Understandable. Feel better.
TKD and real self defense
- Thread starter terryl965
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Understandable. Feel better.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
So you are trying to say I couldnt kick someone in the knee with jeans on? It is such a misconception people have that every tkd practitioner will try to kick everyone in the head. I also cant understand the concept that "tkd is useless at close range" , we learn many many techniques for close range at my club. Ive trained with many guys who can drop an axe kick on top of an opponents head while standing face to face.
You say this....
But then you follow it up with this....
Also, if your opponent is substantially taller than you, something that is much more possible in an SD situation, then even if you can get your kicking leg completely vertical, you will not be able to drop anything on your opponent's head. In addition, this is precisely the sort of move that one generally avoids in self defense because it opens up way more of your groin and inner thigh area to an attacker than you are capable of effectively guarding. Aside from taking a shot to the genitalia, if your opponent is wielding a knife, a shot to certain arteries in the leg can kill you before you get to the hospital.
Not to mention that any kick to the head more easily seen and countered than the aforementioned knee kick, compromises your ballance, and may not even be executable without stretching and warming up, an opportunity that one is rarely afforded when defending themselves.
Yes, you are correct: taekwondo has a wealth of infighting techniques; elbow strikes, knee strikes, short throw punches, low kicks and a host of punches and hand strikes. Even the blocks are strikes with the forearms and certainly could be used creatively (an inside middle block to the neck would really hurt).
The problem is that the majority of taekwondo schools do not train this way. Most train for high kicks and competition. Even if they do not compete, competition style fighting and one steps is what you will see in the majority of taekwondo schools. That is not 'bad' but it is not effective SD training. Hand techniques often play second fiddle to high kicks, and if you are in a Kukkiwon/WTF school (the majority of schools in the states and possibly the world), this is even more so.
Grapples are not really a part of KKW TKD, though I think that there are a few in there somewhere. You really do not need that many even, but you do need to be well trained in the ones that you do have in order to effectively use them for anything outside of an exercise or belt test, and that will not happen the way that most TKD schools train.
Daniel
...which I 100% agree with!
But then you follow it up with this....
...as a response to this....
.... which makes no sense, because "dropping an axe kick on the top of an opponent's head while standing face to face" is precisely the sort of thing that you can not do in jeans.
Also, if your opponent is substantially taller than you, something that is much more possible in an SD situation, then even if you can get your kicking leg completely vertical, you will not be able to drop anything on your opponent's head. In addition, this is precisely the sort of move that one generally avoids in self defense because it opens up way more of your groin and inner thigh area to an attacker than you are capable of effectively guarding. Aside from taking a shot to the genitalia, if your opponent is wielding a knife, a shot to certain arteries in the leg can kill you before you get to the hospital.
Not to mention that any kick to the head more easily seen and countered than the aforementioned knee kick, compromises your ballance, and may not even be executable without stretching and warming up, an opportunity that one is rarely afforded when defending themselves.
Yes, you are correct: taekwondo has a wealth of infighting techniques; elbow strikes, knee strikes, short throw punches, low kicks and a host of punches and hand strikes. Even the blocks are strikes with the forearms and certainly could be used creatively (an inside middle block to the neck would really hurt).
The problem is that the majority of taekwondo schools do not train this way. Most train for high kicks and competition. Even if they do not compete, competition style fighting and one steps is what you will see in the majority of taekwondo schools. That is not 'bad' but it is not effective SD training. Hand techniques often play second fiddle to high kicks, and if you are in a Kukkiwon/WTF school (the majority of schools in the states and possibly the world), this is even more so.
Grapples are not really a part of KKW TKD, though I think that there are a few in there somewhere. You really do not need that many even, but you do need to be well trained in the ones that you do have in order to effectively use them for anything outside of an exercise or belt test, and that will not happen the way that most TKD schools train.
Daniel
Earl Weiss
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Weak compared to what? If I search videos of real life altercations caught on video, I don't see a lot of fancy grappling or groundwork, nor does it appear that any is neccessary. In fact IMNSHO in a street altercation, you don't ewant to do much grappling.
So, is TKD weak in this regard? Only if you don't practice what it has to offer in the way of low kicks, knees and elbows.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
not to mention it is particuarly STUPID because:
1: axe kicks dont hurt when they stick that high, there is only signifigant force when they are very near the bottom of the arc
2: axe kicks cant be done in jeans
3: axe kicks are retarded in self defense since you have a better chance of hyperextending your knee than you do of hurting the other guy
this is just another example of TKD people confusing thier sport stuff with real fighting
so true it is sad
but it is at least good to see that someone can be honest about the reality of MOST TKD training
The height of kicks is adversely affected to varying degrees by the addition of street clothes. Jeans in particular are heavier than a gi, and the cut is not optimal for high kicks. Some cuts are more kick friendly, but flashy high kicks were not what they had in mind when they came up with how jeans are designed.
The jeans that I wear will allow for high kicks, but for all of the reasons that I mentioned in my last post, I tend to avoid high kicks in SD. The main reason that I make sure to buy clothes that are kick friendly is so that I can go to the park and practice without wearing a gi. I try to do forms in street clothes regularly.
And even then, after over two decades of practicing in street clothes and buying clothes with kick-friendly cuts, I still have not found a way to make my kicks come off the same way in street clothes as they do in a gi. My kicks are lower, slower, and my pivots are not as smooth (shoes tend to do that).
Another factor is shoes. Shoes slow down your kicks and alter your kicking dynamic (that rear foot does not pivot quite the same when you are wearing Nikes). Unless you practice with shoes, side kicks, turning kicks, and any high kick will be affected by the addition of shoes. then there are back hook kicks.
Daniel
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i recently started practicing with shoes. makes things a LOT different
OP
- Thread Starter
- #68
The thing is people forget that a Gi or Dobok is made for kicking and such, as jeans and everyday clothes are made for you to feel and look good. I tend to workout in my regular clothes once a week so I can remember what I can and cannot do in regular clothes. So many people have never even trained with real clothes some might use there camo pants but that is hardly regular going out clothes.
It's possible in jeans. The main problem (aside from the impracticality of an axe kick to the face in a SD situation) is you tend to rip the crotch out of the jeans while executing the kick. If you don't mind ruining your pants, there's not much stopping you from kicking high in jeans. Just a little more resistance than usual.
On top of that, self defense seems to be a pretty broad term inside TKD. Some places try to train pure TKD techniques, some use Hapkido, some Chin Na, BJJ... (Even if they don't actively label it as anything but TKD, that's what they're bringing in.) I've seen a lot of Judo and Arnis in the seminars I've attended.
Really Ho Shin Sul seems to be short for "anything goes".
The biggest problem that I have with that approach is that when other systems are grafted on, the mentality is TKD's holes are filled and that they have a superior SD curriculum.
The reality is that one can have an effective, striking based SD without the need to graft on hapkido, aikido, BJJ, JJJ, or Krav Maga. Nothing wrong with any of those systems, but unless the instructor has a good understanding of self defense, simply adding new material to the curriclum does not make it any more effective.
It is more important to train in your art, whatever it is, with an eye towards the type of encounters you will have in the real world rather than in the ring or towards obtaining the next belt (which is the primary focus of most schools, taekwondo or not).
The various iterations of karate (that includes taekwondo) all work well for self defense, provided one trains for self defense and not in a manner more suited to sport karate/point fighting. Good, solid strikes and a few useful grapples that are internalized to the point where you can execute them during adrenaline dump are really all that you need to have.
Really the biggest shortcoming that taekwondo has in terms of its training (not its content) is the comparative lack of focus on hand techniques in most schools and utter lacking of bunkai in even more schools.
By and large, the students do not understand the full use of the techniques in the Taegeuk forms and simply learn them to pass tests or to win trophies. Practical application is mostly limited to what is practical in sport.
Daniel
Practice in jeans and you can kick in jeans. Do an axe kick right and you can still land hard on the shoulder and do substantial damage. Why not try an outside crescent kick? Same basic motion, different, still effective tactic.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
when I said we learn many techniques for close combat I wasnt talking about axe kicks (I just used that as an example of how many kicks in tkd can be used at close range and not only at long range) , I was referring to close range self defence techniques such as grabs , wrist locks etc. It just confuses me how so many people out there think that tkd simply cant work at close range due to the fact that kicking is a big part of the cirriculum. Whilst a lot of kicks work better from long range , there are plenty of kicks that can work well in close.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Very tue. Its been years since Ive stopped going out to pubs/clubs (so maybe things have changed) , but when I used to go out and the inevitable punch up would start I can honestly say I never saw a fight go to the ground , I never saw any grappling either. Now suddenly Im hearing all these statistics saying most fights end up on the ground and you need a ground game to be any chance in a real fight. Things must have changed a lot since I used to see street fights.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
IIRC, the 90% of all fights ending up on the ground is actually from law enforcement statistics. You know, when the officer puts the suspect prone in order to cuff them. I'm not saying fights never go to the ground, especially now that many more people than before are training in grappling, but the numbers seem purposefully inflated to me. YMMV.
Pax,
Chris
Absolutely.
And in terms of content, Taekwondo is much more comprehensive than most people realize, particularly ITF. KKW is really not all that comprehensive by comparison.
But as I said earlier, it really does not need to be; you do not need a large quantity of techniques for effective SD, and even in Kukki TKD, the material is certain 'enough', but you do need to be well trained in the ones that you do have in order to effectively use them for anything outside of an exercise or belt test, and that will not happen the way that most TKD schools train.
Generally, Taekwondo's biggest "weak point" in terms of SD is not within the art but in the training focus. Kukkiwon TKD in particular has embraced sports in a big way. Dojo owners embrace it because it attracts students and wins trophies. It also works very well with kids, which are the bread and butter of most TKD schools. WTF sparing, and by extention, TKD in the olympics, is highly specialized, much more so than most martial sports, and does not resemble the self defense techniques found in TKD in any way.
Warning: long answer and tangent below:
Wonder what TKD will look like in a decade? Look at modern sport fencing. Electronic scoring, limited target areas (except epee), zero grappling (old school European sword had quite a few) and one of the original olympic sports. Streamlined and competative, with only the barest resemblence to the art of the duel from which it is descended. And those 'weapons' look like old car antennas with grips. And it is a lot of fun!
Now, the question that I have is this: is this such a bad thing? BJJ has holes in a lot of areas too, but nobody bashes it. They accept that it is a grappling/throwing/groundgame art and do not ask it to be Shotokan or boxing. BJJ certainly has a strong sportive aspect too, at least as much, if not more so, than TKD.
If you are training in one of the few hard core, SD oriented traditional TKD schools, you will likely be ready for most any unarmed encounter. If you train at the majority of TKD schools, you will have a good art that builds character, fitness, and has a strong sportive aspect focused on kicks. You will go home after training feeling better than you did when you went in and you will be a better person for it all by the time you earn your black belt. As far as SD, you will be in a better position than you were before you started, mainly because you will at least have good avoidance, blocking, and distancing skills and will be in better condition. Not the same as a hard core SD student, but better than the average Joe.
Oh yes, your stress levels will be lower and your cardio will be better. You will be more flexible and stronger, all of which will contribute to longevity and quality of life.
If you ask me, that is a serious benefit in and of itself.
Daniel
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
bad bad bad bad bad bad bad ideas
head level kicking ON THE STREET is about the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. Right up there with New Coke and George of the Jungle live action film
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Depends upon the cut of the jeans, but whether or not you can is another issue from whether or not it is a good idea.
An axe kick in WTF point sparring is a great idea because your opponent is unlikely to punch you, strikes below the hogu are off limits and in the even of an accident, you are wearing a cup.
In a violent encounter, an axe kick opens up your entire lower body's vital areas to attack, and it is impossible to effectively guard that much territory. Also, if they catch your foot (something else that is not allowed in competition), they can then hammer your rear leg knee, twist your kicking foot and damage your knee, break your knee with an elbow shot, kick the tar out of your groin, or knife you in the groin, possibly cutting your femoral artery in the process, or if you are extremely lucky, toss you on your back.
Now, show of hands: how many TKD schools teach ukemi?
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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And how many do it well? There's a lot more to ukemi than the simple forward roll many teach. There's also ukemi you might perform as a sacrifice technique to move out of a major predicament caused by someone who has ahold of one of your joints and is about to break it.
I've always wanted to see a Youtube video of a real fight where someone lands something like an axe kick. Haven't come across one yet.
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