GotJ was cool and so was new coke. Gained a lot of weight on that. The New Coke I mean.
TKD and real self defense
- Thread starter terryl965
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GotJ was cool and so was new coke. Gained a lot of weight on that. The New Coke I mean.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
In my opinion there are no hard and fast rules for self defence. I agree with you in that I would never throw a head kick in a real street fight but in saying that I saw 2 guys having a "punch up" in a mcdonalds car park a little while ago and one of the guys threw a beautiful roundhouse to the other guys head and ended the fight right there , it hit the guy flush in the side of the head and knocked him about 2 feet to the side before he landed in a heap on the side of the road. As I say , I wouldnt advise a head kick in real life self defence but you can never dismiss any move and simply say it wont work.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
some good points there. By black belt someone will be fit , have good reflexes , be strong and have good knowledge of distancing and be quick on their feet etc . All these things will help immensley when trying to defend themselves , it may not mean they will win every fight but it will put them in good stead against an average joe. Thats why I cant understand why some people try and say tkd will "be of no help whatsover if defending yourself ". Its these boad generalisations that really frustrate me.Absolutely.
And in terms of content, Taekwondo is much more comprehensive than most people realize, particularly ITF. KKW is really not all that comprehensive by comparison.
But as I said earlier, it really does not need to be; you do not need a large quantity of techniques for effective SD, and even in Kukki TKD, the material is certain 'enough', but you do need to be well trained in the ones that you do have in order to effectively use them for anything outside of an exercise or belt test, and that will not happen the way that most TKD schools train.
Generally, Taekwondo's biggest "weak point" in terms of SD is not within the art but in the training focus. Kukkiwon TKD in particular has embraced sports in a big way. Dojo owners embrace it because it attracts students and wins trophies. It also works very well with kids, which are the bread and butter of most TKD schools. WTF sparing, and by extention, TKD in the olympics, is highly specialized, much more so than most martial sports, and does not resemble the self defense techniques found in TKD in any way.
Warning: long answer and tangent below:
Wonder what TKD will look like in a decade? Look at modern sport fencing. Electronic scoring, limited target areas (except epee), zero grappling (old school European sword had quite a few) and one of the original olympic sports. Streamlined and competative, with only the barest resemblence to the art of the duel from which it is descended. And those 'weapons' look like old car antennas with grips. And it is a lot of fun!
Now, the question that I have is this: is this such a bad thing? BJJ has holes in a lot of areas too, but nobody bashes it. They accept that it is a grappling/throwing/groundgame art and do not ask it to be Shotokan or boxing. BJJ certainly has a strong sportive aspect too, at least as much, if not more so, than TKD.
If you are training in one of the few hard core, SD oriented traditional TKD schools, you will likely be ready for most any unarmed encounter. If you train at the majority of TKD schools, you will have a good art that builds character, fitness, and has a strong sportive aspect focused on kicks. You will go home after training feeling better than you did when you went in and you will be a better person for it all by the time you earn your black belt. As far as SD, you will be in a better position than you were before you started, mainly because you will at least have good avoidance, blocking, and distancing skills and will be in better condition. Not the same as a hard core SD student, but better than the average Joe.
Oh yes, your stress levels will be lower and your cardio will be better. You will be more flexible and stronger, all of which will contribute to longevity and quality of life.
If you ask me, that is a serious benefit in and of itself.
Daniel
Generalizations are the meat and drink of internet forums and are indeed frustrating.
On the plus side, they can also generate productive discussion.
Daniel
On the plus side, they can also generate productive discussion.
Daniel
Given the right circumstances, even flashy XMA moves can work. A turning kick is a great attack, and if you have the opening and can pull it off, more power to you. The main issue with a turning kick is, again, can you pull it off in the street clothes that you (the general you, not yo specifically
) wear? An 80's headbanger in leather pants and boots will have a lot more trouble than the guy in dockers. A guy in a business suit will likewise be at a disadvantage.Can you pivot in the shoes you wear the same way that you do in the dojo? If you wear traditional dress shoes with smooth soles, probably. Anything with tread, however, and your kicking dynamic has changed.
So much depends on how you as an individual train and the differences between your training and the peculiarties of your life outside of the dojo (clothes and such).
Daniel
Shaderon
Master of Arts
Look up Terry O'Neil a Karateka who comes from Liverpool England.
According to many people that worked with Terry he has the uncanny ability to kick numerous people in the head without lowering his knee once. He used to work the doors in Liverpool and Manchester in the roughest places going. He has literally fought for his collegues lives and his trademark was to lift his leg and turning kick (roundhouse) each person in the head without putting his leg down. This guy was extremely successful with this move and although I'm not saying that just anyone can do this, it's an exceptional talent, please don't write off high kicks completely.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
nope, not gonna buy it, High kicks in self defense are stupid, and dangerous, regardless of some guy being the new bruce lee.
anyone that teaches high kicks for self defense should be charged with fraud.
if you REALLY just GOTTA kick someone in the head, kick them in the grapes FIRST, then when they are bent over in pain, the head is right THERE at waist height, and kicking it is easy and safe.
anyone that teaches high kicks for self defense should be charged with fraud.
if you REALLY just GOTTA kick someone in the head, kick them in the grapes FIRST, then when they are bent over in pain, the head is right THERE at waist height, and kicking it is easy and safe.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
thats exactly when a head kick can work. If you stun the opponent first with a low kick or good punch then a head kick could finish them off. I dont think anyone is stupid enough to think a head kick can be used as the first move used in self defence. I remember reading once how quickly some guys can lift their leg , kick to the face and place their foot back down again. I cant remember the exact time but it was a fraction of a second. Therefore if an opponent was stunned for a fraction of a second that is heaps of time for a head kick. Its each to their own though , for me personally I would never use a head kick.
The underlined portion of your last sentence pretty much should answer this. This guy is definitely the exception, not the rule. And I mean amongst accomplished martial artists, not average Joes.
I have no doubt that it took him years to develop this ability and he is probably exceptionally athletic. And he probably developed it as a signature move. But the vast majority of people are not exceptionally athletic and have lives which preclude them from developing the ability to perform kicks in this manner to any degree that would be useful for SD.
What I always wonder is why people who try to defend sports/flashy kicks as being self defense, even though it is pretty well accepted that they are not good in that area, always pick out prodigies as their example.
Realistically, a pro football player could use NFL moves as 'self defense' successfully. But a pro football player does nothng but play football and train all day and can do football moves instinctively and without thinking. Not to mention that a pro football player works out at a level most MA hobbyists (the vast majority of practitioners) can only dream of. The fact that they average between two and three hundred pounds does not hurt either. But that does not make a case for using football moves for SD.
No, I do not completely write off high kicks, as I said earlier. But for all of the reasons that I have stated previously, high kicks really are tournament moves that should only use when circumstances are perfect. Which is generally fairly rare.
Daniel
Nope, you are WRONG. The LAST thing you want to do in REAL self defense is NOT kick high...
Sarcasm aside, the safe openings to high kick to the head do appear, so if you know how to do it, do it.
I don't know how everyone else practices it, but if you are at actual close range with someone and you throw an outside crescent or axe kick there really are not a lot of legit openings for the opponnet to counter you.
One of the whole ideals behind such extensive kicking training is the greater range, so if the distance is there a kick to the head may very well be the perfect answer. It hurts like a... ya know. It works.
I'm not on a lot lately, so I'll reply again when I'm back. ^~^
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
anyone throws an AXE kick on the street, on something that isnt half beat to death already, then they deserve the beating they are most likely gonna get
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Shaderon
Master of Arts
I gotta agree, axe kicks hurt like hell when you catch em in the face I can testify! But it's more a finishing move really to someone who is doubled over and about to get up again to give you another shot.
A well placed Axe kick to the back of the head.....
Well actually I prefer an elbow strike but then I'm not that flexible.
As to the high kicks... I wasn't saying that anyone should try and use them, just don't write them off as they won't work at all. It's been done and will be done again. But as I said it's an exceptional talent.
Revenant777
White Belt
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Shaderon
Master of Arts
Wow, that's some of the best axe kicks I've ever seen, again though, an exceptional talent. But proof it does work if you can do it.
BTW line breaks.. just press the enter key, that works for me.
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ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
If you are tall and flexible it is surprisingly easy to drop an axe kick on a shorter opponent , we have guys at our club that can bring one from out of nowhere. When my instructor graded for his 6th dan another 6th dan axe kicked him in the face during sparring and did some damage to my instructors face. I watched it back on video and it was so fast that I had to pause it to see what actually happened and it just nailed him. My instructor is no slouch and is very fast with quick reflexes (and over 30 years training) so if he can get hit with one anyone can.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
*sigh*
I DONT CARE what an elite trained fighter can do in a loose pair of fighting shorts
if YOU cant do it in JEANS it is a STUPID thing to do
dream on and fill your head with fantasies that you can pull that off on the streets, I will make sure to go visit your folks and let them know you didnt suffer at the end...
*walks away muttering*
I DONT CARE what an elite trained fighter can do in a loose pair of fighting shorts
if YOU cant do it in JEANS it is a STUPID thing to do
dream on and fill your head with fantasies that you can pull that off on the streets, I will make sure to go visit your folks and let them know you didnt suffer at the end...
*walks away muttering*
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I dont recall mentioning anything about doing axe kicks in tight fitting clothing. But you've clearly watched every street fight that has ever taken place and clearly have more knowledge than anyone else regarding the subject so I'll take your word for it. In the history of street fights no one has ever performed a successful axe kick according to your theory. I just hope everyone knows to take everything you say with a grain of salt.
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Revenant777
White Belt
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At least personally, I can easily throw head kicks in jeans. It is just plain not much more difficult than throwing head kicks in a dobak. However, the point was that, as demonstrated in the video and numerous others on youtube, it is possible to effectivly use high kicks, spinning kicks, ax kicks, and jumping kicks in a fight. Personaly I prefer body kicks because they are easyer, but I cannot think of any good reason why a quick front kick to the face could not be used in a fight.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I must have too much time on my hands because I just went and put on a pair of jeans to test the theory. I can easily kick to the head wearing jeans (I actually thought it would be more difficult). I will stress again , though , that I personally would never use a head kick in a real self defence situation but to say they simply cant work is a huge generalisation.
Even if you can do it in jeans (not that hard really) it's still not the best idea.
That aside, if you expect to defend yourself with kicks, wearing restrictive clothing isn't the best idea regardless.
