This is probably a very stupid question, but I'll ask anyway.

[JowGaWolf]

This is probably a very stupid answer, but I'll answer anyway.

Because people are different. Different in size, experience, physiological make up, physiological make up, they were taught differently, they learn differently, and they teach differently. They have different belief systems, different cultures, different goals, dreams and opportunities.

People who have taught over the centuries have tried to do what they thought was best, be it traditional arts or non traditional arts.

Did they do a good job? Damned if I know.

Think about this for a second. If anyone here on this forum, grew up in some other part of the world, and fell in love with a completely different Martial Art(s) than they have now, and trained just as long and just as hard - think their opinions would be the same as they are? Maybe yes, but probably not, who's to say?

That's about the same answer I have. Everyone believes that something should be done harder or softer, or that someone should be tough like a tank instead of bending like a tree. Philosophies on fighting will shape how the techniques are done.

 

[marques]

If you can lay your hands on links to some of those videos, I'd love to take a look at some of that.

You're lucky. It was really easy to find. Now, get a coffee or something. It is long.

 

[Tez3]

There is an obsession with lineages in TMAs

I've not found that here, a well respected American poster (Exile) here some years ago suggested it was something that was prevalent in the USA more than anywhere else because Americans are more interested in their roots than Europeans etc. I've noticed myself on Wikipedia when they have something on an American they always put what country his parent's descendants come from, something you don't find on articles about people outside the US. Lineage of all sorts seems more important for Americans.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're lucky. It was really easy to find. Now, get a coffee or something. It is long.

You're right, there's a lot of commonality between those and what's in Daito-ryu/Aikido/NGA. A very different approach to them in some cases, but still quite similar from a technical perspective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've not found that here, a well respected American poster (Exile) here some years ago suggested it was something that was prevalent in the USA more than anywhere else because Americans are more interested in their roots than Europeans etc. I've noticed myself on Wikipedia when they have something on an American they always put what country his parent's descendants come from, something you don't find on articles about people outside the US. Lineage of all sorts seems more important for Americans.

It's also more prevalent in some arts than others. I suspect it's more prevalent in older arts, where "lineage" is a longer track, but that might be just where I've experienced it. My primary art is a fairly closed group (only in the US since 1962, and fairly small), so lineage is a matter of who your primary instructor is, for the most part.

 

[KabutoKouji]

I've not found that here, a well respected American poster (Exile) here some years ago suggested it was something that was prevalent in the USA more than anywhere else because Americans are more interested in their roots than Europeans etc. I've noticed myself on Wikipedia when they have something on an American they always put what country his parent's descendants come from, something you don't find on articles about people outside the US. Lineage of all sorts seems more important for Americans.

yeah that might be something to do with it deffo

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That clip doesn't give me anything to judge it by. His movement has both components. I'd have to see more of what he's doing to place his movement and technique on that continuum.

For me, when we speak of striking arts, the difference between hard and soft (not necessarily the same distinction Funakoshi was making - he didn't clarify it) is a matter of clashing. If you give me a round strike and I block it by dropping my weight and putting up a strong block that stops it dead, that is a "hard" block. If I use footwork to absorb part of the impact and diffuse it over time, or I parry it, that is a "soft" block. The hard block is clashing force against force, whereas the soft block uses other principles to diffuse the impact. With striking, the difference is less clear to me.

So the way that you define hard or soft is by it's "hard block" or "soft block" and not by it's punch.

I'm always interested to know why people may call a style "hard" or "soft". IMO, it's up to the individual and not up to the style. I can train a soft style (such as Taiji) the hard way. I can also train a style (such as Karate) the soft way.

Will you call this style hard or soft?

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the way that you define hard or soft is by it's "hard block" or "soft block" and not by it's punch.

I'm always interested to know why people may call a style "hard" or "soft". IMO, it's up to the individual and not up to the style. I can train a soft style (such as Taiji) the hard way. I can also train a style (such as Karate) the soft way.

Will you call this style hard or soft?

[/QUOTE]
It's got both. I see both hard and soft styles. I can see where yielding occurs and when brute force occurs. What's with the stomping though?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's got both. I see both hard and soft styles. I can see where yielding occurs and when brute force occurs. What's with the stomping though?

Is there any MA style that only has "hard block" and no "soft block"?

Baji has 3 different power generation:

- cross (horizontal) power,
- dropping (vertical) power,
- spiral power.

The foot stomping is used to develop both the dropping power and also the cross power (to coordinate front foot landing and punch ending at the same time).

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is an obsession with lineages in TMAs

This perception probably comes from the WC crowd who will bust a person in their head for getting it wrong lol. Most TMAs use their lineages as a reference point which helps them to better understand what is being taught. For example, Jow Ga has one main root from 1 of 5 brothers. Everyone (most people ) who does Jow Ga has learned it from one of the lineage of the 4 brothers. How Jow Ga is performed and the application of the techniques being used will vary depending on which lineage a person comes from. Now fast forward to modern times. This still holds true but each Sifu adds their own personality to the system where it's possible to tell which Jow Ga School you learned Jow Ga from. If there is ever any concern about the legitimacy of a school, it will be easy to verify through lineage in being that someone from an earlier lineage will be able to vouch for you.

Here's a real life example. A guy does Jow Ga and calls himself Sifu. He wins trophies and competitions and is recognized by outside organizations. If you want to find out if he is legitimate then you simply ask for his lineage and someone from that lineage will be able to verify. If his Sifu is still alive then his Sifu can verify directly. This is exactly what happened in this case. Someone asked this guy's sifu and the Sifu said that he never promoted the student to the title of Sifu and never made him an instructor.

You can do the same with me, and not only will my Sifu approve of me as instructor, but his Sifu would approve as well. So if you train under me, you would know that I'm not just making stuff up. Without lineage, you wouldn't have anyone to ask. It's not a perfect system but it does work from time to time. And you'll know right away if someone is lying simply by doing the research. Just a few months ago, someone did similar research on a TKD guy who made claims about his tkd rank.

Keep in mind that every system will not function the same. Some systems are really touchy about their lineage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is there any MA style that only has "hard block" and no "soft block"?

No but there are styles that lean more towards hard than soft. Jow Ga has both hard and soft techniques, but for the most part a lot of what we do is hard techniques where we smash at every opportunity. There are also techniques that can be done either soft or hard where we can guide or strike using he same technique. Our big punches do not have a soft application for them. We have some smaller circular techniques that do use soft applications to guide or to flow so as to not slow our ability to generate power for the following technique.

The foot stomping is used to develop both the dropping power and also the cross power (to coordinate front foot landing and punch ending at the same time).

Thanks. I didn't understand that. I train the dropping power as well but not in that manner. For Jow Ga we "sink" power downward which is different from the stomping.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This perception probably comes from the WC crowd who will bust a person in their head for getting it wrong lol. Most TMAs use their lineages as a reference point which helps them to better understand what is being taught. For example, Jow Ga has one main root from 1 of 5 brothers.

As far as Shuai Chiao, there are styles such as Baoding, Beijing, Tiejing, Mongolian, Xingsi, Yi. As far as I know, I have not heard any Shuai Chiao style claims that it's superior that others.

As far as long fist, there are styles such as Tsa, Hwa, Hong, Tang, Pao. Also nobody ever claims his style is superior than others.

The style of WC is quite "unique".

 

[JowGaWolf]

As far as Shuai Chiao, there are styles such as Baoding, Beijing, Tiejing, Mongolian, Xingsi, Yi. As far as I know, I have not heard any Shuai Chiao style claims that it's superior that others.

As far as long fist, there are styles such as Tsa, Hwa, Hong, Tang, Pao. Also nobody ever claims his style is superior than others.

The style of WC is quite "unique".

I don't think lineages classify who is better. It just helps students to better understand the teachings. Wing Chun also has different styles and certain lineages do things a different way that other lineages. I don't think WC is unique, some of the same techniques used in Wing Chun can be found in other systems as well. I can easily show similar techniques used in Jow Ga for some of the stuff here. Technique at 2:33 is Hung Ga Tiger

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think WC is unique, ...

I say "WC is unique" as only WC guys like to put down other WC guys. You just don't hear one Judo guy who tells other Judo guys, "You guys are all doing Judo wrong".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I say "WC is unique" as only WC guys like to put down other WC guys. You just don't hear one Judo guy who tells other Judo guys, "You guys are all doing Judo wrong".

Oh sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree completely with you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So the way that you define hard or soft is by it's "hard block" or "soft block" and not by it's punch.

I'm always interested to know why people may call a style "hard" or "soft". IMO, it's up to the individual and not up to the style. I can train a soft style (such as Taiji) the hard way. I can also train a style (such as Karate) the soft way.

Will you call this style hard or soft?

Again, can't say without seeing it in use. Hard, to me, is a matter of clashing - force-on-force for maximum impact. That's not something that will show completely in a one-man form.

And, no, it's not just the block. The block is just where this clash shows most easily, and has the clearest distinction.

EDIT: And I agree that it's not necessarily about the style. There are some styles that are inherently harder or softer. There are also people who tend toward the harder or softer end of a style. And there are styles that reach well toward both the hard and soft ends of the spectrum within that single style.

 

[Buka]

I've not found that here, a well respected American poster (Exile) here some years ago suggested it was something that was prevalent in the USA more than anywhere else because Americans are more interested in their roots than Europeans etc. I've noticed myself on Wikipedia when they have something on an American they always put what country his parent's descendants come from, something you don't find on articles about people outside the US. Lineage of all sorts seems more important for Americans.

I don't know. It might be more prevalent in TMAs, but I don't know many who much care about it, outside of their direct Instructor. And I know a whole lot of American Martial artists. I mean a **** load.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know. It might be more prevalent in TMAs, but I don't know many who much care about it, outside of their direct Instructor. And I know a whole lot of American Martial artists. I mean a **** load.

That has been mostly my experience. I've met a few who were deeply into lineage, but most I know only care about it as a matter of curiosity - a sort of "that's cool" discussion - or for practical reasons, where lineage splits would predict different approaches and even different use of terms.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know. It might be more prevalent in TMAs, but I don't know many who much care about it, outside of their direct Instructor. And I know a whole lot of American Martial artists. I mean a **** load.

As I said though it was Exile's thought rather than mine, I've never noticed many bothering with actual lineages here much.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think those who know that their lineage is solid, don't feel much need to bicker and argue about it.

While it is far from perfect, it does act as something of a quality control in TMA when the instructional lineage is known.