TKD school - sparring optional?

[puunui]

I believe in no sparring training. In fact my schedule has that right after my swimming lessons where we never go in the water. But I bet if we ever get wet we'll be really great swimmers!

Believe it or not, there are some people out there who will pay big money to take dry land swimming lessons, just as long as they never have to get in the water if they don't want to. They don't care if they can actually swim or not. They just like taking lessons.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In a bad economy, President Lee's 29 year old son, who basically runs the three dojang owned by his father, just bought a brand new, 5 or 6 bedroom house for about a half million. He did it by having over a thousand students. They also own at least two of the three buildings in which the dojang are located. I seriously don't think they care if you haven't heard of a school with optional or no free sparring. It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now. The days of paying $50 a month to train in a carpeted warehouse is over.

What kind of house did you own when you were 29, and how many students did you have?

It's awesome that he's able to buy a $500K house in a bad economy. If not teaching free sparring to some of his students is beneficial economically for him then more power to him. People are free to teach as much, or as little, of Taekwon-Do as they wish and make as much or as little of it mandatory for their students.

As for whether or not GM Sang Lee and his son care about my opinion, that's irrelevant. This is a public bulletin board and the original poster asked some questions, which I answered.

I would be very interested in seeing some actual statistics for teaching free sparring optionally for U.S. schools if you're going to claim, without qualification, "It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now."

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

I would be very interested in seeing some actual statistics for teaching free sparring optionally for U.S. schools if you're going to claim, without qualification, "It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now."

Go attend any of the martial art business seminars that are frequently hosted. It has been advocated there for a while now. Seems like the largest schools are all converting to no sparring or optional sparring. Attendance at USTU events for combined Nationals and JOs was about 7500 competitors. Now attendance is so poor USAT had to combine the two into one long event, with maybe 2500 competitors, a 67% drop. Alaska alone used to send 700 competitors. I would be surprised if they still send 100 or even 50 now. Here, only a few schools send students to state and especially national competition. Tournaments are shrinking or ending altogether. Like I said, it's what's been going on for a while now.

Instructors still have students buy sparring equipment, which they wear during sparring oriented classes. They just aren't forced to spar anymore.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Go attend any of the martial art business seminars that are frequently hosted. It has been advocated there for a while now. Seems like the largest schools are all converting to no sparring or optional sparring.

Attendance at USTU events for combined Nationals and JOs was about 7500 competitors. Now attendance is so poor USAT had to combine the two into one long event, with maybe 2500 competitors, a 67% drop. Alaska alone used to send 700 competitors. I would be surprised if they still send 100 or even 50 now. Here, only a few schools send students to state and especially national competition. Tournaments are shrinking or ending altogether. Like I said, it's what's been going on for a while now.

It may well seem to you like the largest schools are going the optional free sparring route. But if there are any figures on how many schools, or what percentage of them, attend MA business seminars and how many of those implement the suggestion to stop teaching free sparring I would like to see them. Without those all one can honestly say is that according to your anecdotal evidence USTU events (and now, perhaps, USAT ones?) have seen a decrease in competitors. One would have to do quite a bit of research to get information on the cause of this decrease. Even if the school owners you have talked to have said they don't require their students to learn free sparring that doesn't mean a statistically significant number of them have changed their teaching methods. Since correlation isn't the same thing as causation it's possible that there's some other variable causing the decrease in tournament attendence that you mentioned.

Even if you're going to use the organizations and events that you've mentioned as the population you're going to study then all you can say about the results of your research is that it applies to those organizations, not to Taekwon-Do schools as a whole (even less could one say it applies to martial arts schools as a whole). It's why I said in my post that "n my experience, no." I then further qualified it by saying "[n]o ITF schools I am familiar with" have free sparring as an option.

Pax,

Chris

 

[granfire]

I have been told the former ITA has started going the route of optional sparring.

Granted I have been out of the loop for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing.

I see the benefits of carefully introducing the students to sparring.
Especially women tend to be timid about it, not to say scared. I saw that as one of my most important job as a sr belt to make sure they had a good time in the beginning so they could grow.

There is a huge difference between pummeling 'BOB' and actually getting hit back.
And the contact level is low to medium in ITA rules.

 

[puunui]

It may well seem to you like the largest schools are going the optional free sparring route. But if there are any figures on how many schools, or what percentage of them, attend MA business seminars and how many of those implement the suggestion to stop teaching free sparring I would like to see them. Without those all one can honestly say is that according to your anecdotal evidence USTU events (and now, perhaps, USAT ones?) have seen a decrease in competitors. One would have to do quite a bit of research to get information on the cause of this decrease. Even if the school owners you have talked to have said they don't require their students to learn free sparring that doesn't mean a statistically significant number of them have changed their teaching methods. Since correlation isn't the same thing as causation it's possible that there's some other variable causing the decrease in tournament attendence that you mentioned.

If you say so. But the trend is pretty obvious to me and has been for quite a while.

 

[puunui]

I have been told the former ITA has started going the route of optional sparring. Granted I have been out of the loop for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing.

Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.

Actually, Glenn, granfire's post makes quite a bit of sense. Granfire said they were "told the former ITA was going the route of optional sparring." That's just a report of what they were told by someone else, not a claim about a general trend in all Taekwon-Do schools, or even all martial arts schools, in the country.

Not even the second sentence "Granted I have been out of the loop [of the ITA I presume since, IIRC, granfire is no longer an ITA member] for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing" can be taken as trying to "prove" anything. It's just a reaction to what they were told by someone else.

Pax,

Chris

 

[oftheherd1]

I think it's worse. Why? Mainly because you might build up some confidence that you can move and strike well, yet you never get the real acid test of what happens to your composure when someone nails you back, possibly with a good deal of force.

I mentioned in another thread that in the mid-60s, when I studied with Jhoon Goo Rhee, Tae Kwon Do and Karate required a full strength punch or kick, with sufficient control to stop before contact. It wasn't a sport then either. You were just expected to have that much control.

The idea was that if you had sufficient control that you could stop an eighth to quarter inch from someone, if the need arose, you could stop one or two inches inside at well. But I can see some advantages to padded contact, as long as the control isn't lost.

 

[granfire]

Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.

Didn't say it did.

But it's another puzzle in the over all trend we seem to see.
We gamers call it 'nerfing'

 

[Earl Weiss]

I mentioned in another thread that in the mid-60s, when I studied with Jhoon Goo Rhee, Tae Kwon Do and Karate required a full strength punch or kick, with sufficient control to stop before contact. It wasn't a sport then either. You were just expected to have that much control.

The idea was that if you had sufficient control that you could stop an eighth to quarter inch from someone, if the need arose, you could stop one or two inches inside at well. But I can see some advantages to padded contact, as long as the control isn't lost.

See post #20.

I had a lineage that involved this long ago. Same as Jhoon Rhee since my instructor was with Han Cha Kyo when I started. We believed all that ful power cr*p. Then we did contact sparring.
One of the realities was as Mike Tyson Put it: everyone has a plan, ... then they get punched in the face."
Anyone not sparring should have the cajones to call what they do "Tae Bo"

 

[puunui]

Actually, Glenn, granfire's post makes quite a bit of sense. Granfire said they were "told the former ITA was going the route of optional sparring." That's just a report of what they were told by someone else, not a claim about a general trend in all Taekwon-Do schools, or even all martial arts schools, in the country.

Not even the second sentence "Granted I have been out of the loop [of the ITA I presume since, IIRC, granfire is no longer an ITA member] for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing" can be taken as trying to "prove" anything. It's just a reaction to what they were told by someone else.

Pax,

Chris

Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?

 

[puunui]

But it's another puzzle in the over all trend we seem to see.
We gamers call it 'nerfing'

Which overall trend, the one where dojang or even entire organizations are going to optional sparring?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?

I think she meant the trend that the ITA is apparently making sparring optional. You could ask her yourself if you're unsure about what she meant.

As for Taekwon-Do vs. Taekwondo, the word is a transliteration of hangul. Unless you take the various English spellings to denote different martial arts it's simply a matter of taste how you spell it.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you say so. But the trend is pretty obvious to me and has been for quite a while.

Not over here or in many other places for that matter. You should get out more. Unless you can show actual stats then its just your opinion.

 

[granfire]

Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?

They call it 'Tiger Rock Martial Arts'

You know good and well 'The Trend': teach less, demand less, but charge the same or more.
In the ITA case it went together with some fancy name changes.

At one time the organization demanded 2 forms per BB rank, shriveled to 1
They had a BB camp that legendary (crawl through mud, work out til you puke)
I never got around to do 'Green Belt Camp', a day of amped up workouts with the regions instructors. Around lunch time the kids were pooped and really good to have.

Now they implemented half forms for Junior color belts. That was an interesting move. Especially since the 1st half of the forms is seldom the problem, you start out often enough, but I was told it improved the technique. (I am tking that with a truck load of salt though, I worked with enough kids to doubt that statement)

Then the optional sparring.

I call that a trend. But you knew that. You have read enough stuff to notice how the art id being wittled away from. Much of it has to do with the simple fact that we are not soldiers in need of lose combat tactics, but every day Joes and Janes with day jobs and responsibilities.
Some of the other things that are being cut you can just wonder.

 

[tinker1]

OP here. US Taekwondo Center is the only school I've ever heard of doing this - hence my question to see if this is a trend, or just a business decision by GM Lee.

Some schools out in California I've heard are decreasing the amount of sparring they do because of insurance issues.

One thing I've heard, is that (again due to insurance) when sparring, students must wear every single piece of available protective padding available. Chest gear, head gear - possibly with face cage, foot pads, shin pads, knee pads, cup of course, hand pads, forearm pads, elbow pads...

When I was told this, I asked, can't you then just send your pads out to spar?.. You're wearing so much gear that you're practically invisible.. people must look like the Michelin Man. LOL

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ive just made some calls to friends who do Kukkiwon tkd and rhee tkd and some other independents and none have ever heard of "optional" sparring. I dont know if its just something happening in the US but its definetely not creeping in over here from what I see. My brothers live in europe and have also never heard of optional sparring, so it sounds like a very rare concept to me. Sparring is a major grading requirement in most schools so it doesnt make much sense.

 

[granfire]

Ive just made some calls to friends who do Kukkiwon tkd and rhee tkd and some other independents and none have ever heard of "optional" sparring. I dont know if its just something happening in the US but its definetely not creeping in over here from what I see. My brothers live in europe and have also never heard of optional sparring, so it sounds like a very rare concept to me. Sparring is a major grading requirement in most schools so it doesnt make much sense.

Dance a jig and praise the heavens

Maybe it is just that liability issues are strangling.
Not sure if it is really and actual issue, but the fear of getting dragged to court is stifling.
It keeps a lot of people from doing what is right in favor of what is safe.

 

[ATACX GYM]

A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee. So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.

Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test. He said sparring is optional.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring. Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.

He also said they don't learn much about self defense.

So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?

Those are Mcdojangs as you well know,and they proliferate with alarming rapidity.I teach TKD as part of my curriculum and you can bet your roundhouse kick that you better spar with us.Lots.And use your hands AND feet.Lots. I could make lots more money than I currently am but I'm being sure to keep the quality of the instruction high by focusing on turning out qualified skilled knowledgeable clean strong of character instructors of appropriate rank (3rd dan) first. I could make a killing by marketing my approach more lucratively,but that would poison and kill the very arts that I love and which put me in this position in the first place.No thanks. Quality AND quantity for me,thanks.Quality first.

Dance a jig and praise the heavens

Maybe it is just that liability issues are strangling.
Not sure if it is really and actual issue, but the fear of getting dragged to court is stifling.
It keeps a lot of people from doing what is right in favor of what is safe.

Liability issues are KILLERS for many many of us in the U.S. who're martial artists and businessmen. Especially in litigious states like my state of California.