TKD school - sparring optional?

[ralphmcpherson]

Just regarding liability issues, if students sign a form upon starting with a club declaring that they are aware of the possible injuries that can occur during sparring, plus they wear all the right protective gear and they dont spar student well above or below their level, then how can they take legal action if injured? Im not doubting they can because the world has gone mad and everybody is sueing everybody, but on what grounds do they win legally. I mean its not just MA clubs facing this problem, sports like rugby league, rugby union, cricket, soccer, american football (gridiron?) and many other sports have a high incidence of injury and would no doubt face the same problems and yet they are still able to play full contact and havent had to resort to "optional" tackling for intance. Im no lawyer, so Im just curious how this all works.

 

[granfire]

Just regarding liability issues, if students sign a form upon starting with a club declaring that they are aware of the possible injuries that can occur during sparring, plus they wear all the right protective gear and they dont spar student well above or below their level, then how can they take legal action if injured? Im not doubting they can because the world has gone mad and everybody is sueing everybody, but on what grounds do they win legally. I mean its not just MA clubs facing this problem, sports like rugby league, rugby union, cricket, soccer, american football (gridiron?) and many other sports have a high incidence of injury and would no doubt face the same problems and yet they are still able to play full contact and havent had to resort to "optional" tackling for intance. Im no lawyer, so Im just curious how this all works.

It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on.

Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.

It's not a MA problem, but across the board.

So many things that I experienced as a kid, a lifetime and continent away are just not smart anymore in this climate. Too many people try to blame somebody other than themselves for the problems in their lives.

That includes sparring, inviting a kid over to pet your ponies or taking your dog for a walk

Or just letting somebody on your property to cut across.

Insanity coers it pretty much to perfection.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on.

Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.

It's not a MA problem, but across the board.

So many things that I experienced as a kid, a lifetime and continent away are just not smart anymore in this climate. Too many people try to blame somebody other than themselves for the problems in their lives.

That includes sparring, inviting a kid over to pet your ponies or taking your dog for a walk

Or just letting somebody on your property to cut across.

Insanity coers it pretty much to perfection.

I agree, everybody just blames everybody else and tries to profit out of it. I just wonder why other contact sports are not just surviving but actaully flourishing currently. Junior numbers for league, union, AFL etc are all on the rise yet these are all full contact sports where usually one pretty major injury will occur each game and yet martial arts seems to have to be the odd one out and has to try to eradicate contact because of legal reasons despite the fact that major injuries occur a lot less in MA. I played league and union for 15 years and I could write a book on all the injuries I got and yet in my years of MA doing full cotact sparring I have suffered nowhere near the injuries sustained in other sports and yet we seem to be the ones concerned with "legal" ramifications.

 

[puunui]

It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on. Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.

If you have insurance, then you would forward the claim to the insurance company and they would take the steps necessary to defend and indemnify you. No difference really than if you rear ended someone in your car and the other side filed a claim or even a lawsuit against you. Different type of insurance, but the process is the same.

 

[mastercole]

OP here. US Taekwondo Center is the only school I've ever heard of doing this - hence my question to see if this is a trend, or just a business decision by GM Lee.

Some schools out in California I've heard are decreasing the amount of sparring they do because of insurance issues.

One thing I've heard, is that (again due to insurance) when sparring, students must wear every single piece of available protective padding available. Chest gear, head gear - possibly with face cage, foot pads, shin pads, knee pads, cup of course, hand pads, forearm pads, elbow pads...

When I was told this, I asked, can't you then just send your pads out to spar?.. You're wearing so much gear that you're practically invisible.. people must look like the Michelin Man. LOL

From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms. No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training. Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs. I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all. So you smarten up. Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments. Example:

6:00pm - 6:30pm Poomsae
6:30pm - 7:00pm Kwonbop
7:00pm - 7:30pm Athletic Development
7:30pm - 8:00pm Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)

Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.

Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together. 80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.

This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.

However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring. So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.

 

[granfire]

If you have insurance, then you would forward the claim to the insurance company and they would take the steps necessary to defend and indemnify you. No difference really than if you rear ended someone in your car and the other side filed a claim or even a lawsuit against you. Different type of insurance, but the process is the same.

And the insurance comes back to recoup their costs: Your rates go up.

 

[Balrog]

A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee. So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.

Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test. He said sparring is optional.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring. Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.

He also said they don't learn much about self defense.

So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?

Not my school, at least.

We do one-steps for the first six months to get the students used to the concepts of timing, distancing and control against a live target. After that, we put on the gear and have at it. It's a testing requirement from then on.

 

[ATACX GYM]

From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms. No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training. Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs. I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all. So you smarten up. Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments. Example:

6:00pm - 6:30pm Poomsae
6:30pm - 7:00pm Kwonbop
7:00pm - 7:30pm Athletic Development
7:30pm - 8:00pm Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)

Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.

Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together. 80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.

This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.

However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring. So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.

This is VERY much close to my personal experience.It's ASTOUNDING to me that someone would come to a martial art and NOT expect to be hit or to hit someone.That's like playing American football and NOT expecting to be tackled,or going into a boxing ring and not expecting to be punched.

I live in Long Beach CA,and the areas that I live in are rough and contiguous to other rough areas.I actually like it here...the people (while some of them can get rambunctious and rowdy) are much more straightforward. They want the real deal impact martial arts.Unfortunately,they can't pay that much at all but what they CAN pay? They will.For the most part,anyway.

Right next to my house--I mean a ten minute walk TOPS--is a beautiful artsy area known as East Village or The Village.Lots of artistic types there...musicians,yoga,artists of all stripes and caliber,tony clothing shops,environmental awareness pervades everything from store products to vehicles,antique shops,wonderful schools,the works.

A brace of Villagers came by to my class one time because I participated in a capoeira roda hosted by my capoeira mestre and they loved how I moved,and kept asking me why my movements were sharply different even than my mestre's movements,and my response was:"I actually fight with my techniques.I make contact.I approach capoeira as the martial art it is FIRST,and the artistic cultural expression SECOND." They were all smiles and nods and "Yeah that's COOL" when I verbalized my position to them.

They came by,and one of my students--Vanessa--caught a street kid and gang member named Dino (pronounced "Dean-o") with a hard side kick to his thigh,then feinted low with the lead side kick,popped him across the jaw and stomach with a jumping high side kick-back kick combination (complete with a loup kiyap,you shoulda seen the startle reflex of passersby lolol),and when he hit the ground she stomped on his thigh,front kicked his chest again and when he grabbed her leg with his arms? She spun into an armbar. He tapped.Took maybe 5 seconds top to bottom.Regular stuff,right?

All of The Villagers were like:"OOOHHHHH!!" and 2 of them (a guy and a girl) seemed ready to take the next step and join my class.But one of them--a strawberry blond--looked me dead in the eye and said:"I'd sue your *** if that happened to me." The remaining 5-6 Villagers who weren't the guy and the girl plying me with questions about class fees and schedules were like:"yeeeaaaahhh that looks ****in hardcore,I could get hurt..."

Jesus Christ. What is this...Diary of A Bunch Of Wimpy Adults?

Somebody asked earlier about the proliferation and thriving of contact sports like American football,basketball (lotsa body contact when jockeying for position under the hoop),boxing and the like. The answer is? In THOSE sports, a lot more people are EXPECTING high contact level. In fact? The contact level tends to drive the kinds of people who like contact to them.Same with bjj and judo and Muay Thai kickboxing (NOT cardio kickboxing,I said MUAY THAI) etc. But there's been such a marketing emphasis on "you can do this and not get hit" regarding martial arts like taekwondo,kenpo,shaolin kempo,etc.--the Mcdojangification of TKD in short--that the expectations of parents are NOT AT ALL in accordance with what the martial reality of an art like TKD is.If you think Johnny shouldn't learn boxing because he might get punched in the face? Well hey TKD is gonna KICK Johnny in the face.Maybe you and Johnny need to spray yourselves with a heavy dose of "Wimp Begone" aerosol,buckle down and get in there.

Remember when I said that I could make a killing if I diluted my martial arts training and made it oriented toward money and fitness? I could go from my mere 15-20 or so Gym students to about 120 in 4 months and about 200 in about a year if I emphasized my fitness and noncontact training methods over the contact aspects. Imagine Taebo with alot more Tae in it,along with sport specific drills that get you in good shape fast...and imagine how much confidence you'd have in your newfound fitness.Yaaaayyy you.Then Bad Guy Number Nine sees that you have cool stuff and you're fit but you have VICTIM stamped on your forehead? And you're the next disappeared person we see on TV. Not with me,folks. I know for a fact that every single one of my students can defend themselves AND they're in TERRIFIC shape.They do better in school,socially,at work,and Lord help any BG that rolls on them on the street.This is invaluable to me.It cannot be bought or purchased or bartered.

Remember those news stories of "black belts" being killed in h2h combat by some criminal or the times we've seen on the news "black belts" being killed or badly injured by some knife wielding miscreant? Remember that time a few years back in California that black belt saw a group of guys beating on a guy and his gf and tried to intervene and got badly beaten for it? I recall numerous news shoes of female "black belts" being robbed beaten RAPED and sometimes murdered. Now...how would you like to be the instructor whose methods failed to keep your students safe under those circumstances? What impact do you think it would have on your school,your business' reputation,on YOUR reputation? And just as horrific,what if you go the other way and become some kind of modern day Kobra-Kai Quicksilver dude from Karate Kid 3?

No thanks. I have to sleep at night. I have to look at myself in the morning,and I need to like that guy looking back at me in the mirror because he's everything he says he is and even when he fails? He's trying to do what he thinks is right more times than not. I have children. I swear to God I'd machete chop somebody who sold my kid a bill of goods that got them hurt or killed...and I paid $10,000 dollars for over the years from their progression from white to black and their tournaments and gear and T-shirts and patches and videos and stuff. It'd be machete time too if some fool turned my kid into a brutal fighting machine victimizing others at a whim.(Of course,I teach my kids martial arts,so this doesn't apply to me personally...)

Bottom line? When it's crunch time,your students need to not be the ones getting crunched.The way to span the gap between the "no contact" types and the "full on" self defense practitioners would be to introduce combat drills with light to moderate contact (like mitt work drills and kicking drills and paddle drills that combine kicking and punching and realistic movement) because these drills also tend to foster (as the student participates in it) a more aggressive mindset. Imagine if you took a drill like this:

http://youtu.be/DdF-iHrQuKA


combined it with a drill like this:

http://youtu.be/Dd5B-KBe6eQ

And keep it all through progressive Aliveness,introduction of the tech,isolation of the tech so you can get good with it,then integration of the tech into the rest of your arsenal.Principly something like this in concept:

http://youtu.be/imjmLWj5WCU

and let the person holding the paddle throw a punch and kick back at their partner say at head and body level of their partner kicking the paddles but only at half speed? And you had to block them? I've been doing this for more than a decade now. Even the noncontact people would be able to deal with that. This cultivates a more realistic mindset that in a month or two translates rather easily into stepped up drills and then to sparring and even successfully fighting against the average (untrained) street thug.It's safe,fun,a terrific workout,nobody gets hurt but everybody has o defend against shots coming back at you...and you build their confidence so that they eventually WILL spar.Even when they don't know they're doing it.Lol. Same thing with weapons training. Give them combative drills with hard padded weapons,and after a month or two of gradually stepping it up? They'll be ready for light to moderate contact. About 2 months of light contact and they'll be able to pick it up even more.

But even if they DON'T want to pick it up and want to stay light to moderate contact with stepped up drills? They will have the experience,the conditioning and sparring background to defend themselves vs an attack much better than if they hadn't.They'll also be in 3 times better shape than previously,and their mindsets will be purged of the rampant cowardice that prevents them from looking deeply within their own souls and rooting out this senseless fear of contact...and realize that they're MUCH BETTER FOR THE EXPERIENCE. If you can convert say 5 of the previously "noncontact" crowd into the "contact" crowd? They'll bring over more and more of the "noncontact" butterflies.

This is the approach I'm currently fine tuning as an acceptable alternative,a bridge,between us old skool genuine self-defense oriented,life long martial artists and those newbies who are of the "air jump rope" crowd; the "noncontact" crowd.

 

[mastercole]

Remember when I said that I could make a killing if I diluted my martial arts training and made it oriented toward money and fitness? I could go from my mere 15-20 or so Gym students to about 120 in 4 months and about 200 in about a year if I emphasized my fitness and noncontact training methods over the contact aspects.

You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen? Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students. Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.

Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.

As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble. If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney

That's what I do.

 

[granfire]

You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen? Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students. Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.

Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.

As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble. If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney

That's what I do.

No he won't.

The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.

 

[puunui]

Then the optional sparring. I call that a trend. But you knew that. You have read enough stuff to notice how the art id being wittled away from. Much of it has to do with the simple fact that we are not soldiers in need of lose combat tactics, but every day Joes and Janes with day jobs and responsibilities.

I might have known it, but chrispillertkd needed to hear it from you.

 

[granfire]

I might have known it, but chrispillertkd needed to hear it from you.

I think he heard what I had to say loud and clear the first time I said it.
I think you needed the confirmation more than he did.

 

[puunui]

The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.

So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?

 

[puunui]

I think you needed the confirmation more than he did.

I know what's going on out there. You even said so. It doesn't take much to see where things are going. Things have been heading in that direction for a long time, wouldn't you agree?

 

[TaekwondoDad]

From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms. No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training. Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs. I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all. So you smarten up. Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments. Example:

6:00pm - 6:30pm Poomsae
6:30pm - 7:00pm Kwonbop
7:00pm - 7:30pm Athletic Development
7:30pm - 8:00pm Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)

Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.

Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together. 80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.

This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.

However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring. So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.

Master Cole,

This surprises me. From everything I'd heard, you still have a reputation as being a sparring school

 

[ATACX GYM]

You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen? Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students. Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.

Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.

As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble. If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney

That's what I do.

I very much respect your thoughts and opinions on this matter,Master Cole. I'm aware that your schools are a financial success and I definitely want that,and it's my understanding that your school is a sparring school...or has been for so long that you still bear the reputation of a sparring school. My questions are: How can I make drills that are completely safe and will attract the hundred or so students that are in the area (mostly kids) but won't compromise the self-defense aspects or my hardcore students? I'm thinking that I may offer programs that offer more of the emphasis on the calisthenics,rolls,jumps drills and poomsae as an option (ATHLETIKICK or something,lol). And maybe have a demo team too...along with our already feared fight team. But...there has to be a corresponding justification for the hardcore athletes to even attend a school like that,ESPECIALLY if the reason that they came in the first place is BECAUSE it's hardcore. These hardcore students are EXTRA LOYAL too,whereas the fitness types? Not so much.

So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?

The hard core competitiors and self-defense peeps are pretty much the same crowd...with basically more weapons play and more lethal options in the self-defense crowd that the competitiors appreciate too,just not as much as the competition circuit. The converse is true from the self-defense crowd. They are few and far between,but these are the people who will be my black belts and instructors who will proliferate THE ATACX GYM martial style (along with my kids).

The problem is? We need the financial security of the 300-600 non-hardcore crowd of people. I can get these people in shape quite easily,but I don't want to sacrifice the people who've been there through thick and thin with me in order to cater to a crowd that IS a crowd with all of the financial importance thereof...but they're a revolving door crowd.They're wimpier. They're more litigious by far. They'll stay for like 2-3 belts and then lose their interest...not because it's not interesting but because they're not staying long enough to develope the fortitude to stick it through to instructor rank.

Cardio kickboxing and stuff will still getcha butt kicked. Those programs fit better in places like Bally's which don't intrinsically carry the mandate for self-defense within the title of what they do but we martial artists DO carry such a mandate,imho.If we offer such an option? I think that it should be welded with at least light impact real world self defense,even if we have to trick the clientele into doing so via drills that ALSO get you in terrific shape. Master Cole,in your opinion,would such an approach work? I've done it but only with the "hardcore" crowd. All I know is that I absolutely absolutely absolutely AB-SO-LUUUTELY canNOT be that guy who taught his students "martial FITNESS" instead of martial ARTS and have my students get hurt or worse on the street because they can't defend themselves. This is my absolute nightmare.

 

[mastercole]

No he won't.

The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.

That has not been my experience.

The hard core training folks love the nice training facility and all that extra cash to go train in other states, and other countries with other like minded people. And they feel very special knowing that they are part of an elite few.

 

[mastercole]

So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?

I cater to both to small boat vehicle people and the large boat vehicle people.

I also explain to the self defense crowd, with a fist to the jaw and a foot to the face that enlightenment is found in the companionship of hard core competitors Hard core self defense and hard core competition is one in the same.

 

[mastercole]

Master Cole,

This surprises me. From everything I'd heard, you still have a reputation as being a sparring school

Families love Taekwondo and pretty much it's all families that join these days, which is great. So we have to present Taekwondo in a way that is beneficial for families. Some of those family members are beginning to train in the weekend sessions, which is amazing.

But like I said, we still have intense hard sparring training every weekend, but that is not on a printed schedule.

 

[granfire]

That has not been my experience.

The hard core training folks love the nice training facility and all that extra cash to go train in other states, and other countries with other like minded people. And they feel very special knowing that they are part of an elite few.

I suppose it depends on the market.