I have retained them, but have not taught them in years. I have a couple of guys who might be ready for and want them, so we will see.Seabrook said:
-Michael
Tiger/Crane Set
- Thread starter RichK
- Start date
-Michael
Randy Strausbaugh
Master Black Belt
According to Al Tracy, the Panther Set was originally intended to be the form depicted in Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate. It was practiced so often in preparation for this, it came to be referred to as the Book Set. Later SGM Parker dropped the Panther Set from the book in favor of the Two Man Set (aka the Black Belt Set).Seabrook said:
Hope this helps.
Doc
Senior Master
Can't a brother get some sleep? I already have a couple of questions pending on another thread.Seabrook said:
OK this one is easy so;The "Book Set" and "Panther Set" are the same. Originally coming from Hung Gar as the "Panther Form or Set," it was included in Parker's Book, Secret's of Chinese Karate," via Jimmy Woo with a dash of Lao Bun. It picked up the nickname "Book Set" because it was the set "in the book." Al Tracy however when he split off, continued to call it by it's proper name thus the confusion. The two books that Mr. Parker had published in 1961 and 63 were distinctive in color, and were often simply identified by their exterior jacket color. "Kenpo-Karate" was known as the "Blue Book," and "Secrets" was known as the "Orange Book." So you see to say the "Book Set," to identify that particular form wasn't much of a leap.
Speaking of "Book Set" and "Tiger & Crane," I just looked at Chuck Sullivan beginning the movements of Tiger & Crane on film. (no cracks) Yes that's right, film. I had some film I hadn't labeled and I had to dig up the old 16mm projector to see what the film was. I watched He and Parker peforming all of the precursor techniques to today's commercial system, and they actually performed the Book Set. Interesting viewing and appropriately timed to this thread.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
The Tiger/Crane set is originally from the Hung Gar, Southern Chinese system, and is probably the most famous form from that style, and is one of the more famous forms in all of Chinese martial arts. It was created by Wong Fei-Hung, a Hung Gar master who lived some time in the 1800s, I believe. Wong Fei-Hung has become a Chinese Folk Hero, and many movies have been made about him. Jackie Chan played Wong Fei-Hung in Drunken Master II, and Jet Li played him in the Once Upon A Time in China movies.
According to the Tracys, it was one of them (not Al, but one of the other two, James or Will) who learned the form from someone in San Francisco's Chinatown, sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s. Apparently Kenpo did not have any katas at the time, and Ed Parker wanted the system to have some, so he asked the Tracy brother to go and learn some Chinese forms and bring them back to be incorporated into kenpo. While James Wing Woo had a large role in developing the Kenpo Katas, at least thru Long 4, I do not believe it was he who taught Tiger/Crane to the Tracys.
The Tracy lineage still keeps this form as part of the curriculum, but I believe much of the original movement quality has been lost, and the form is not particularly well done. If you are interested in learning this form, it would probably be best if you learned it from a skilled Hung Gar practitioner. There are instructional videos on the market that teach the form, but there are very specific qualitites in the movements that cannot be conveyed through video.
Also, there are many versions of the form, as it has been altered by subsequent generations and lineages of Hung Gar, as well as borrowed by people from other systems. While many of the versions are very good, just understand that it may not look completely identical, depending on who is doing it, or from whom you learn it.
According to the Tracys, it was one of them (not Al, but one of the other two, James or Will) who learned the form from someone in San Francisco's Chinatown, sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s. Apparently Kenpo did not have any katas at the time, and Ed Parker wanted the system to have some, so he asked the Tracy brother to go and learn some Chinese forms and bring them back to be incorporated into kenpo. While James Wing Woo had a large role in developing the Kenpo Katas, at least thru Long 4, I do not believe it was he who taught Tiger/Crane to the Tracys.
The Tracy lineage still keeps this form as part of the curriculum, but I believe much of the original movement quality has been lost, and the form is not particularly well done. If you are interested in learning this form, it would probably be best if you learned it from a skilled Hung Gar practitioner. There are instructional videos on the market that teach the form, but there are very specific qualitites in the movements that cannot be conveyed through video.
Also, there are many versions of the form, as it has been altered by subsequent generations and lineages of Hung Gar, as well as borrowed by people from other systems. While many of the versions are very good, just understand that it may not look completely identical, depending on who is doing it, or from whom you learn it.
Doc
Senior Master
While I agree with the bulk of your post sir, it was not the Tracy's that brought this form to Kenpo. Tiger and the Crane was a central form at Wah Que Kwoon where Ed Parker studied with Ark Wong in the Los Angeles Chinatown along with a young Jimmy Woo, who subsequently began teaching for Ed Parker in Parker's own school where the Tracy's ultimately became students. I saw Jimmy Woo and Parker teach this form, and that makes it highly unlikely that The Tracy's had learned this form elsewhere and then somehow taught it to Jimmy Woo and Ed Parker who already knew and taught several variations.Flying Crane said:
Additionally, within a year of establishing himself Parker had already incorporated what was ultimately called "Star Block," "Short One," and "Short Two" as Kenpo's first forms along with the borrowed and modified "Tiger and Crane," and "Two Man Set."
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
HI Doc,
If you were there and know this to be a fact, then I cannot argue with you. The story I have relayed is what the Tracy's claim. I do not know the Tracy's personally, and do not belong to their organization, but my kenpo training is from their lineage. Their claims have been posted in a series of articles by Will Tracy, on the following website: http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm I am only relaying what I have read. With the passing of Mr. Parker, I suspect a lot of people may make unverifiable claims, or tell only the part of the truth that they like best. I am not accusing either you, or the Tracys of this, simply making an observation.
Michael
If you were there and know this to be a fact, then I cannot argue with you. The story I have relayed is what the Tracy's claim. I do not know the Tracy's personally, and do not belong to their organization, but my kenpo training is from their lineage. Their claims have been posted in a series of articles by Will Tracy, on the following website: http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm I am only relaying what I have read. With the passing of Mr. Parker, I suspect a lot of people may make unverifiable claims, or tell only the part of the truth that they like best. I am not accusing either you, or the Tracys of this, simply making an observation.
Michael
Doc
Senior Master
I know you meant no harm. Many take what the Tracy's have done in their revisionist history as gospel. Unfortunately a great deal of it is aimed at discrediting Ed Parker, particularly after they publicly shifted their lineage to Mitose, and literally dropped Ed Parker from their lineage. Considering the great business success of the Tracy brothers, which in many ways inspired Parker to expand his "business" of kenpo, it appears to me wholly unneccessary. With or without Ed Parker, Al has built an impressive empire.Flying Crane said:
I haven't see AL in years even though I spoke with him a few years ago. I haven't seen any of the other brothers since Superior Court in the 90's in Los Angeles on another criminal issue. There are other ex-Tracy people around who can give you more insight into their more recent actions. Knowing all of them personally, I remain cordial and curious and only speak on issues that need factual clarifications.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
right-on. I'd be curious to know what happened in Superior Court (heh heh)Doc said:
michael
Seabrook
Black Belt
A lot of that stuff is, ah, let's just say, baloney.Flying Crane said:
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Hi Jamie,Seabrook said:
Well, that may well be so, like I stated earlier, I think since the passing of Mr. Parker, a lot of people find it easier to make unverifiable claims, or tell only a portion of the truth that may distort the true picture. I am in no position to judge either way. Whether or not the stuff in these documents is baloney is something that I cannot judge, but the Tracys pass the same judgement over much of what Mr. Parker's students in American Kenpo believe. I am not trying to start an argument, or a war, I am just stating that I have seen the same judgement cast by both sides. For someone like myself, I am interested in hearing both sides. The Tracy's position is that they were there at the time, they were involved in the events that took place, and they witnessed these events as they unfolded. OK, that makes them a Primary source in this history.
If you have information to back up your assertion that much of this is baloney, I would love to hear it. Were you there, or do you have connections to people who were there and are also a Primary source? If this is baloney, please debunk it with solid information. I apologize if this topic has been already covered in the forum, but I just discovered the forum a couple weeks ago, and I just began posting yesterday. If it has, please direct me to the thread.
Much of the politics that happen in the martial arts can get really ugly. It is especially sad when a student splits from his/her instructor on bad terms. A relationship that was based on trust and respect has been shattered, and people on both sides don't always act in a noble fashion.
Even outside the politics, people who are otherwise good, generous and intelligent can sometimes make poor judgements and act in a petty manner. The problem is that often, this is all that people (or at least certain people) can remember. It takes a thousand acts to build a reputation, but only one to destroy it.
Even if the information contained in the Tracy's articles is 10%, or 40%, or 75%, or 100% true, it doesn't detract from the good work that Mr. Parker did, and the legacy that he has left behind. We can, I think, all accept the fact that Mr. Parker was a person, not a god, and therefor subject to making mistakes, like all the rest of us. Ok, that's life, but it doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't disgrace his memory to recognize this.
Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I have NO desire to start an argument, or degrade Mr. Parker, or American Kenpo. I am still searching in my own path within kenpo and other martial arts, and this is a topic that simply came up. I am something of a history buff, and would love to hear all points of view on this or any topic, but would like to know how people know what they know, and how they can back up their claims.
thank you
michael
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
Flying Crane aka Michael,
Irrespective of the topic, I think your last post was extremely polite, well put together and deserves a credible answer, it seems as though you want answers, not argument, facts not fiction, whether you will get them from this particular can of worms is another thing.
The Kenpo faction fighting comes around every now and then, honestly its better left to the combatants, its a restrictive sludge that won't really help you with your progress.
I would like to see a few bridges built on this particular subject and who knows the "Flying Crane" may get the construction job!
Cheers Rich
Irrespective of the topic, I think your last post was extremely polite, well put together and deserves a credible answer, it seems as though you want answers, not argument, facts not fiction, whether you will get them from this particular can of worms is another thing.
The Kenpo faction fighting comes around every now and then, honestly its better left to the combatants, its a restrictive sludge that won't really help you with your progress.
I would like to see a few bridges built on this particular subject and who knows the "Flying Crane" may get the construction job!
Cheers Rich
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Perhaps this discussion is getting a bit off-topic, which was originally about the Tiger/Crane form. The Tracy's claim they introduced it into Kenpo, after one of them learned it in San Francisco's Chinatown. Doc believes Mr. Parker learned it from Ark Wong in Los Angeles Chinatown. I personally did not know that Mr. Parker trained with Ark Wong, nor did I realize that Ark Wong was a Hung Gar person. If true, then I learned something new!
I have also heard the story that William Chow's father was a Hung Gar man, and he taught the form to William, who taught it to Mr. Parker. I have my doubts about that story, as it seems that if Hung Gar was a large part of Mr. Chow's training, then most or all of the system would have found its way into kenpo, and not just one form. In addition, the Tracys claim this story has no truth.
I doubt if either the Tracys, or Doc, or anyone else who believes they know the answer to how the form was introduced into kenpo is going to feel inclined to change their story just because someone else makes a different claim. In light of this, there may always be a shadow of doubt over what really happened. After thinking about it tho, I feel that it doesn't really matter. What is important to know is that the form originally came from the Hung Gar system, and was borrowed by Kenpo in the late 50s or early 60s. The Tracys and some of the others who were around in the early days kept the form, but Mr. Parker ultimately dropped it from American Kenpo. The details about how it all happened perhaps are just not that important.
As for the documents written by Will Tracy, they are certainly inflammatory and do not paint a pretty picture of Mr. Parker. This, however, is not the proper thread to continue discussion on how much, or how little, truth they contain. Perhaps a new thread could be started, in which those who have any real, first-hand knowledge of what went on in the early days can respectfully give their evidence. I am afraid it could easily turn into a bloodbath, however, so I hesitate to start that thread. I'll think about it a bit...
To Kenpoworks: thank you for your comments. I appreciate it very much.
Peace,
Michael
I have also heard the story that William Chow's father was a Hung Gar man, and he taught the form to William, who taught it to Mr. Parker. I have my doubts about that story, as it seems that if Hung Gar was a large part of Mr. Chow's training, then most or all of the system would have found its way into kenpo, and not just one form. In addition, the Tracys claim this story has no truth.
I doubt if either the Tracys, or Doc, or anyone else who believes they know the answer to how the form was introduced into kenpo is going to feel inclined to change their story just because someone else makes a different claim. In light of this, there may always be a shadow of doubt over what really happened. After thinking about it tho, I feel that it doesn't really matter. What is important to know is that the form originally came from the Hung Gar system, and was borrowed by Kenpo in the late 50s or early 60s. The Tracys and some of the others who were around in the early days kept the form, but Mr. Parker ultimately dropped it from American Kenpo. The details about how it all happened perhaps are just not that important.
As for the documents written by Will Tracy, they are certainly inflammatory and do not paint a pretty picture of Mr. Parker. This, however, is not the proper thread to continue discussion on how much, or how little, truth they contain. Perhaps a new thread could be started, in which those who have any real, first-hand knowledge of what went on in the early days can respectfully give their evidence. I am afraid it could easily turn into a bloodbath, however, so I hesitate to start that thread. I'll think about it a bit...
To Kenpoworks: thank you for your comments. I appreciate it very much.
Peace,
Michael
Doc
Senior Master
Mr. Parker trained with Ark Wong as well as with Lau Bun briefly in northern California, and others. Danny Inosanto trained with Ark Wong before coming to Parker, and so did Jimmy Woo before they both moved on. In those days, and especially among the Chinese, it was never about "style" only methodologies. It was not unusual for what we call today a "Hung Gar stylists" to be well versed in various methodologies. Ark Wong if pressed identified himself as "Five Animal" but was the consumate Chinese Master that all sought to improve their knowledge and skills regardless of personal preferences. He taught elements of Hung Gar, ChoyLifut. Splashing Hands, Taijiquan, Chin na,etc. He also taught herbal medicine and massage, and acupuncture, etcFlying Crane said:
Although WIlliam Chow did in fact know Chinese Forms, he did not in general teach them. I have no first hand knowledge of where he learned them but Mr. Parker spoke of Chow performing Chinese Forms and Sets for his students to "see," but his first love was "mixing it up" on the floor doing techniques and grappling. The source of Mr. Chow's Chinese Forms is an on going discussion.
Well said.
Well the details actually are important and help to frame the context of what some study, as well as highlight the fact that there is more than one interpretation of Kenpo, and many works of Mr. Parker that are not related to the very mainstream motion based Kenpo most are familiar with. The Chinese elements explained and performed in a Western American context are evident in other Parker works.
As his best friend, (attested to by his son) I refute a great deal of what the Tracy's have said in some form. There has also been some strain between themselves and Al has distanced himself from Will on some of these issues. My personal gripe surrounds the fact that the Tracy's had left Mr. Parker over a couple of decades before he passed. Why publish such things after he is dead? There was plenty of time and opportunity to do so while Mr. Parker was alive and could confront the accusations personally.
Agreed sir, but that has already occurred here and is probably why there is so little response. Search the MT archives and you'll find plenty of reading on the subject, (and a few words from me on the topic as well)
Thank you sir for your courtesy and welcome to MartialTalk.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Thank you sir for your courtesy and welcome to MartialTalk.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Doc, i am happy to be aboard. And thank your for your courtesy and for your responses. I realized that a comment that I had made simply in the context of discussion suddenly had a great potential to go spinning out in a direction that I did not intend. I didn't want to find myself in the middle of a battle that I hadn't looked for, and that I, quite frankly, had no interest or motivation in winning.
As a Kenpo practitioner, I do not belong to any organizations or schools. I learned kenpo starting about 21 years ago when I was thirteen years old, but have focused my efforts in more recent years on training in other arts. But I find that I always return to kenpo, as it is my root in the martial arts. I just quietly train in my arts, and am often un-aware of who else is out there in the world. If you were a close personal friend of Mr. Parker, I would like to extend a sincere apology if anything i have written has come across as abraisive or insensitive to him or his art.
All the best,
Michael Schaefer
aka Flying Crane
Thank you, Doc, i am happy to be aboard. And thank your for your courtesy and for your responses. I realized that a comment that I had made simply in the context of discussion suddenly had a great potential to go spinning out in a direction that I did not intend. I didn't want to find myself in the middle of a battle that I hadn't looked for, and that I, quite frankly, had no interest or motivation in winning.
As a Kenpo practitioner, I do not belong to any organizations or schools. I learned kenpo starting about 21 years ago when I was thirteen years old, but have focused my efforts in more recent years on training in other arts. But I find that I always return to kenpo, as it is my root in the martial arts. I just quietly train in my arts, and am often un-aware of who else is out there in the world. If you were a close personal friend of Mr. Parker, I would like to extend a sincere apology if anything i have written has come across as abraisive or insensitive to him or his art.
All the best,
Michael Schaefer
aka Flying Crane
Doc
Senior Master
Thank you Mr. Schaefer but no apologies are neccessary. I always assume a persons intent and interest are honest until they give me reasons to think otherwise. I appreciate what you have to say, and the way you say it. I look forward to many discussions on various topics. MartialTalk is the place for civil arguments on all subjects pertaining to the arts.Flying Crane said:
I see you have been involved in Capoiera. I have a good friend, Dennis Newsome also in the art. He and I have recently done some camps together. Good guy.
Anyway once again, welcome aboard.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don't know Mr. Newsome. Do you happen to know with whom he trained? I was active in Capoeira for 7 or 8 years, starting at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and then moving to San Francisco and training with the ABADA group here. As I drifted more into the Chinese arts my Capoeira training tapered off, but, like Kenpo, I think it will always be a part of me because it was a very powerful experience. I know I am not as polished as I once was, but I can still play a pretty good game in the roda.Doc said:
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
Iwas told (from a reliable source) that when Capoeira was show cased at The IKC Long Beach it was ridiculed by a Kenpo Black Belt as just a dance routine, aparently Mr. Parker told this individual that , "that dance routine could put you on your ***"....many look ,but few see!
Rich
Rich
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