Three stories

[tshadowchaser]

Seeing the thread on FMA masters reminded me of a couple of stories I feel need retelling. They all are about the same master (instructor) and from many years ago.
Remember things where different in the early years of the martial arts in this country and laws where also different.

1. While teaching class one night a stranger came into the school. This stranger watch politely and when the instructor acknowledged his presence the stranger introduced himself as a master of a different style who had just returned to the States from studying abroad.
   The stranger then asked if the instructor would care to a friendly test of skills with open hands. The rules where set at full contact. One block and counter punch later the stranger asked for medium contact, as he was hurting from the first punch. After being hit a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] time the stranger asked for light contact. The two then sparred for a short time and the stranger ended up on the floor a few times finally saying he could not match the instructors skill or power. A year or so later this stranger was being praised as the next great thing in martial arts by a certain magazine( which is no longer being published.
   
   
2. The 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] incident took place at a school about fifty miles from where the instructor taught. As the instructor and a couple of his students where walking along the city street he saw a sign on a school proclaiming high rank for this schools instructor. Being curious he and the students went in to watch. After a few minutes he disrupted the class proclaiming that the schools instructor was a phoney and challenging the instructor to a fight. Heated words where exchanged and it was decided that the students would fight to show what level of skill was known. These where not sparring matches but real fights with injury's occurring. When it was shown that much was needed in the way of skill and knowledge on the part of the schools students the two instructors took to the floor. When all was said and done the schools instructor agreed to close the school and not teach again anywhere in the area.
   
   
3. The third incident had no violence involved. This same instructor had a visitor to his place of teaching one night. The visitor claimed to be new to the area and said he would be opening a school some miles from the instructors place. The visitor gave his instructors name and stated what system he studied. After a few minutes of talking politely the instructor said he had an important call to make and asked the visitor to wait in the office while he made the call. When the party on the other end of the call answered the instructor introduced himself and asked if the other person knew of the visitor, explaining what the visitor had told him. After listening to the answer he hand the phone to the visitor. The visitor left the school shortly after but not before apologizing to the instructor for the incorrect information he had given. He never did open a school under that systems name. You see the instructor had called the head of the system named and been told that no rank anywhere near what the visitor had claimed had ever been awarded but rather that the visitor had a rather low rank and was self promoting

Now I offer these three stories as things that happened many many years ago knowing that in today's world at least two of them would be frowned upon by many and perhaps even end up in court. I would like to hear what people teaching today think about them

 

[geezer]

Interesting topic. Before passing any judgement, I agree that you have to consider the big picture, that is the times and the context or specific situation. I don't normally approve of crashing schools and challenging the instructor. In these times, if anyone crashed my little class I'd have them leave, maybe call building security or even 911. Not only am I unwilling to chance my health against a stranger, I would also not jeapardise myself or my group legally by brawling. There are plenty of guys around who can kick my butt. So what? We train for what to do when you can't avoid or escape a fight. That, and for fun ...and to stay healthy as I move into late middle age.

That said, if someone really is an out and out fraud, they are inviting trouble. Or, if someone calls everyone else in their syle "inferior" and claims to be the toughtest "street fighter" on the planet, issuing an "open challenge" to all comers in a major martial arts magazine (like one well known "grandmaster" actually did back in the late 80s) and then they get their butt kicked on video (yes, like what actually happened back in the late 80s) ...well in that case they had it coming I guess. Too bad though. In today's world it just tarnishes everybody in the MA.

So looking back on the scenarios outlined above:

In situation No. 1, the guy got a free lesson. Too bad it didn't sink in.

In situation No. 2, your instructor was taking a big risk in crashing the other guy's school. And, the other instructor would have been within his rights to refuse the challenge and call the cops if your instructor didn't leave. Or, if he felt seriously threatend, he might have done something crazy. I know one instructor you carries a gun all the time. Actually, I know several who do. Well, as you said, those were different times. In the context of that period I can understand why people felt that they had a right to challenge a fraud. But what about other folks. I've taken a lot of worthwhile MA classes from teachers who were not just about fighting. If only the best fighter in town had a right to open a school without getting beat up, a lot of great older coaches would have to quit, and all the schools in town would be run by the toughest thug around.

In situation No. 3, I'd say your instructor did exactly the right thing.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have always wondered what would have happened in the 2nd situation if the instructor I mentoned had lost the fight. Would he then have gone back and closed his school (I doubt it) . More likely he would have continued to practice then gone back after a time and tried again, makeing those future visits more of a test of his skill.

 

[Zenjael]

I have always wondered what would have happened in the 2nd situation if the instructor I mentoned had lost the fight. Would he then have gone back and closed his school (I doubt it) . More likely he would have continued to practice then gone back after a time and tried again, makeing those future visits more of a test of his skill.

I don't think, if he'd lost he should close his school, but I would lose respect for him if he didn't. And if he saw that kind of public disturbance as a way of growing, what example does he set for his students? But neither do I think the other should have closed their school either.

A teacher I had opened his dojo when he was a 1st dan, and 25 years later closed the doors with hundreds of black belts, and dozens of people who are undeniably among the best artists I've met, yet. But I am certain also, that while when I met him 2 decades after he opened and he seemed a genius, perhaps he did not so when he first began.

I would worry also that if this teacher forced a school to be closed, perhaps he also would force other people to give up the arts. Maybe those who tried to open their schools did.

I suppose what would redeem this master, morally in my eyes, is after these confrontations, he offered to teach the offender so they could live up to the potential they actually wanted to have, did not have, and tried to fake through. That... to me is a true teacher.

I have no doubt that this teacher was a highly integrous, and honorable person who wants(ed?) the pure integrity of the arts. I just hope he wasn't like another teacher I had who for years who would turn people away on whims. Only accepting those he deemed would succeed the most until a mother confronted him, asking he if he had the confidence in his own teaching he could teach anyone. He said yes, and immediately saw how he'd been a hypocrite, and stopped that practice that minute.

This whole post was about integrity. It just seems there's a lack of that, if the person defending the integrity did nothing afterward to repair it. In all likelihood these fakes just went elsewhere and tried again, duping others. I hope he trained them to be as good as he was. For the sake of all martial arts.

And intersting man though, do you have any other stories about him? He sounds like quite a character.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As a bit of context to where these responses come from: I do not teach professionally, as i still consider myself a student, however i have taught some basic things to friends, partially from my style, but more broadly self-defence.
in situation 1, i think the instructor just reacted naturally, but am curious about whether or not the visitor ever did become the next great thing, and in what field. If it was in point-sparring tournaments, that could easily make sense, in kuyokushin I would be incredibly shocked to hear that.
in situation 2, i think what he did was incredibly irresponsible. If he came into the area where i was teaching my friends, and did the same thing i would be apalled for three reasons. 1: risking the safety of not only my students (who have nothing to do with my teaching methods) but his own as well if he was incorrect, 2: even if i had the high rank the guy claimed, who knows if my style is about fighting in the terms were discussing, or i am afraid to use my full ability on him due to a possible lawsuit, and that is the only reason i was hurt 3:those students probably felt betrayed afterwards and quit martial arts for good, even if they had been enjoying it beforehand.
In situation 3, I completely respect what he did, and think it lucky he knew the original, however it doesn't stop the problem of the fake going to practice somewhere else. A bit confused, though, about why the instructor automatically felt the need to check up on the guy's story without hearing anything suggesting he was a fake or seeing him perform, especially when the guy was just being friendly. At least let the call wait for later, don't interrogate the guy being polite, with not so much as a hint they are lying.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Zenjael: He did offer to instruct the teacher and also the students but the teacher did not want any part of learning. A couple of the students did seek out other instruction. Unfortunately, yes, that other instructor did open up agaim in a different area. This was found out a year or so later.

Kempodisciple: 1. I do not know how long that person taught his art. I do know that because he claimed to be one of the few people in the world teaching his art he was a regular in Black belt Magizine for a few years, at least while he was buying advertiseing space.
2. I agree perhaphs it was irresponsible. But It was different time in the history of the martial arts world in this country. Those that where teaching had earned their rank through blood, sweat and sometimes tears. They did not look upon those that could not defend an art with favor. The only none combatant arts in those days where the few internal arts that where few and far between for most people.
3. From what I remember the gentelman in question made some statement(s) that alerted the instructor to the fact that perhaps some statements where not true. Plus the fact that the instrucrtor was friends with the Master whom the gentelman supposedly had rank from.

Yes there are more stories but not at this time

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

once again, going to respond to each of your responses of my responses to the situations.
1. ok, thank you. I was just wondering, nbd.
2. I understand its a different time and respect that was a common way to go about it. It's probably because I am part of the "new" generation, where things like that are against the status quo, but i just feel like it was a reckless thing to do, however the fact that he offered to instruct the teacher as a solution instead of just embarrassing him raises my opinion of the man
3. Ok, that makes more sense. I had a feeling that he said something, but you hadn't made a mention of it, which is why i found his response a bit odd/rude/off-putting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is all old school stuff and you cannot judge it by today’s standards IMO.

1.While teaching class one night a stranger came into the school. This stranger watch politely and when the instructor acknowledged his presence the stranger introduced himself as a master of a different style who had just returned to the States from studying abroad.
The stranger then asked if the instructor would care to a friendly test of skills with open hands. The rules where set at full contact. One block and counter punch later the stranger asked for medium contact, as he was hurting from the first punch. After being hit a 2nd time the stranger asked for light contact. The two then sparred for a short time and the stranger ended up on the floor a few times finally saying he could not match the instructors skill or power. A year or so later this stranger was being praised as the next great thing in martial arts by a certain magazine( which is no longer being published.

This is all ok to me and I wish this could go on today.

My Japanese Jujitsu teacher dealt with challenges (Boston area) and never lost. Also Dr Yang told a story of a challenge at YMAA in its early days that was pretty good but this is not what you are asking for

2.The 2nd incident took place at a school about fifty miles from where the instructor taught. As the instructor and a couple of his students where walking along the city street he saw a sign on a school proclaiming high rank for this schools instructor. Being curious he and the students went in to watch. After a few minutes he disrupted the class proclaiming that the schools instructor was a phoney and challenging the instructor to a fight. Heated words where exchanged and it was decided that the students would fight to show what level of skill was known. These where not sparring matches but real fights with injury's occurring. When it was shown that much was needed in the way of skill and knowledge on the part of the schools students the two instructors took to the floor. When all was said and done the schools instructor agreed to close the school and not teach again anywhere in the area.

TI do not agree with crashing schools, but with that said my Japanese jujitsu dealt with challenges sometimes in other schools. But he did not walk in and challenge anyone. He was generally invited to watch and then kind of sorta ambushed by a challenge once he got there, again he never lost. However I have no idea if the instructors he beat closed their school or not ad to be honest I do not think that he cared. But I suspect my Taiji sifu crashed a school that had opened up as "The Yang Chengfu school of Taijiquan". And if you go by old school rules (and in this he does) the only one in my area that could give permission for that is my sifu. I have no idea what happened, all I know is he was upset by the name and that shortly thereafter the school vanished

3.The third incident had no violence involved. This same instructor had a visitor to his place of teaching one night. The visitor claimed to be new to the area and said he would be opening a school some miles from the instructors place. The visitor gave his instructors name and stated what system he studied. After a few minutes of talking politely the instructor said he had an important call to make and asked the visitor to wait in the office while he made the call. When the party on the other end of the call answered the instructor introduced himself and asked if the other person knew of the visitor, explaining what the visitor had told him. After listening to the answer he hand the phone to the visitor. The visitor left the school shortly after but not before apologizing to the instructor for the incorrect information he had given. He never did open a school under that systems name. You see the instructor had called the head of the system named and been told that no rank anywhere near what the visitor had claimed had ever been awarded but rather that the visitor had a rather low rank and was self promoting

See above story about by Taijiquan sifu, but generally he does not much care if they are fake or not, and he tends to know if they are as it applies to most claiming a lineage to his teacher and Yang Chengfu. Hell I called a school on a false claim and asked to meet with them to talk (I did not crash them) about it not too long ago but they changed their story once I got there so I let it go (they claimed a lineage to my sifu and they did not have it).

My first CMA sifu got called on this by a member of the Chen family who told him to stop claiming lineage to the Chen family. I talked to the Chen family member about this and his response was basically “This is America so there is not much I can do, but in China things would be very different” Basically in China things would get much more publically embarrassing and very likely much more painful.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Seeing the thread on FMA masters reminded me of a couple of stories I feel need retelling. They all are about the same master (instructor) and from many years ago.
Remember things where different in the early years of the martial arts in this country and laws where also different.

tshadowchaser, I removed the numbered paragraphing as when I broke them up they all become "1". The rest is the same.

While teaching class one night a stranger came into the school. This stranger watch politely and when the instructor acknowledged his presence the stranger introduced himself as a master of a different style who had just returned to the States from studying abroad.
The stranger then asked if the instructor would care to a friendly test of skills with open hands. The rules where set at full contact. One block and counter punch later the stranger asked for medium contact, as he was hurting from the first punch. After being hit a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] time the stranger asked for light contact. The two then sparred for a short time and the stranger ended up on the floor a few times finally saying he could not match the instructors skill or power. A year or so later this stranger was being praised as the next great thing in martial arts by a certain magazine( which is no longer being published.

I have had this happen to me, when I was a brown belt and a black belt in the 80's and 90's. Someone walk in and want to take a class who was training or ranked in the same art at other schools locally. Most asked questions to try to stump me or to say that what they had was better. I usually invited them out if they were not already out on the floor to show the class, and then we would disect it. Look at it and see if it worked on everyone.

In one case this one just wanted to fight. I asked if he meant spar? He replied yea sure. I turned to the class and told them that I had already lost. If I refuse to take the challenge then people will wonder what is wrong with me and my instruction. If I take the challenge then what is wrong with me to have to prove myself in such a way. If I loose then people will wonder why. If I win, is it because of size and will this person then press charges. So I asked if he was serious. He said he was. I said class is dismissed (* it was near the end anyways *) and that after they all get dressed and leave I would lock the doors. He and I could spar or fight and the winner would be known between us and the other could say anything they wanted. He looked at me and left. Just got up and left. Nothing like the praise in a magazine though. So only similar overall.

The 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] incident took place at a school about fifty miles from where the instructor taught. As the instructor and a couple of his students where walking along the city street he saw a sign on a school proclaiming high rank for this schools instructor. Being curious he and the students went in to watch. After a few minutes he disrupted the class proclaiming that the schools instructor was a phoney and challenging the instructor to a fight. Heated words where exchanged and it was decided that the students would fight to show what level of skill was known. These where not sparring matches but real fights with injury's occurring. When it was shown that much was needed in the way of skill and knowledge on the part of the schools students the two instructors took to the floor. When all was said and done the schools instructor agreed to close the school and not teach again anywhere in the area.

I have never done this. I just get up and walk out being as polite as I can be.
There was one time I was invited to visit a club by a member. As he was not the ranking black belt, I brought my white belt with me to show I was open to learning. The person who invited me did not show up. So I started to change back to street clothes and leave. The head instructor said come on out and check out the class even after I told him about the invite. He smiled and stated that the person had not been there in months, maybe almost a year. I really did not want to leave nor did I want to stay and be a problem. He was insistant so I left. It was judo class, that was also teaching some new stuff that was just making the rounds (BJJ in the early90's). A black belt came over to me and said he would work with me as I was a white belt. We went through a few techniques. Not many when the instructor was working an artery choke with the forearm. The black belt working with me was doing a neck break and my neck and spine was being stretched. So I tapped. I asked if what he did was a break. He said no it was a choke. I said no it would break my neck. We did it again and I was talking to him. So not a real air choke and not taking away my blood flow to my brain as I could keep the conversation going for 30+ seconds. I had asked him to hold it there. So I tapped and said ok, I just do not get it. I was trying to pass it off as me, and maybe we could move on. He did not release and said I would pass out and tapping was not going to get me out of it. I tapped and siad let go. Others heard and had been listening, and were surprised by his actions, or at least their faces showed surprise. So I poked him in the neck, and then did a wrist lock to throw him off of me and rolled over into his guard and did the choke. I said this is the choke and he started tapping, and I said this is the break, and he was yelling STOP!. I then stood up and only the head instructor was standing. He looked upset. I was upset. I had determined my path to the exit and how many people I would have to hurt to get out of there. I asked for permission to leave. The instructor made a comment to the class and approached me and asked what was wrong. I requested permission to leave again. He asked what was wrong, as the guy on the floor was still not happy about the choke nor the neck wrench. I explained to him what happened, and then looked him the eyes with his arm around my shoulder, and I am leaving as I do not feel comfortable in this class anymore. He looked right back and said if I left he would loose face. He asked if I would go work with a guy who was huge (I am 6'3" and was 260 at the time.) as he was a white belt as well. We worked together for the class until there was a break and then I told the instructor I had to go. I left and never went back.

The third incident had no violence involved. This same instructor had a visitor to his place of teaching one night. The visitor claimed to be new to the area and said he would be opening a school some miles from the instructors place. The visitor gave his instructors name and stated what system he studied. After a few minutes of talking politely the instructor said he had an important call to make and asked the visitor to wait in the office while he made the call. When the party on the other end of the call answered the instructor introduced himself and asked if the other person knew of the visitor, explaining what the visitor had told him. After listening to the answer he hand the phone to the visitor. The visitor left the school shortly after but not before apologizing to the instructor for the incorrect information he had given. He never did open a school under that systems name. You see the instructor had called the head of the system named and been told that no rank anywhere near what the visitor had claimed had ever been awarded but rather that the visitor had a rather low rank and was self promoting

Now I offer these three stories as things that happened many many years ago knowing that in today's world at least two of them would be frowned upon by many and perhaps even end up in court. I would like to hear what people teaching today think about them

 

[jks9199]

Rich, you were way too nice about protecting that instructor. The guy could have turned into a lesson about control and safety for his class and about not underestimating based on belts. Instead he let it become about him... and endangered you and his students.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, you were way too nice about protecting that instructor. The guy could have turned into a lesson about control and safety for his class and about not underestimating based on belts. Instead he let it become about him... and endangered you and his students.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

JKS,

I was in my late 20's. I could say it was youth. I could say I was more concerned about his reputation. I could say I was concerned about who othes might perceive me. I think it was all of the above, as well as I did not want to fill out the paperwork. You know answer all the questions you (JKS) might ask when you showed up and wondered why someone got violent. It was the most quiet way to get out without making a scene.

 

[WaterGal]

Fighting some random guy that comes into your school just seems like asking for trouble. Not even because you might lose, but because you don't know them from Adam or know what in the world they're going to do. They could be totally crazy and do something actually dangerous, or be trying to get hurt so they can sue you, or pull out a knife, or who knows what. Just seems like bad news to me.

And even if the teacher is a phony, I think that stuff comes out in the wash, you know? If they're not any good people won't want to train with them and their school will close. No need to fight them to prove it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And even if the teacher is a phony, I think that stuff comes out in the wash, you know? If they're not any good people won't want to train with them and their school will close. No need to fight them to prove it.

Sadly in all the years I have been at this..... I have seen more than one school where that is not the case. There are a lot of people out there teaching that should not be and some of those are rather successful