TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[drop bear]

I get the impression that you train beginners by throwing them into an octagon to face a world champion in bare knuckle death match.

Where you saw compliant drills, I saw a bunch of first timers being given a taster session.

I've done a bit of kravesque training and once basic technique was established we turned up the resistance to as close to full as we could get. Maybe I'm unique, and sure, raw noobs might not be confident to do that, but I have always taken increased pressure in drills as the norm.

It seriously beggars belief that anyone who trains regularly would sit with beginner level compliance and resistance.

You got a video? Or are we taking in to account all the evidence we don't have.

When you train with resistance does it look like MMA? Do you ever wonder why that is?

If someone wanted to actually fight they would face an Australian champion. If they were just training for self defence we would go easier on them.

Instructor training.

p4 testing.

 

[drop bear]

Most students simply follow the training methods provided in a program.

The grading trap?

 

[DaveB]

You got a video? Or are we taking in to account all the evidence we don't have.

When you train with resistance does it look like MMA? Do you ever wonder why that is?

If someone wanted to actually fight they would face an Australian champion. If they were just training for self defence we would go easier on them.

Instructor training.

p4 testing.

A video? Am I on trial for something??

I'm niether defending Krav nor disagreeing with you. I just find it hard to believe that people who train regularly don't eventually turn up the resistance.

The main problem I see in the videos is that most of their technique sucks. This makes sense from what I understand about KM in that I believe it is often trained through building on base responses and they go straight into drills without much time spent on good ol basics.

The drills themselves seem mostly fine, they just need to turn it up.

Do you believe that you can build effective ability to defend yourself with these types of situational partner drills?

The last thing I'll say is the same thing I always say: bad training is bad training, it is not the same as a bad martial art.

 

[drop bear]

A video? Am I on trial for something??

I'm niether defending Krav nor disagreeing with you. I just find it hard to believe that people who train regularly don't eventually turn up the resistance.

The main problem I see in the videos is that most of their technique sucks. This makes sense from what I understand about KM in that I believe it is often trained through building on base responses and they go straight into drills without much time spent on good ol basics.

The drills themselves seem mostly fine, they just need to turn it up.

Do you believe that you can build effective ability to defend yourself with these types of situational partner drills?

The last thing I'll say is the same thing I always say: bad training is bad training, it is not the same as a bad martial art.

They won't get very far with those drills. It doesn't matter if they turn it up or have precise technique. The technique on a resisting guy is different to the technique on a non resisting guy. When you drill you simulate the resistance. So I do pads I will move as if he is punching back and I do this from having experience with a person who is fighting back.

The videos are trained backwards where they do the drill and then hope it works in real time.

In this sort of training it is the individual not the system because the system is not really having much of an effect.

To have the argument about bad training we would have to show good training or it really is the martial art.

 

[drop bear]

The problem is we all kind of want martial arts to work the way we wish it would.

Size wouldn't matter. We wouldn't need to dedicate time to fitness. Trained guys could just handle untrained guys. Knives and multiple opponents would be able to be handled.

We could just knock out the alpha male and his friends would just run away. Rather than stomping your guts out.

I mean you go to a store and look at weight loss products and see how much time effort and money we will spend avoiding the reality of our situations.

It is no small wonder martial arts is how it is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well yeah. But a lot of things wont work if that grab is latched on. Even the defences that do work, dont work very well.

But we have to come up with a way it works or otherwise people think their martial arts doesnt work.

Knife vs unarmed, multiple attackers, just a guy who can really punch. All these scenarios people feel they have to get an instant result to.

Yeah, and all are things that should fail more often than they do in the dojo. Part of what I've been working on is how to train students to the right level of resistance (for their partner, for the exercise at hand, for safety, and for the technique). I find that even my students sometimes fall down when I'm halfway through a technique, and I have to remind them that they shouldn't fall down until I make them - even when we are doing a compliant drill. Some get that better than others, apparently.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It seriously beggars belief that anyone who trains regularly would sit with beginner level compliance and resistance.

It does happen.

 

[DaveB]

Back on the thread topic, I just watched a Michael "Venom" Page fight. I don't know his background, but one could argue that he is essentially doing tkd in full contact fighting. Just with more flair.

 

[drop bear]

Back on the thread topic, I just watched a Michael "Venom" Page fight. I don't know his background, but one could argue that he is essentially doing tkd in full contact fighting. Just with more flair.

There are not that many people who can pull off MVP style fighting.

We have a guy who boxes like prince amir. And we beat the piss out of him.

Then look at moontasari. Who is a much better example of TKD in the ufc.

 

[DaveB]

There are not that many people who can pull off MVP style fighting.

We have a guy who boxes like prince amir. And we beat the piss out of him.

Then look at moontasari. Who is a much better example of TKD in the ufc.

Of course few can fight like him. Fight orthodoxy says it shouldn't work so nobody trains to fight like that.

it's why when we do see the highly unorthodox fighters they often come with massive personalities and borderline arrogance. They have had to spend years ignoring people who say their ideas won't work, analysing the how and why until they are experts in their own system as well as the orthodoxy they have trained to overcome.

It takes a lot of vision discipline and self confidence to stand out from the crowd like that.

 

[TrueJim]

 

[andyjeffries]

I completely agree with @TrueJim, I always tell my black belts - don't worry about getting injured while sparring with other black belts (even from other clubs), worry about sparring with white and yellow belts because they're so awkward you'll pick up more injuries there.

 

[DaveB]

I completely agree with @TrueJim, I always tell my black belts - don't worry about getting injured while sparring with other black belts (even from other clubs), worry about sparring with white and yellow belts because they're so awkward you'll pick up more injuries there.

They shouldn't.

This is a common issue in martial arts schools that we train ourselves to overlook, but low grades should not be able to lay a finger on black belt grades.

It usually happens when training focusses too much on technique; a throwback to the Japanese culture of endlessly seeking perfection.

Awkward untrained opponents hitting you means your core skills need improving.

The core skills are the skills that come into play in fighting: spotting atracks before and during early launch, maintaining or controlling distance, coordinating hands to meet incoming attacks etc etc.

These can only be worked on in fluid partner training where speed and power are incrementally increased. In other words transition from technique focussed solo work to partner based fight simulation with a focus on building skills and attributes.

Many schools rely solely on sparring to build these skills, which is ok, but if you only spar once a week for 20 minutes and 80% of that is centred on trying to "win" against your club mates, it won't be enough.

 

[WaterGal]

They shouldn't.

This is a common issue in martial arts schools that we train ourselves to overlook, but low grades should not be able to lay a finger on black belt grades.

It usually happens when training focusses too much on technique; a throwback to the Japanese culture of endlessly seeking perfection.

Awkward untrained opponents hitting you means your core skills need improving.

In my experience, it usually happens because of "the rules". That is, the experienced students are using good control and following the sparring rules to a T. They're guarding the legal striking targets, moving around, watching for good strikes, blah blah blah. The beginner student, on the other hand, is flailing around throwing any hit they can manage to execute without much regard for where it lands. So the experienced student is guarding their head and chest, and then the beginner tries for one of those targets, totally misses, and roundhouse kicks the experienced student in the elbow, hurting both themself and the other person in the process.

Now, should the higher belt person be watching for a strike to any part of their body during sparring, even if it's a non-scoring or illegal move in their style of sparring? That's a valid question, and one that I'm sure we can debate for a million years.

 

[drop bear]

Dan Kelly is a prime example.

 

[drop bear]

They shouldn't.

This is a common issue in martial arts schools that we train ourselves to overlook, but low grades should not be able to lay a finger on black belt grades.

It usually happens when training focusses too much on technique; a throwback to the Japanese culture of endlessly seeking perfection.

Awkward untrained opponents hitting you means your core skills need improving.

The core skills are the skills that come into play in fighting: spotting atracks before and during early launch, maintaining or controlling distance, coordinating hands to meet incoming attacks etc etc.

These can only be worked on in fluid partner training where speed and power are incrementally increased. In other words transition from technique focussed solo work to partner based fight simulation with a focus on building skills and attributes.

Many schools rely solely on sparring to build these skills, which is ok, but if you only spar once a week for 20 minutes and 80% of that is centred on trying to "win" against your club mates, it won't be enough.

There is no shouldn't. That is exactly the sort of expectation that takes a school away from honest assessment.

 

[DaveB]

There is no shouldn't. That is exactly the sort of expectation that takes a school away from honest assessment.

How so?

 

[DaveB]

In my experience, it usually happens because of "the rules". That is, the experienced students are using good control and following the sparring rules to a T. They're guarding the legal striking targets, moving around, watching for good strikes, blah blah blah. The beginner student, on the other hand, is flailing around throwing any hit they can manage to execute without much regard for where it lands. So the experienced student is guarding their head and chest, and then the beginner tries for one of those targets, totally misses, and roundhouse kicks the experienced student in the elbow, hurting both themself and the other person in the process.

Now, should the higher belt person be watching for a strike to any part of their body during sparring, even if it's a non-scoring or illegal move in their style of sparring? That's a valid question, and one that I'm sure we can debate for a million years.

If they are participating in a sport then no. If they are participating in a martial art then yes. And no thats not a judgement, my Tkd yrs were much more sport than ma.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no shouldn't. That is exactly the sort of expectation that takes a school away from honest assessment.

I don’t think so. In this case, it’s just a statement (that I don’t necessarily agree with) of what outcome the poster predicts. It doesn’t state what people should do. I shouldn’t be able to submit a BJJ black belt in the ground under most circumstances. I don’t think that expectation takes away any capacity for assessment.

 

[drop bear]

How so?

You get guys who are naturally

I don’t think so. In this case, it’s just a statement (that I don’t necessarily agree with) of what outcome the poster predicts. It doesn’t state what people should do. I shouldn’t be able to submit a BJJ black belt in the ground under most circumstances. I don’t think that expectation takes away any capacity for assessment.

It happens. Mighty mouse is a white belt. Wilson reis is a bjj black belt champion.
Wilson Reis | BJJ Heroes

There is no shouldn’t there just is.