conflicted about self defense

[Thesemindz]

At our school we teach a style of American Kenpo that focuses on self defense. We include training at all ranges and levels, striking and grappling, with and without weapons, against single or multiple opponents.

In our beginner class we teach an eight week rotating theme curriculum which is focused on instructing the beginner students in basic martial arts and self defense skills.

1. Basic Boxing
2. Front Kicks and Breakfalls
3. Backnuckle Strikes
4. Knee Strikes
5. Handsword Strikes
6. Rear Kicks and Roundhouse Kicks
7. Elbow Strikes
8. Side Kicks and Wheel Kicks

In the intermediate class we teach a four month rotating theme curriculum which is focused on building those skills into actual fighting practice at different levels and ranges and then integrating those styles of fighting. Those four months are broken down like this.

1. Ground Fighting
2. Street Fighting
3. Karate Fighting
4. Integrated Fighting

In the advanced and black belt classes we focus more on weapons and multiple opponent scenarios. All of this is in addition to our American Kenpo curriculum of Techniques, Sets, Forms, Basics, and Knowledge Factors, each of which also have associated drills and practices.

If you want a more specific idea about what I teach, I have posted my Ground, Street, and Karate Fighting curricula here on MartialTalk

Ground Fighting
Street Fighting
Karate Fighting

I have also posted my class plans for the last five months.

March
April
May
June
July

In addition to all of this material, we regularly discuss issues such as

Flinch Response
O.O.D.A. Loop
Legalities of Self Defense
Legalities of Using a Weapon
Medical Implications of Strikes and Techniques
Home Invasion
Physiological Responses to Stress
Basic Self Defense Concepts (identifying predatory behavior, stun and run, crime scene B)
Verbal De-escalation
Environmental Weapons
Attitude, Awareness, Aggression, and Intimidation
Visualization and Commitment

We also bring legal professionals and security professionals in to the school to discuss these issues and related topics with our students.

Our school and our immediate lineage have a history of approaching martial arts training from a practical applicable real world self defense point of view. Not every school does, and that's fine. There are several very good competition oriented schools in our area. We are not one of them. We teach combat, not combat sports. As such, our classes are focused on how a person can use the skills we teach specifically in a violent and unrehearsed encounter, in non-ideal circumstances, against larger, tougher, more highly skilled opponents. Even when we teach things like karate style point fighting it is as a spontaneous activity designed to improve our overall combat efficacy.

We do teach several highly stylized techniques and patterns. Our Leopard and Tiger sets, as well as many of our Two Man techniques are very choreographed. But we immediately draw back from those practices lessons that we can apply to real combat, and then we practice applying it.

That is just what we teach. If you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer them. Lots of other schools teach something different. I think there are many paths to the mountain top. And I don't have any beef with sports schools. I do object to sports schools that advertise that they teach self defense. I think that is delusional false advertising at best and potentially life threatening fraud at worst. Not because a boxer can't win a street fight. Certainly he can. But self defense incorporates a completely different training methodology than ring fighting and if those unique aspects aren't taken into account people could get hurt. Period. And that's not something I want on my conscience.

In your original post you said the following,

The self defense I learned from my tkd instructors was ok but did not work against a resisting partner. They would always say "of course, an attacker would not be expecting it" or "if they resist then strike them here first". My hapkido gm was amazing but many of the moves required complicated grabs and combinations that again did not always work against a resisting partner. Judo was great but very painful (falling again and again). I learned to off balance my partners when they resisted. Bjj filled many, many gaps. If you have never done it you should. Every technique works resisted or not. Timing, strategy and lots of mat time are the key. The down side is no striking and manyschools only focus on competitive bjj and forget the sd part.

1. The attacker is expecting it. He is far more prepared for violence in that moment than you are. He may not be better at it, but he's definitely got the right mind set. You will not catch him off guard.

2. It has to work against a resisting opponent. Your attacker will resist. He is trying to hurt you. He will not play along. And if you fail, you may die.

3. Falling is probably the single most important self defense technique there is. I have used breakfalls to save myself more often than any other technique I've learned in karate. Done properly, they shouldn't hurt nearly as much as you seem to imply. That's the whole point of a breakfall. Make sure you are doing them properly.

4. There is no place for competition in a street encounter. There is only survival. You aren't there for pride or points, and if you are, it isn't self defense. It's social violence. Grappling is an invaluable skill, but it is only a piece of the puzzle.

Make sure that you are only teaching what you believe in. If you doubt it, test it. Whether you teach TKD or BJJ or Shotokan or Judo or Hapkido is unimportant. You are teaching self defense. That is a separate discipline. The systems are artificial. The blood your students may leave in the gutters should the techniques you teach them fail is not. Jump spinning roundhouse kicks are useful and powerful techniques. They are not self defense techniques. Regardless of what you call it, it has to work against a resisting opponent who attacks you by surprise from behind with a weapon or it isn't self defense. That doesn't mean you have to run a gladiator school. But you have to be realistic in your approach and in your curriculum.

Good luck.


-Rob

 

[WC_lun]

Teaching self defense is different tha teaching a "style." If you teach self defense, you are essentially telling students that what you are teaching them is the most effective thing you know in order for them to come out of a defense situation as unscathed as possible. You are doing a large disservice to your students if you are teaching them anything other than the best under the heading of self-defense. It would be better not to teach them anything as self-defense than to teach them something that doesn't work. It is great to teach a system and to teach a sport. It has its' own rewards. If you teach subpar self defense, your students could pay the price. In my opiion, that is not worth sticking to a certain system in order to be a purist.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Teach what is required for their testing in rank then instruct them in a blend of what you feel will work.
Some of the things that do not work for you may work for them so take into account the students in that class and work towards giveing them a well rounded approach towards defense.
Nothing ever wrong with teaching ouside the system your grading in as long as the students know it is from somewhere else
Remember to point out the flaws in all the defenses you teach

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Some of the things that do not work for you may work for them so take into account the students in that class and work towards giveing them a well rounded approach towards defense.

This is a good point to bring up! We have a single form in MSK KSD. The form as the same 'skeleton' for everyone i.e. the same initial movements used within the frame work of a common attack. The initial movements stress angled movement and viability of use at different ranges (arms length to grappling) which can be commonly used by most practitioners. The conclusions will differ for each though. One of my students was built like a fire plug. Due to physical limitations he was a very poor kicker but could punch and grapple with the best of them. So it would be a complete waste of time to teach him a lot of kicking techniques as he'd never use them. So for him, we concentrated on small circle movements and tight punching. I had another student who was 'Gumby' and more flexible than me. So her conclusions were different than the fire plug above. What this meant was that the forms movements had a different ending from person to person. In other words, the form was tailored to each practitioner based upon their personal strengths while taking into account any limitations (if any) that they might have. Since the form wasn't meant for 'competition' it wasn't restricted to being a cookie-cutter.

 

[poollshark]

As to your question, I would think you should teach one art well, and bring in things you have learned from other arts that would be useful to students for SD. You just need to let you students know what you are doing so they know what is the art you teach, and what is borrowed from another art. I understand many schools do this already.

This would be my advice also. Where I train we train in 1 main discipline(kempo) but my instructor also mixes in lots of other stuff, an example. A couple weeks ago class started and we were informed we'd be doing something different today(a common occurrence). My instructor has many years of FMA training and we spent the class working on some knife and stick defenses. This training has no bearing on our kempo training and isn't something we'll be graded on. It was explained to us though that this is meant to compliment to our kempo training, make us more rounded martial artists. I like it.

Keep in mind that I'm a know nothing beginner but I think this is a great approach.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I tried krav maga. Was the same techniques, with some variations, that I learned as an infantry Marine. Good weapon sd.

I'm a Hisardut Krav Maga instructor, and overall it is an extremely good system with proven real world results. The only thing I don't care for is the knife disarm techniques. While they have been used successfully in combat there are better systems i.e. Darren Laur/Peter Boatman.

Depending upon your location in the world, and your exposure to potential terrorist incidents, Krav Maga training is essential beyond just the physical combat applications. It also has an urban defensive training element to help you deal with things such as bombs, firearms, improvised weapons etc. Which a good SD system should have!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Teaching self defense is different tha teaching a "style." If you teach self defense, you are essentially telling students that what you are teaching them is the most effective thing you know in order for them to come out of a defense situation as unscathed as possible. You are doing a large disservice to your students if you are teaching them anything other than the best under the heading of self-defense. It would be better not to teach them anything as self-defense than to teach them something that doesn't work. It is great to teach a system and to teach a sport. It has its' own rewards. If you teach subpar self defense, your students could pay the price. In my opiion, that is not worth sticking to a certain system in order to be a purist.

And this is an excellent post! One of my pet peeves is a MA school that has a focus on something other than SD hanging a 'Self-Defense Taught Here' sign over the trophy case. I know that view isn't popular with some, but it is what it is and I'll take a stand on that position all day long. Telling students that they are learning SD while teaching refined motor skills (which you lose under duress), sport type sparring and competition forms is being dishonest with them. If the school is a sport school, then fine, advertise it as such. If it is a long involved martial journey type school then fine, advertise it as such. But advertising it as effective SD is only going to give a student a false sense of security and get someone hurt.

We had a phase in L.E. where certain sport MA's and MMA's got involved in training courses. This was back when they were the 'flavor of the month' due to the 'real' MMA fights. They got in due to high liability coordinators with no practical street experience being 'wooed' by the flash and fluff. They were quickly weeded out or their whole systems had to be changed away from sport to street applications. It took a few years but it is gone, at least from our regional training center.

As mentioned, if you're going to advertise SD, you'd better damn well be able to deliver as someone's life may very well depend on it. Look at the links in my first post in this thread. It isn't just advertising my words for the sake of 'hey look at me', it is to provide information for the serious instructor that may not really know what SD involves but wants to learn. That is my purpose and my goal. If you want to learn great sport MA then go to a champion who has been there and done that. If you want to know SD then go to someone that not only teaches it but uses it daily.

Just my two cents

 

[ATACX GYM]

Blend. But...

If you're teaching SD, and not a Static Style, limiting yourself to one method isnt a great plan. Having said that, where i am, we always practice SD against a resisting partner, and as such, unfortunately i cant relate to any issues presented, as nowere ive trained has had them;

If you're teaching a Static Style, as in, say, TKD, and SD is just one aspect of it that you're teaching. Tweak what you were taught, practice against a resisting opponent, and alter it until it works in a way you find satisfactory. But remember that in this instance, you are not an MMA Gym;

Hope that helps.

This is on the right track up here^^^.I'm belted in every art you mentioned except bjj and shotokan.Streamline and make more efficient your techs.With 30 yrs in TKD,you certainly should have definite if not exceptional facility with effective,fight ending kicks at long to close range (even the clinch).Use your empty hand strikes,judo clinch work,hapkido strikes to judo clinch to throws,and finish with strikes (the shotokan reverse punch,tkd and hkd kicks to a grounded opponent are favorites of mine) and don't forget the jillion ways to modify and simplify entry into hkd wrist locks both standing and grounded.If you strike/throw them first? Most people are distinctly vulnerable to these techs...trained or not.

Draw upon all your techs.Train with them realistically but with minimal to moderate force (for the protection of your students and training partners) until you've got a logical,effective,reliable combination.One of mine for my pre-white belts is: front kick-thrust punch-reverse punch-front kick-knife hand-osotogare-reverse punch-cover out. Another is a defense to the hockey punch which we practice from them grabbing our shirt,the clinch,and in the midst of a combination and the clinch happens.Defend the blow from the hand/limbs that's NOT grabbing you (this includes defending knee strikes,throws,tackles,head butts and elbows from the base defense tech),palm strike the chin with simultaneously pinning the hand grabbing your shirt/overhooking the arm grabbing you,knee the groin/midsection/thigh,reset into a side horse stance that launches you perfectly into harai goshi,finish with stomp kick and hkd basic wristlock.I also have this exact same sequence but the takedown is a kosotogare,so you can continue your forward momentum into your opponent in a unbroken stream.Look at the TKD SD and see where you have a problem with them,and modify them until they're efficient and express what you wish to express and teach (as I have with TKD,HKD,KENPO,CAPOEIRA SEQUENCIAS,etc.) Develope escapes from grabs like the double bicep grab and pin,pins against the wall,single and double frontal choke standing and on the ground,etc.You can effect many escapes (including from chokes) from standing positions by say transferring into a shotokan deep side horse stance,executing a hard inside or outside block (depending on the choke type) and firing a four punch combo to head and body (I also add in a ridgehand to the groin and knife hand to the neck,ear or temple),a front kick,and finishing with a osotogare or harai-gare (the osotogare just done with the harai set up going forward,to either side or backward).Very simple,very effective...and it teaches that aggressive mindset that you want newbies to have.