off if you make one small misstep. I can happily say that my head's avoided being kicked for years now...but I've had too many close calls of the "WHEW I juuuuuust avoided THAT one!" variety to denigrate or underestimate the kicking prowess and thus the protective gear of TKD and similar kicking styles.I have a dan in tang soo do too.Heads roll there too for the same reasons.
That's the real value of a hogu, as a vital piece of training equipment. No other gear really allows you to train both kicks and punches to the body with light, medium or full contact against a live, moving target at actual real distance. It's not about sparring with a hogu so much as it is doing hogu drills with the hogu.
Earl Weiss
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I could definitely see it as a piece of training equipment if I were going to let someone kick me full blast. We typicaly use kicking "Shields" for this type of training. I wasn't holding it as I should have once and the student missed and hit me. For a time I thought I was headed for the hospital. Took 2 months to heal.
Have seen some MMA trainers use similar equipment.
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Add me to the list that dislikes the Hogu (chest guard). Maybe they make them better these days.. but they were a pain to wear way back when.
I never used one that I didn't feel like the pilsbury doe boy while wearing it. They were probably too long or something, because whenever I would lift my knee to throw a kick, the entire pad would lift up and run into my jaw.
The padded ones were so thick that it was practically impossible to get your elbows together to block your mid section. Actually for me it's hard on my arm mobility. The bamboo ones were better in that regard as they were thinner.
Too hot... I sweat buckets when wearing them. Very uncomfortable. For me, I've found that wearing chest gear slows me down and makes me feel awkward when I spar.
I haven't worn one in YEARS.. decades actually.. Anyway, back when I was using them, most of us purchased VERY SMALL sizes.. some even went to kid sizes, just to keep the size and bulkiness of the gear from interfering with our sparring techniques.
I think that wearing the chest gear has an impact on the defense aspect of sparring. First, as I said, your arms are hampered in their movement. And second, there is less consequence with getting whacked with a kick or punch.
On a bit of a tangent here though.
I was thinking in general terms of wearing padding. I'm sure some here remember the days when you couldn't buy protective gear for karate. The first I saw of it was back in (thinking..) about 1975 or 1976.. Joon Rhee made it.
Prior to that, if we wanted gear we made it ourselves. Master Long showed us how to use varicose vein sox along with a cut piece of high density foam. Back then we would use more aspects of our hands than just the knuckles.. and there really wasn't any boxing type pad or wrap that would work for us.
At tournaments, you would usually see 2 or 3 knock outs.. as you would expect when going full speed against an opponent. Even if you were trying to stop just short with your back fist, your opponent would rush in unexpectedly and wham.. down he'd go. It happened all the time. Broken ribs, kicks to the groin.. it was rough, but we all knew what we were getting into, and we knew how to block.
Then after Joon Rhee's gear became popular, they started letting it be used in tournaments - eventually it became required of course. I remember the first tournament I was in after the gear was allowed.. It was a frigging blood bath. It was as if every one thought.. gee.. I have these cool pads, now I can smack people as hard as I want.
So we went from a controlled contact environment were SOME were hurt.. to a raging blood bath were people were getting carried out on stretchers.
Oh well. Sorry for the rumination and thread jack.
I never used one that I didn't feel like the pilsbury doe boy while wearing it. They were probably too long or something, because whenever I would lift my knee to throw a kick, the entire pad would lift up and run into my jaw.
The padded ones were so thick that it was practically impossible to get your elbows together to block your mid section. Actually for me it's hard on my arm mobility. The bamboo ones were better in that regard as they were thinner.
Too hot... I sweat buckets when wearing them. Very uncomfortable. For me, I've found that wearing chest gear slows me down and makes me feel awkward when I spar.
I haven't worn one in YEARS.. decades actually.. Anyway, back when I was using them, most of us purchased VERY SMALL sizes.. some even went to kid sizes, just to keep the size and bulkiness of the gear from interfering with our sparring techniques.
I think that wearing the chest gear has an impact on the defense aspect of sparring. First, as I said, your arms are hampered in their movement. And second, there is less consequence with getting whacked with a kick or punch.
On a bit of a tangent here though.
I was thinking in general terms of wearing padding. I'm sure some here remember the days when you couldn't buy protective gear for karate. The first I saw of it was back in (thinking..) about 1975 or 1976.. Joon Rhee made it.
Prior to that, if we wanted gear we made it ourselves. Master Long showed us how to use varicose vein sox along with a cut piece of high density foam. Back then we would use more aspects of our hands than just the knuckles.. and there really wasn't any boxing type pad or wrap that would work for us.
At tournaments, you would usually see 2 or 3 knock outs.. as you would expect when going full speed against an opponent. Even if you were trying to stop just short with your back fist, your opponent would rush in unexpectedly and wham.. down he'd go. It happened all the time. Broken ribs, kicks to the groin.. it was rough, but we all knew what we were getting into, and we knew how to block.
Then after Joon Rhee's gear became popular, they started letting it be used in tournaments - eventually it became required of course. I remember the first tournament I was in after the gear was allowed.. It was a frigging blood bath. It was as if every one thought.. gee.. I have these cool pads, now I can smack people as hard as I want.
So we went from a controlled contact environment were SOME were hurt.. to a raging blood bath were people were getting carried out on stretchers.
Oh well. Sorry for the rumination and thread jack.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
not the first time i have heard that gear destroyed the concept of focused control.
Depends on what type of shield but it could hamper mobility of the pad holder. Do you move around when holding the shield, or stay in one place? Once you get the hang of "holding" the hogu for your partner, then the drills are only limited by your imagination. For realistic impact, recovery after the kick, steps, movement, distance and timing, there really is no better way to train, at least for kicking. Hogu drills is where it's at.
ATACX GYM
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I absolutely agree.We have a gaillion jillion drills using this piece of equipment. In combo with airshields focus mitts and MT pads plus striking back at your opponent with kicks and punches and everything? You have an incredibly intense workout that's very veeerrry realistic. You can use it for continuous body blows in boxing,you can use it MMA and SD style...the works. We even use it when sparring with weapons but want moderate contact,instead of full contact. It was cool.
mastercole
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So true. While figuring out what style at which dojo I wanted to study out here in the SF Bay Area, I visited one okinawan karate school because all of my karate forms matched the ones they do at their school and therefore keeping my current rank without having to start over would have been doable.... visited the school, watched a class... talked to the owner about the schedule and class options... learned that they don't spar, at all. Never went back there. Went to my current kenpo school I signed up at to visit, they didn't make me watch a class, they let me try a class... worked out with them, asked about sparring, saw their faces light up, made sure they wouldn't make me wear a chest protector during sparring (my last school, a tae kwon do school, did this and I hated it) saw their faces light up even more as they told me they don't allow the students to wear chest guards... knew I was home
When there is no full force, full contact strikes to the body allowed, you don't need a hogu (chest gear)
mastercole
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The problem with the kicking shield is that it is in a different place, held out at least a foot or more from the body line. So the head and legs are way back from the center mass line of the shield, this throws off the time.impact.penetration equation of the strike. We use shield more for anaerobic/explosive and plyometric movement drills.
Fighting drills use the hogu.
mastercole
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The hogu is not there so much to protect the body. Any protection it gives is a secondary consideration.
The hogu is an intelligent training tool for fighting skills.
mastercole
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So during training you have segments where you punch to eachothers face full blast, and kick/knee/punch the stomach and ribs full blast and kick the balls full blast, all without any protective gear?
mastercole
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I care, because you are making statements that end up being false, which makes me question all your other statements.
I'm sure you understand my point?
mastercole
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Right, your training to be a street fighter, sweet.
How long you been training for street fights? How old were you when you started training for street fights?
Thanks
As Taekwondo competition evolved, one of the reasons for the use of hogu was to facilitate scoring. The scoring areas are clearly marked on a hogu and when you kick it properly, it makes a loud sound. Hogu makes it easier on referees to score matches, back when referees actually scored points to the body. The old hogus made of cloth and bamboo did not make as good a sound as the modern hogu, and it discouraged people from using roundhouse kick, which is the engine of Taekwondo competition.
The paddle as a training tool fails for basically the same reasons above. The paddle is held short, from the kicker's perspective, so distance is off. Paddles are good for basic technique and for speed training, but hogu is better for distance and timing. With hogu, you get a realistic response and feedback on the recoil of the kick; on paddles, not so much. If I had to choose only one type of equipment, it would be a pair of hogus. The only kick that is maybe better with paddles is spin hook kick, and perhaps ax kick, but you can substitute a hogu for both these kicks. Just take it off and hold it up.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
hmmm.....44 now.....started training when i was 19.....thats...a long time
look Boss, you want to wear it, go for it. I myself think it looks like a giant maxi pad and serves the same purpose as a regular maxi pad....
down here in Texas, we train with contact, HARD contact, and minimal protection.
The thought process is "if you wont have it on the street, dont get used to wearing it in training."
you are invited to disagree, or not. No sweat off my butt either way
Is it really? Compared to who or what?
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Time is certainly not a good judge of where someone is at in martial arts. Ive met guys who have trained for 40 years but they only show up once a week, put in little effort, spend most of their time walking around the dojang 'socialising' or going to 'meetings' etc etc. Then Ive met people who have ten years experience but they train their backsides off 5 days a week religiously, and spend their spare time working on their kick bag at home and stretching and looking for new ways to improve. Time is all relative. I dont care about belts and stripes and years in grade, I judge someone by what they can do.
