TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Kong Soo Do]

I think my training was more similar to the WWII era than what goes on in many dojos today (often less focus on the ground work today than I experienced). My instructor was of that era (and pretty traditional), and we used the gi heavily in throws, locks, and chokes. But all that was easy to translate to NOT grabbing the gi so often.

It's only easy to translate, under stress/duress, if you've trained that way consistently. If a student uses the gi heavily in training it is not reasonable to expect them to do something else in the heat of a confrontation. How you train is how you react under stress. As I've discussed before, L.E. training and military circles have know this for decades which is why training has had to adapt. If the Judo training didn't rely on a gi, or any specific clothing for that matter and if it was trained with a methodology of an actual attack with a violent aggressor rather than match with an opponent then it could be a useful tool. Same with any martial art of course.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's only easy to translate, under stress/duress, if you've trained that way consistently. If a student uses the gi heavily in training it is not reasonable to expect them to do something else in the heat of a confrontation. How you train is how you react under stress. As I've discussed before, L.E. training and military circles have know this for decades which is why training has had to adapt. If the Judo training didn't rely on a gi, or any specific clothing for that matter and if it was trained with a methodology of an actual attack with a violent aggressor rather than match with an opponent then it could be a useful tool. Same with any martial art of course.

Agreed. That’s why I think he’s talking about the training, rather than the techniques.

 

[DaveB]

See the only difference is really the last one. And even that changes via rule sets. So they can catch in ours if they want.

All these other factors occur everywhere.

You can't throw a tornado kick anywhere if you slip over or don't have the space.

If you can't push a guy backwards. You can't push him backwards.

These mechanics just occur. Suggesting there are these impossible street physics just isn't real.

They generate like a superstition. And quite often have as much validity.

Except that they don't occur in a sport only environment. When have you ever trained tkd on wet grass.

And yes the ruleset makes a big difference, but that's also the point. Not every ma is mma. And even mma isn't real life.

 

[Steve]

Except that they don't occur in a sport only environment. When have you ever trained tkd on wet grass.

And yes the ruleset makes a big difference, but that's also the point. Not every ma is mma. And even mma isn't real life.

Nothing is the same as real life except real life, and the thing about real life is that it's never the same twice.

 

[DaveB]

Nothing is the same as real life except real life, and the thing about real life is that it's never the same twice.

Agreed. So while sport training is great, and a permissive rule set a great simulator for certain things, it is pretty plain that the nature of sport, where matches and environment are kept as fair and free from obstacles as possible, has it's limitations if your goals are self defence.

 

[skribs]

At the same time, nobody trains to better read people during a fight than sports fighters. Most of the "traditional XYZ grand master fights MMA fighter" videos I've seen online feature a traditional martial artist who hasn't been punched in 30 years, and as soon as the MMA fighter gets one hit in, it's over. The sports fighters are more conditioned to hitting, being hit, and having things not go according to plan.

Taekwondo is particularly restrictive on the sport side, so it probably translates less to an actual fight. However, that's just the sport of Taekwondo. Any TKD school I've ever been to has taught techniques and tactics not allowed in the sport, which are to be used in the street.

 

[drop bear]

Again, needs to be taken into context of the era in which O'Neill lived. There is a reason that the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka dismissed Judo as viable for a combative. Can Judo be morphed so that some of it is useful for SD? Sure. But SD isn't the original purpose/goal/methodology of Judo. Now one can reverse engineer Judo back to AJJ which can be quite useful for SD providing that's what it's geared towards.

Story based.

I will stick with a self defence system that can make its own case based on evidence.

If ballet, yoga, aromatherapy were out there on YouTube winning fights on the street. That would be the system I would be looking at.

"Designed for" is a marketing tool.

 

[drop bear]

Except that they don't occur in a sport only environment. When have you ever trained tkd on wet grass.

And yes the ruleset makes a big difference, but that's also the point. Not every ma is mma. And even mma isn't real life.

I have fought guys on wet grass. You don't slip over because you tried a tornado kick. You slip over because it is slippery. I have slipped over throwing punches.

I slipped over once because I was trying to double leg a guy in a street fight and one of my friends pushed me from behind. Because he was also trying to bash the guy.

I have slipped over in the gym as well. So am I training for the street or sport there?

Where exactly does this script you are using come from?

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. So while sport training is great, and a permissive rule set a great simulator for certain things, it is pretty plain that the nature of sport, where matches and environment are kept as fair and free from obstacles as possible, has it's limitations if your goals are self defence.

Pretty much has to be the starting point though. Or some sort of practical and functional method of finding out the difference between what should happen and what does happen.

 

[skribs]

I have fought guys on wet grass. You don't slip over because you tried a tornado kick. You slip over because it is slippery. I have slipped over throwing punches.

I slipped over once because I was trying to double leg a guy in a street fight and one of my friends pushed me from behind. Because he was also trying to bash the guy.

I have slipped over in the gym as well. So am I training for the street or sport there?

Where exactly does this script you are using come from?

You're more likely to slip when you're spinning around on one foot than when you're standing on 2 feet.

I've been kicked in the head with my guard up. Does that mean I shouldn't keep my guard up because I can still get kicked anyway?

 

[drop bear]

You're more likely to slip when you're spinning around on one foot than when you're standing on 2 feet.

I've been kicked in the head with my guard up. Does that mean I shouldn't keep my guard up because I can still get kicked anyway?

If it was evidence of the street. Then that one incident would define your training.

Even if it didn't happen.

 

[JR 137]

Sport MA, including MMA has its inherent flaws. So does non-sport MA. So does a blended MA, if you will, like say Kyokushin where it is bare knuckle and hard contact regardless of if the practitioner is competing or not.

Everything has its flaws. It’s on the practitioner to weight the inherent flaws vs benefits to determine if the path he’s chosen is the one that’ll get him where he’s looking to go.

Anything that has true resistance is an asset, regardless of if that resistance is from competition or partners. The amount of asset is subject to debate though. Even tap-tap point fighting has resistance, in that the opponent is going along with you and letting you have your way with him. Point fighting has its inherent flaws, but it’s still got the aspects of not letting you think you can walk up and punch anyone in the face and knock them out at will. At least it teaches you you’re going to get hit back, even if the allowable contact is very unrealistically light, you can still put two and two together.

The key is resistance. Within reason and with appropriate progression, the more the better.

 

[JR 137]

At the same time, nobody trains to better read people during a fight than sports fighters. Most of the "traditional XYZ grand master fights MMA fighter" videos I've seen online feature a traditional martial artist who hasn't been punched in 30 years, and as soon as the MMA fighter gets one hit in, it's over. The sports fighters are more conditioned to hitting, being hit, and having things not go according to plan.

Taekwondo is particularly restrictive on the sport side, so it probably translates less to an actual fight. However, that's just the sport of Taekwondo. Any TKD school I've ever been to has taught techniques and tactics not allowed in the sport, which are to be used in the street.

Is it just me, or is it always XYZ Grandmaster is 80 years old and MMA fighter is a 20-something year old active competitor? Skews the odds a bit. And if it’s a 20-30 something year old grandmaster, they’re pretty much guaranteed to be a fraud.

But yeah, if you don’t actually hit and get hit, you’re not going to fare well when someone’s willing to actually hit you and get hit. More so theory vs practice at work than anything else IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is it just me, or is it always XYZ Grandmaster is 80 years old and MMA fighter is a 20-something year old active competitor? Skews the odds a bit. And if it’s a 20-30 something year old grandmaster, they’re pretty much guaranteed to be a fraud.

But yeah, if you don’t actually hit and get hit, you’re not going to fare well when someone’s willing to actually hit you and get hit. More so theory vs practice at work than anything else IMO.

Some of that comes from the myth in TMA that the older, wiser practitioners are the most deadly. I wish that were true. I'm probably more able to do damage than I was at 30, certainly more than I was at 20. But in 10 years, I likely won't be capable of what I can do today - I'm probably near the zenith of my fighting ability right now. If you matched me up against someone who trained (seriously) for MMA, I'd have problems, because I don't train that hard. My training at 30 was probably similarly intense, but with less resistance. My training now is definitely softer, mostly out of necessity.

 

[Steve]

Agreed. So while sport training is great, and a permissive rule set a great simulator for certain things, it is pretty plain that the nature of sport, where matches and environment are kept as fair and free from obstacles as possible, has it's limitations if your goals are self defence.

All training has limitations, as does all application. The answer isn’t to give up on application. If you aren’t a cop, bouncer or assassin, sport is a terrific application of skill. Shoot, even if you are a cop or a bouncer, it’s a great way to build skill.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nothing is the same as real life except real life, and the thing about real life is that it's never the same twice.

Except for Ground Hog Day...

 

[Paul_D]

Agreed. So while sport training is great, and a permissive rule set a great simulator for certain things, it is pretty plain that the nature of sport, where matches and environment are kept as fair and free from obstacles as possible, has it's limitations if your goals are self defence.

You'd think it would be pretty plain yes, but guess what

At the same time, nobody trains to better read people during a fight than sports fighters.

Are you trying to suggest that you wile have time to read people during a SD encounter ?

 

[DaveB]

I have fought guys on wet grass. You don't slip over because you tried a tornado kick. You slip over because it is slippery. I have slipped over throwing punches.

I slipped over once because I was trying to double leg a guy in a street fight and one of my friends pushed me from behind. Because he was also trying to bash the guy.

I have slipped over in the gym as well. So am I training for the street or sport there?

Where exactly does this script you are using come from?

Experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you trying to suggest that you wile have time to read people during a SD encounter ?

In some of them, yes.

 

[Paul_D]

In some of them, yes.

Skribs answered that without moving his lips