Tiger/Big Cat Styles

[Flying Crane]

I'm quite familiar with the process of researching, especially TCMAs.

Hung Ga is not "related" to Tibetan styles. It was influenced with certain techniques & theories, but it is stand alone Chinese. Lama Pai, Bak Hok, Hop Ga... those are related to Tibetan Lion's Roar. They are children of it. Hung Kuen borrowed from it. That no way makes it "related" to it that it would me if I borrowed your lawn mower.

Quoting Wiki doesn't do much for serious support to your position by the way.

I would also go so far as to say that the modern Tibetan systems are really Chinese. They were brought into China a long time ago and have become their own thing in the modern day. Thay are not the same as what they were when the Tibetan Lion's Roar was first developed back in the 1400s.

Yes, Wong Fei Hung did learn some aspects of the Tibetan method and incorporated that into the Tiger/Crane form. Those long swinging arms are from the Tibetan method. however, there is a lot of other stuff in that form, in the Crane techniques, that I do not recognize from the Tibetan method, and neither do I recognize them from what little I've seen of the Fukienese method. I just don't know where it came from, if it was influenced by some other crane method or if Hung Gar sort of had its own interpretation of crane. One big example of what I'm talking about is the single leg spreading wings stance, with the arms splitting out sideways to clear. I've never seen that move in any of our stuff, and it sort of doesn't follow our fundamental principles. It may be an effective technique, but structurally it doesn't quite match how we do things in the Tibetan method.

I don't believe any of the kenpo methods (most of which trace lineage back to Ed Parker or WIlliam CHow or James Mitose in Hawaii) can be considered tiger, even when they name their forms tiger and stuff. There's more to being a true animal system then simply having some tiger claw techniques in the curriculum. It's more than just hand techniques, it's more than just stances, there is an underlying fundamental method and set of principles that must drive the entire system, or else it's just a collection of stuff that may or may not work on their own merits. At least that's how my system is structured, and I'm making the assumption that a Chinese tiger system would work that way too.

 

[Flying Crane]

@Flying Crane
thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.

well, the only way to really get to this stuff is to find a teacher who is skilled and knowledgeable about the system. Doing some research, without workind solidly with a good instructor, will not get you there. It will only give you a very superficial understanding of what things are, probably so superficial that you develop a lot of misperceptions.

There are a lot of people who present themselves as skilled and knowledgeable, when in truth they are not, and they have largely made it up. They count on people not being well educated on the topic, and not being able to see thru the smokescreen. It's not easy to find the right teacher.

 

[clfsean]

I would also go so far as to say that the modern Tibetan systems are really Chinese. They were brought into China a long time ago and have become their own thing in the modern day. Thay are not the same as what they were when the Tibetan Lion's Roar was first developed back in the 1400s.

True enough if looking at it from the vassal/tribute state of China that Tibet had been for years.

Yes, Wong Fei Hung did learn some aspects of the Tibetan method and incorporated that into the Tiger/Crane form. Those long swinging arms are from the Tibetan method. however, there is a lot of other stuff in that form, in the Crane techniques, that I do not recognize from the Tibetan method, and neither do I recognize them from what little I've seen of the Fukienese method. I just don't know where it came from, if it was influenced by some other crane method or if Hung Gar sort of had its own interpretation of crane. One big example of what I'm talking about is the single leg spreading wings stance, with the arms splitting out sideways to clear. I've never seen that move in any of our stuff, and it sort of doesn't follow our fundamental principles. It may be an effective technique, but structurally it doesn't quite match how we do things in the Tibetan method.

That single legged posture almost reminds me of what/how I've seen Okinawans play in their Hakutsuru kata. Lends itself to Fujian & Hung Hei Goon was supposedly a tea merchant from Fujian. Speculative at best I know, but it kinda almost fits.

I don't believe any of the kenpo methods (most of which trace lineage back to Ed Parker or WIlliam CHow or James Mitose in Hawaii) can be considered tiger, even when they name their forms tiger and stuff. There's more to being a true animal system then simply having some tiger claw techniques in the curriculum. It's more than just hand techniques, it's more than just stances, there is an underlying fundamental method and set of principles that must drive the entire system, or else it's just a collection of stuff that may or may not work on their own merits. At least that's how my system is structured, and I'm making the assumption that a Chinese tiger system would work that way too.

I find very little in kenpo related to CMA except for brief glimpeses & personal recollections from CMA seniors I've heard things from. Not AY Wong's family branch either...

Like you, I've tried to get it across to people for a while that just because you put your hand in a tiger claw or leopard paw position, doesn't mean that's what you're doing. People who haven't come up in it, don't get it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

ok so you wander in to the CMA section and start telling FC he needs to research

And then correct CLF about Hung Ga and recommed research.......:lfao:

 

[Flying Crane]

It is what it is, look at it as a beginning to researching a topic.

sure, research needs to start somewhere. I'm just saying, sometimes we can recognize when a source just isn't telling us much. Don't take everything out there at face value.

 

[Flying Crane]

True enough if looking at it from the vassal/tribute state of China that Tibet had been for years.

yeah and this issue is in the mix as well, and recognizing that China is actually a big group of people from many different ethnic backgrounds, so what, really, is "Chinese" anyway?

That single legged posture almost reminds me of what/how I've seen Okinawans play in their Hakutsuru kata. Lends itself to Fujian & Hung Hei Goon was supposedly a tea merchant from Fujian. Speculative at best I know, but it kinda almost fits.

now that I think about it, I recall seeing an Okinawan folk dance years ago, and there was a movement that was strikingly similar

I find very little in kenpo related to CMA except for brief glimpeses & personal recollections from CMA seniors I've heard things from. Not AY Wong's family branch either...

Like you, I've tried to get it across to people for a while that just because you put your hand in a tiger claw or leopard paw position, doesn't mean that's what you're doing. People who haven't come up in it, don't get it.

complete agreement

 

[clfsean]

yeah and this issue is in the mix as well, and recognizing that China is actually a big group of people from many different ethnic backgrounds, so what, really, is "Chinese" anyway?

True enough... Language? Cultural ties? Money? Geo-political? All things apply to that one!!!

now that I think about it, I recall seeing an Okinawan folk dance years ago, and there was a movement that was strikingly similar

Yep & not just in Karate Kid II either.

complete agreement

Boffo...

 

[Xue Sheng]

True enough... Language?

Well there are Mandarin speakers, and then there is everyone else....even Devil talkers.


As to what is considered Chinese, generally in China it is anyone considerd Han, all others are minorities

 

[Flying Crane]

I just started a new thread, discussion about what makes something an animal style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

sure, research needs to start somewhere. I'm just saying, sometimes we can recognize when a source just isn't telling us much. Don't take everything out there at face value.

No no no...taiji was started by Zhang Sanfeng in the Yuan Dynasty ... or was it the Sung Dynasty.... oh wait it was the Ming Dynasty...or any of the other 8 or so times he was said to have lived....ummm well....he a Shaolin warrior...or a Taoist Alchemist or was it a monk....no wait a Confucian...and aaa well... he created it after he watched snake and a bird fight...oh wait no.....it was a cave...yeah that's it..he was led by a mysterious light into a cave where he found 2 golden snakes and a book that gave him the idea for taijiquan...err ummm he took it from the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu....oh wait never mind.... Zhang Sanfeng invented the martial art that martial art that was practiced by Wang Zhengnan which was most decidedly not Taijiquan....ahhh the hell with it....Chen Wangting invented it..

Now then....that's cleared up....lets move on to Xingyiquan that was invented by Yue Fei...no wait I meant to say Dai Long Bang...... and we all know Wing Chun comes from.....



Sorry could not resist

 

[Flying Crane]

No no no...taiji was started by Zhang Sanfeng in the Yuan Dynasty ... or was it the Sung Dynasty.... oh wait it was the Ming Dynasty...or any of the other 8 or so times he was said to have lived....ummm well....he a Shaolin warrior...or a Taoist Alchemist or was it a monk....no wait a Confucian...and aaa well... he created it after he watched snake and a bird fight...oh wait no.....it was a cave...yeah that's it..he was led by a mysterious light into a cave where he found 2 golden snakes and a book that gave him the idea for taijiquan...err ummm he took it from the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu....oh wait never mind.... Zhang Sanfeng invented the martial art that martial art that was practiced by Wang Zhengnan which was most decidedly not Taijiquan....ahhh the hell with it....Chen Wangting invented it..

Now then....that's cleared up....lets move on to Xingyiquan that was invented by Yue Fei...no wait I meant to say Dai Long Bang...... and we all know Wing Chun comes from.....



Sorry could not resist

YES to all of it!

 

[kfman]

The Five Family Style of Ark Y. Wong has the major 5 animals - Snake, Tiger, Dragon, Leopard and Crane (learned in that order). There are 5 forms for each. I know 3 tiger forms plus the Tiger-Crane set (slightly different than mainstream Hung-Gar). Besides clawing and hitting, a major aspect of the tiger is chin-na. We may not move exactly like a cat but we embody its spirit.

By the way - I have 33 years experience, certified to teach and have free classes in Los Angeles three times a week. It's free because I would have to pay the park $50 an hour otherwise and I get a big indoor space to practice. Send me message if interested.

 

[Chris Parker]

@Flying Crane
thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.

Perchance you stopped a little prematurely.... for example:

@WC_lun
tiger systems with japanese footwork? are you using the word kenpo for exclusively japanese MA or like the japanese do it for MA in general? just because they are deep stances it doesnt mean they are japanese, so what makes you think so?
from what i learned about tiger styles is that the earliest ones on which most others seem to base on relate to the black tiger style of shaolin and the hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.

I don't think you got what WC_lun was saying there, he wasn't saying that they were "Japanese tiger systems", just that they use the name. His comments were more that, even though the name is used (Tiger), that doesn't make it a "tiger" system in the Chinese sense.

But more to the point, what are you on about here? The Japanese using "kenpo" to refer to martial arts in general? What? Deep stances are not uniquely Japanese either, but more importantly, WC was saying that the Chinese tiger systems use deep stances, and he doesn't see it in Japanese systems.... you seem to have firstly misread everything he wrote, followed by a whole bunch of completely inaccurate statements with no real basis at all.

 

[Zoran]

There are some other systems that use Tiger in their names, but I do not believe they are actual tiger systems. A couple of kenpo derived systems come to mind, there is a White Tiger Kenpo in the Chicago area, under the direction of Tom Ammiano, his student posts here sometimes under the name ZREX. Mr. Ammiano is in the Ed Parker kenpo lineage thru McSweeny, he changed the system to meet his own designs. I do not know where the name Tiger comes from in this context.

Heard my ears ringing. No we are not a tiger system and the Tiger name in the system came from something John McSweeney said to Tom Saviano after watching some of his students fight.